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Author Topic: Aristotle  (Read 4334 times)

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Offline PG

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Aristotle
« on: May 28, 2018, 06:52:49 PM »
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  • I have been studying aristotle today.  And, it hasn't taken me long to find some problems with him.  

    First, it seems that aristotle argues(or appeals to) from authority, which is a logical fallacy.  Neither aristotle nor a synthesis of historical philosophy is synonymous with authority.  A medium presenting the simple as complex and the complex as simple is shekhinah, which is not of God.  

    Second, 2 + 2 = 4.  But, 4 does not only = 2 + 2.  That is an error.  Drawing conclusions a posteriori(from the latter) or empirically as aristotle does will do just that.  

    That seems to be aristotle in a nutshell.  I am not interested in channeling his company.  And that says a lot about a lot.  



    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15


    Offline Motorede

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #1 on: May 28, 2018, 08:04:01 PM »
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  • I have been studying aristotle today.  And, it hasn't taken me long to find some problems with him.  

    First, it seems that aristotle argues(or appeals to) from authority, which is a logical fallacy.  Neither aristotle nor a synthesis of historical philosophy is synonymous with authority.  A medium presenting the simple as complex and the complex as simple is shekhinah, which is not of God.  

    Second, 2 + 2 = 4.  But, 4 does not only = 2 + 2.  That is an error.  Drawing conclusions a posteriori(from the latter) or empirically as aristotle does will do just that.  

    That seems to be aristotle in a nutshell.  I am not interested in channeling his company.  And that says a lot about a lot.  
    Saint Thomas referred to Aristotle as THE Philosopher. He thought that Aristotle's "hylomorphism" was the best explanation for how the seven sacraments work. 


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #2 on: May 28, 2018, 09:14:58 PM »
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  • You're an idiot.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline PG

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #3 on: May 28, 2018, 09:30:46 PM »
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  • Saint Thomas referred to Aristotle as THE Philosopher. He thought that Aristotle's "hylomorphism" was the best explanation for how the seven sacraments work.
    It makes me wonder what the church taught about eucharistic sacramental validity prior to Aquinas.  And by that I mean what regards the form of the sacrament, and if there was an identified defined form.  Because, I can tell you that I won't ever be consuming unconsecrated unleavened bread outside of mass(form) and consumption(intention) by the priest.  Yet, without form and intention, the matter of the sacrament remains still only unconsecrated unleavened bread.  

    Does aristotle teach anything about or relevant to intention in regards to sacramental theology?
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Motorede

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #4 on: May 28, 2018, 09:37:12 PM »
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  • It makes me wonder what the church taught about eucharistic sacramental validity prior to Aquinas.  And by that I mean what regards the form of the sacrament, and if there was an identified defined form.  Because, I can tell you that I won't ever be consuming unconsecrated unleavened bread outside of mass(form) and consumption(intention) by the priest.  Yet, without form and intention, the matter of the sacrament remains still only unconsecrated unleavened bread.  

    Does aristotle teach anything about or relevant to intention in regards to sacramental theology?
    No, Aristotle did not teach anything about the sacraments because he lived before Our Lord instituted the sacraments.


    Offline PG

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #5 on: May 28, 2018, 09:42:31 PM »
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  • No, Aristotle did not teach anything about the sacraments because he lived before Our Lord instituted the sacraments.
    I am aware of that.  And, that is not what I asked.  If matter and form are so intimate to sacramental theology, then surely aristotle has something to say that mirrors(or the contrary) intention(as a concept)/its importance to reality(sacraments are a reality).  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline PG

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #6 on: May 28, 2018, 09:45:45 PM »
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  • Motorede - THE philosopher in my opinion is John the Baptist.  "Make straight the way of the Lord".  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #7 on: May 28, 2018, 09:50:39 PM »
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  • It's important that you understand how very stupid it is to say that you've been studying Aristotle for a day and have "found some problems with him."  I've lately resolved to try to be more gentle but the sort of arrogance required to say what you did is something that I'm not sure can be pointed out any other way, but I'm sorry if I was needlessly curt.
    .
    Aristotle was a metaphysician, not a sacramentalist, and not a theologian.  The sort of stuff Aristotle is talking about precedes all the rest; it's necessary background, necessary fundamentals before you can even speak intelligibly about there being anything at all, never mind sacraments.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline PG

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #8 on: May 29, 2018, 12:25:27 AM »
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  • The sort of stuff Aristotle is talking about precedes all the rest; it's necessary background, necessary fundamentals before you can even speak intelligibly about there being anything at all, never mind sacraments.
    That is nonsense.  You make aristotle out to be a cult leader.  We might as we forbid all children to speak as well if this is the case.   Aristotle wasn't joking when he said that "the educated differ from the uneducated as much as the living from the dead."  Let us contrast that with the sacred scriptures.  

    "Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him."

    "For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what you must say."

    "Hold the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me in faith, and in the love which is in Christ Jesus."

    "But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such."





    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Smedley Butler

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #9 on: May 29, 2018, 07:27:49 AM »
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  • I agree with PG.

    The early Christians fought to keep a lot of pagan Greek philosophy out of the Church. 

    They were right.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #10 on: May 29, 2018, 08:27:17 AM »
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  • Aristotle's philosophical concepts regarding matter, form, substance, and essence were adopted to an extent by the Church when she defined transubstantiation.  Also, as the Church promoted St. Thomas and scholasticism in general, much of the scholastic system owes a great debt to Aristotle.  This does not mean that Aristotle had everything right ... but many of his core concepts regarding ontology were spot on and endorsed by the Church.  Aristotle found the right balance after all the work of Plato and many pre-Socrated philosophers.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #11 on: May 29, 2018, 09:32:37 AM »
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  • That is nonsense.  You make aristotle out to be a cult leader.  We might as we forbid all children to speak as well if this is the case.   Aristotle wasn't joking when he said that "the educated differ from the uneducated as much as the living from the dead."  Let us contrast that with the sacred scriptures.  

    "Jesus answered, and said to him: If any one love me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and will make our abode with him."

    "For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what you must say."

    "Hold the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me in faith, and in the love which is in Christ Jesus."

    "But Jesus said to them: Suffer the little children, and forbid them not to come to me: for the kingdom of heaven is for such."
    .
    If you want to talk about him, let's talk about him.
    .
    When you said you were "studying Aristotle today" I assumed you meant that you had gotten a book by someone (a professional philosopher in the Aristotelian tradition, hopefully) that discusses Aristotle's thoughts.  Now it sounds like you're just googling "Aristotle quotes" because the uneducated/educated quote isn't in any of his work so far as I'm aware, it's something Diogenes attributed to him, and it's something that you're only going to discover if you're researching Aristotle by just googling "things Aristotle said."  But that's no way to learn about what someone taught and believed, is it?
    .
    One of Aristotle's many contributions to western thought, and indeed to Christendom later, was the crystallization and incorporation of the principle of non-contradiction.  Mainly, that a thing cannot both be and not be in the same respect.  This is an axiom that supports other truths, it's something that you need to "get out of the way" (i.e., establish) before you can talk intelligibly about most things, including religion.  For, if we're uncertain whether or not a thing can be and not be in the same respect, then how can we ever be certain (or even make sense) of the idea that there is a God who is immutable?  Or that there is a God at all? Since, without such a principle, there very well might be and not be a God.  Or, there might be a God who's immutable some of the time, but not the rest of the time.  And so on.  
    .
    That the educated and uneducated are as different as the living and the dead is, in light of the principle of non-contradiction, true.  Notice that he doesn't say the poorly educated, but the uneducated.  Certain things mutually exclude each other: like education and uneducation.  Like being alive and being dead.  The quote isn't saying that those who aren't highly intelligent are better off dead, it's saying that the difference in education between a man who has it and a man who doesn't is the difference between a man who has life and doesn't.  But this quote of his isn't something from any of his works anyways, but something Diogenes just said he said when he was asked about education, so it's hardly even something that one should be mounting any strong case for anything about or against anyways.
    .
    Such is the case with Aristotle's metaphysics writ large.  The whole of them deal with the nature of being and change as such.  These are the sorts of things that need to be understood before we even talk about religion because they establish the very nature and existence of such a thing as truth, of there being substances (rather than just ever-fluctuating accidents), of things being ordered toward an end, and so on.  It is of course possible to believe the Catholic faith without ever knowing that Aristotle existed, but it's hardly possible to go beyond that-- to defend it, to understand it on a deeper level, or to crystallize or tease out any of the implications of Catholic teaching.  It's not surprise that Aristotle's metaphysics have been used in solemn councils.  That's how seriously she takes this system of thought.
    .
    When Aristotle began to be resuscitated and known in the west, he was quickly incorporated into the Church's teaching, probably first with the development of the word "transubstantiation," a distinguishable and now standard word to describe what happens at the consecration, a word that didn't exist until the eleventh century or so. Once St. Thomas "baptized" Aristotle's thought, it became adopted about as officially as possible by the Church as her own philosophy.   The Aristotelian Thomist system (or just Thomist system, since the two are indistinguishable in most of the ways that count) is an intellectual bulwark supporting the entire corpus of theological argumentation and demonstration.  Since St. Thomas, the Church's most solemn teachings have incorporated Aristotelian metaphysics, probably most notably in the Council of Trent's teachings on justification and its causes.  Anytime we speak of substance, of teleology, of matter and form, of holymorphic unions, or most of the rest, we're using the distinctions and system Aristotle most notably developed and applying them in the Tradition of St. Thomas.  It is not a small thing to glibly reject Aristotelian metaphysics, in fact, Pope St. Pius X prescribed this thought system as the principal antidote and protection against modernism.
    .
    Much more could be said, but I'll stop before I get too digressive.  
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline PG

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #12 on: May 29, 2018, 01:40:06 PM »
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  • Mythran - I began by reading a 1955 imprimatur on history of philosophy by thonnard.  However, things became concerning when I reached aristotles logical order with a posteriori approach to matter and a priori approach to form.  This system seems to facilitate the opposite of what occurred in the garden of eden.  In the garden of eden, man names the animals, which I think we can regard as facilitating their Form(that which can change, and does not constitute what in essence it is).  Whereas God created the animals, which facilitates their Matter(that which does not change, and constitutes what in essence it is).  We cannot know the matter(as aristotle suggest we can by empirical evidence(awfully presumptive)), because, it is God who is their material author.  But, we can know the form(which I suspect aristotle suggests we cannot know as a result of abstract reasoning), because man who names and even tames them is the author of their form.




     

    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline PG

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #13 on: May 29, 2018, 01:46:54 PM »
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  • This aristotle logic system also may be in line with modern gender confusion.  The matter which does not change is subject to the creature as opposed to the author of the creature.  This is evidenced by a man undergoing surgery to become a woman so on so forth.  And, the form, which can change, is now unchangeable, as evidenced by the born gαy always gαy and once gender confused always gender confused thinking.  
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline PG

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    Re: Aristotle
    « Reply #14 on: May 29, 2018, 02:20:01 PM »
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  • Mythran - I began by reading a 1955 imprimatur on history of philosophy by thonnard.  However, things became concerning when I reached aristotles logical order with a posteriori approach to matter and a priori approach to form.  This system seems to facilitate the opposite of what occurred in the garden of eden.  In the garden of eden, man names the animals, which I think we can regard as facilitating their Form(that which can change, and does not constitute what in essence it is).  Whereas God created the animals, which facilitates their Matter(that which does not change, and constitutes what in essence it is).  We cannot know the matter(as aristotle suggest we can by empirical evidence(awfully presumptive)), because, it is God who is their material author.  But, we can know the form(which I suspect aristotle suggests we cannot know as a result of abstract reasoning), because man who names and even tames them is the author of their form.
    It seems to me that aristotle will more so bolster modernism as opposed to the opposite.  For the modernist, form is so abstract that it is rendered meaningless, hence the openness to continual change due to the irrelevance of it.  The model modernist priest is basically a hippie, and that is basically what the peripatetics were.  However, unlike enoch, God did not take them. 
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15