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Poll

St. Paul talks about the "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

No way, what a nutty thought!
1 (2.9%)
Who cares! Irrelevant. Get lost newbie trash!
1 (2.9%)
Maybe, no way to know...
7 (20.6%)
Yes, it started sometime before Vatican II (please specifiy)
11 (32.4%)
Yes, it started with the promulgation of Vatican II
12 (35.3%)
Yes, it started with the new "Synodal Church" of Francis
2 (5.9%)

Total Members Voted: 33

Author Topic: Are we in the Great Apostasy?  (Read 11405 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2024, 10:00:41 AM »

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Are we really supposed to imagine a future time when Catholics the world over get a happy respite of a couple decades and basically everybody becomes Trad and that none of them remember these wretched days of heresy, apostasy, schisms, and the near total destruction of the Catholic Church and fall for some antichristic deception in mass droves? History cannot pass over the last 65 years of devastation and conflict in silence - no one would ever forget this dark time. Parents would tell their children about it until the end of the world, all the Catholic schools would teach it in their history courses. That is, unless every single one of the millions of books, articles, magazines, and destroyed, and every single person alive who sees and understands the current state of things is dead. 

What do you think of Bishop Sanborn's comment, "If this isn't the Great Apostasy - I don't know what is".
You're oversimplifying it.  There would be a period of peace, let's say 40-50 years.  Then the Holy Emperor dies and his kingdom is split up into 10 kingdoms.  Then the decline begins.  This could take another 40 years.  Then the antichrist comes onto the scene, as a young prodigy and fights battles at a young age, say 18.  (The Church Fathers say that the antichrist will be a military genius at a young age).  


The 10 kings start bickering with one another, the world becomes more lax, the previous religious fervor declines.  The antichrist doesn't come into power until age 30 (to mock Our Lord).  So from age 18-30 there are political skirmishes as the 10 kings jockey for power. 

40 years of peace.
40 years of post-peace, moral decline.
12 years of war, with a young pre-antichrist winning battles.
52 years later, the antichrist gains power.

Very reasonable.  It's been roughly 50 years since the end of the Vietnam war.  It's been a longer time since V2.  What young adult in their 20s or 30s even CARES about V2 or Vietnam?  What adults in their 40s or 50s care about Vietnam?  They weren't alive.  Same for V2.

I think you underestimate the power of time and the short attention-span of the avg human being.

Offline Yeti

  • Supporter
Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2024, 10:20:56 AM »
It is the nature of prophecy that it's meaning is not made clear until AFTER its fulfillment
.

This.

I think a lot of the focus on supposed private revelations is mostly a waste of time. God does not want us to see the future. I don't know of any prophecy that was correctly interpreted before it happened. I am interested in hearing if anyone can provide a counterexample.


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I am asking here "Are we in the Great Apostasy?


Well, nearly everyone who had the faith a few decades ago no longer has it. Hundreds of millions of people simultaneously abandoned the faith. The faith is about one hundred-thousandth of what it was less than a lifetime ago. This disaster is several orders of magnitude worse than anything that has happened in the entire 2,000 years of the Church. If this isn't enough for us to know we are in the great apostasy, then I don't know what would be.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2024, 10:24:04 AM »
The most recent example of real-life "forgetting of history"...+ABL, Pope Benedict and the motu mass.

+ABL died in the early 90s.  Fast forward only 25 years when Benedict issued his "motu mass" in 2005.  Benedict argued that "+ABL's fight" was over.  Tradition and V2 could co-exist.  The "motu mass" was new-rome's peace offering to Trads.

How many young adults in the 2000s left Tradition and accepted the indult?  A good %.
How many younger Trads (less than 50 yrs old) go to both Trad and indult, depending on the situation?  A higher %. 
How many younger Trads these days still go to the sspx/Tradition but think the indult is "ok to attend, sometimes"?  A very high %.

So it only took 25 years for Trads who were born in the 80s (i.e. Millenials) to give up the Faith.  They didn't know +ABL; they were too young.  All they know are stories.  Then +Benedict comes along and practices "revisionist history" and BOOM, people buy it because a) they don't care about history, b) they think their parents are too extreme, and c) they don't take their Faith seriously.

It doesn't take long for times to change.  The "next generation" (i.e. 20-30 years) doesn't care about history as much as you think.  They care about the NOW.

Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2024, 10:31:18 AM »
Before the antichrist comes, the Catholic Monarchy and the Holy Roman Empire will return.  All of the world is awash in democracy/republic forms of govt.  But the Monarchy will return.  We are living in the End Times (plural) but not the End Time (antichrist).  We are in the end of the 5th age, with the 6th age upon us (short peace) and then the final 7th age (antichrist) to come.
The great Monarch would have come if Russia was consecrated as asked.  Prophecy is conditional.  In the end, we will have a shorter period of peace when those who are left on the earth will be converted to the true faith.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2024, 10:33:26 AM »
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I think you may be underestimating the need for our species to have a historical link to the past, especially for Catholics, where the history of our faith is one of the strongest proofs for its veracity against its critics. 
Most people live for the now.  I think you're overestimating the care about history.  Most people nowadays care about what's on tik tok and what's the next, new restaurant.

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It is the nature of prophecy that it's meaning is not made clear until AFTER its fulfillment
Not all prophecies are shrouded in ambiguity.  Many are quite clear, especially as we get closer.  

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 - thus I am asking here "Are we in the Great Apostasy? Even after prophecy has been fully revealed, the truth of it can still be rejected, i.e. Jesus rejected as Messias by the Jєωs. Some argue that the 10 Kingdoms are the EU and the 7 kings are the false popes. Could not the Great Apostasy be a prolonged event? Could not the period of peace be a period of "spiritual" peace for the elect?
I think we are in a pre-figurement of the times of antichrist.  We are at war with the 'agents' of antichrist, which Our Lady will defeat.  In the end time, Our Lord will defeat the actual antichrist.

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Is it even a possibility to you that the Great Apostasy is happening or already has happened and that part of us getting ready for the Antichrist - so as to be able to reject him - is in some way dependent on acknowledging this?
Oh sure, it's possible.  But too many things don't line up for it to be the Great one.  I think our times prefigure the actual end time.