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Poll

St. Paul talks about the "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

No way, what a nutty thought!
1 (2.9%)
Who cares! Irrelevant. Get lost newbie trash!
1 (2.9%)
Maybe, no way to know...
7 (20.6%)
Yes, it started sometime before Vatican II (please specifiy)
11 (32.4%)
Yes, it started with the promulgation of Vatican II
12 (35.3%)
Yes, it started with the new "Synodal Church" of Francis
2 (5.9%)

Total Members Voted: 33

Author Topic: Are we in the Great Apostasy?  (Read 10229 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2024, 10:00:41 AM »
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    Are we really supposed to imagine a future time when Catholics the world over get a happy respite of a couple decades and basically everybody becomes Trad and that none of them remember these wretched days of heresy, apostasy, schisms, and the near total destruction of the Catholic Church and fall for some antichristic deception in mass droves? History cannot pass over the last 65 years of devastation and conflict in silence - no one would ever forget this dark time. Parents would tell their children about it until the end of the world, all the Catholic schools would teach it in their history courses. That is, unless every single one of the millions of books, articles, magazines, and destroyed, and every single person alive who sees and understands the current state of things is dead. 

    What do you think of Bishop Sanborn's comment, "If this isn't the Great Apostasy - I don't know what is".
    You're oversimplifying it.  There would be a period of peace, let's say 40-50 years.  Then the Holy Emperor dies and his kingdom is split up into 10 kingdoms.  Then the decline begins.  This could take another 40 years.  Then the antichrist comes onto the scene, as a young prodigy and fights battles at a young age, say 18.  (The Church Fathers say that the antichrist will be a military genius at a young age).  


    The 10 kings start bickering with one another, the world becomes more lax, the previous religious fervor declines.  The antichrist doesn't come into power until age 30 (to mock Our Lord).  So from age 18-30 there are political skirmishes as the 10 kings jockey for power. 

    40 years of peace.
    40 years of post-peace, moral decline.
    12 years of war, with a young pre-antichrist winning battles.
    52 years later, the antichrist gains power.

    Very reasonable.  It's been roughly 50 years since the end of the Vietnam war.  It's been a longer time since V2.  What young adult in their 20s or 30s even CARES about V2 or Vietnam?  What adults in their 40s or 50s care about Vietnam?  They weren't alive.  Same for V2.

    I think you underestimate the power of time and the short attention-span of the avg human being.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
    « Reply #16 on: November 21, 2024, 10:20:56 AM »
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  • It is the nature of prophecy that it's meaning is not made clear until AFTER its fulfillment
    .

    This.

    I think a lot of the focus on supposed private revelations is mostly a waste of time. God does not want us to see the future. I don't know of any prophecy that was correctly interpreted before it happened. I am interested in hearing if anyone can provide a counterexample.


    Quote
    I am asking here "Are we in the Great Apostasy?


    Well, nearly everyone who had the faith a few decades ago no longer has it. Hundreds of millions of people simultaneously abandoned the faith. The faith is about one hundred-thousandth of what it was less than a lifetime ago. This disaster is several orders of magnitude worse than anything that has happened in the entire 2,000 years of the Church. If this isn't enough for us to know we are in the great apostasy, then I don't know what would be.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
    « Reply #17 on: November 21, 2024, 10:24:04 AM »
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  • The most recent example of real-life "forgetting of history"...+ABL, Pope Benedict and the motu mass.

    +ABL died in the early 90s.  Fast forward only 25 years when Benedict issued his "motu mass" in 2005.  Benedict argued that "+ABL's fight" was over.  Tradition and V2 could co-exist.  The "motu mass" was new-rome's peace offering to Trads.

    How many young adults in the 2000s left Tradition and accepted the indult?  A good %.
    How many younger Trads (less than 50 yrs old) go to both Trad and indult, depending on the situation?  A higher %. 
    How many younger Trads these days still go to the sspx/Tradition but think the indult is "ok to attend, sometimes"?  A very high %.

    So it only took 25 years for Trads who were born in the 80s (i.e. Millenials) to give up the Faith.  They didn't know +ABL; they were too young.  All they know are stories.  Then +Benedict comes along and practices "revisionist history" and BOOM, people buy it because a) they don't care about history, b) they think their parents are too extreme, and c) they don't take their Faith seriously.

    It doesn't take long for times to change.  The "next generation" (i.e. 20-30 years) doesn't care about history as much as you think.  They care about the NOW.

    Offline Michelle

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    Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
    « Reply #18 on: November 21, 2024, 10:31:18 AM »
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  • Before the antichrist comes, the Catholic Monarchy and the Holy Roman Empire will return.  All of the world is awash in democracy/republic forms of govt.  But the Monarchy will return.  We are living in the End Times (plural) but not the End Time (antichrist).  We are in the end of the 5th age, with the 6th age upon us (short peace) and then the final 7th age (antichrist) to come.
    The great Monarch would have come if Russia was consecrated as asked.  Prophecy is conditional.  In the end, we will have a shorter period of peace when those who are left on the earth will be converted to the true faith.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
    « Reply #19 on: November 21, 2024, 10:33:26 AM »
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    I think you may be underestimating the need for our species to have a historical link to the past, especially for Catholics, where the history of our faith is one of the strongest proofs for its veracity against its critics. 
    Most people live for the now.  I think you're overestimating the care about history.  Most people nowadays care about what's on tik tok and what's the next, new restaurant.

    Quote
    It is the nature of prophecy that it's meaning is not made clear until AFTER its fulfillment
    Not all prophecies are shrouded in ambiguity.  Many are quite clear, especially as we get closer.  

    Quote
     - thus I am asking here "Are we in the Great Apostasy? Even after prophecy has been fully revealed, the truth of it can still be rejected, i.e. Jesus rejected as Messias by the Jєωs. Some argue that the 10 Kingdoms are the EU and the 7 kings are the false popes. Could not the Great Apostasy be a prolonged event? Could not the period of peace be a period of "spiritual" peace for the elect?
    I think we are in a pre-figurement of the times of antichrist.  We are at war with the 'agents' of antichrist, which Our Lady will defeat.  In the end time, Our Lord will defeat the actual antichrist.

    Quote
    Is it even a possibility to you that the Great Apostasy is happening or already has happened and that part of us getting ready for the Antichrist - so as to be able to reject him - is in some way dependent on acknowledging this?
    Oh sure, it's possible.  But too many things don't line up for it to be the Great one.  I think our times prefigure the actual end time.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
    « Reply #20 on: November 21, 2024, 10:35:57 AM »
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    The great Monarch would have come if Russia was consecrated as asked.
    Maybe.  Many prophecies say he will reign for 25 years, some say a 100 (including his holy successors).  He will definitely reign, I have no doubt.  Our Lady's peace is not a prophecy (anymore); it's a promise.  And if there will be a peace, I say that God will return his Church (and the world) to His preferred method of government -- a monarchy.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
    « Reply #21 on: November 21, 2024, 10:40:58 AM »
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    I don't know of any prophecy that was correctly interpreted before it happened.
    :confused::confused::confused:  The 3 wise men (and they weren't even Jєωιѕн) correctly interpreted the prophecies and traveled to Bethlehem to see the new king.  Holy Simeon in the temple interpreted Christ's birth as being the Savior, and he foretold to Our Lady that she would suffer much.  Many prophecies concerning Christ were quite simple - born of a virgin, the house of David, etc.

    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
    « Reply #22 on: November 21, 2024, 11:13:23 AM »
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  • :confused::confused::confused:  The 3 wise men (and they weren't even Jєωιѕн) correctly interpreted the prophecies and traveled to Bethlehem to see the new king.  Holy Simeon in the temple interpreted Christ's birth as being the Savior, and he foretold to Our Lady that she would suffer much.  Many prophecies concerning Christ were quite simple - born of a virgin, the house of David, etc.
    Those are instance of prophesies correctly interpreted after they happened. :laugh2:


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
    « Reply #23 on: November 21, 2024, 12:27:02 PM »
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    Those are instance of prophesies correctly interpreted after they happened. :laugh2: title=laugh2
    Uhhh... no, they aren't.  The 3 Kings and Holy Simeon knew the prophecies and what to look for.  Then they found it, in Christ.  Many didn't know the prophecies and never recognized Christ.  Duh.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
    « Reply #24 on: November 22, 2024, 03:54:39 PM »
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  • St Jerome says that (ALL Ecclesiastical writers agree...i.e. unanimous) - the "Kingdom of the Romans" will be destroyed before antichrist arises to power. 
    Part of this looks like a hyperlink but is not.
    Where is the source for this quote?
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
    « Reply #25 on: November 22, 2024, 03:59:48 PM »
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  • You're oversimplifying it.  There would be a period of peace, let's say 40-50 years.  Then the Holy Emperor dies and his kingdom is split up into 10 kingdoms.  Then the decline begins.  This could take another 40 years.  Then the antichrist comes onto the scene, as a young prodigy and fights battles at a young age, say 18.  (The Church Fathers say that the antichrist will be a military genius at a young age). 


    The 10 kings start bickering with one another, the world becomes more lax, the previous religious fervor declines.  The antichrist doesn't come into power until age 30 (to mock Our Lord).  So from age 18-30 there are political skirmishes as the 10 kings jockey for power. 

    40 years of peace.
    40 years of post-peace, moral decline.
    12 years of war, with a young pre-antichrist winning battles.
    52 years later, the antichrist gains power.

    Very reasonable.  It's been roughly 50 years since the end of the Vietnam war.  It's been a longer time since V2.  What young adult in their 20s or 30s even CARES about V2 or Vietnam?  What adults in their 40s or 50s care about Vietnam?  They weren't alive.  Same for V2.

    I think you underestimate the power of time and the short attention-span of the avg human being.
    But how long will it take to get to the peace part?  
    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"


    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
    « Reply #26 on: November 22, 2024, 06:04:09 PM »
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  • I just wanted to quote this option from the poll:


    Quote
    Yes, it started sometime before Vatican II (please specify)

    More people selected this option than any other option in the poll, and yet none of them "please specified". So, if you selected this option, can you "please specify" the time before Vatican II that you think the great apostasy began?

    Offline Michelle

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    Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
    « Reply #27 on: November 22, 2024, 07:37:49 PM »
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  • I just wanted to quote this option from the poll:


    More people selected this option than any other option in the poll, and yet none of them "please specified". So, if you selected this option, can you "please specify" the time before Vatican II that you think the great apostasy began?
    The majority of Catholics at the time of Vatll must have been lukewarm with no great love for the Church and her teachings.  Most just went along or fell away completely. Maybe they were just bench warmers going through the motions. That is why I voted in the poll "before Vatican ll." 
    St. Paul tell us that "because men did not receive the love of truth, God sends them the operation of error."

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
    « Reply #28 on: November 23, 2024, 05:42:30 PM »
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  • The majority of Catholics at the time of Vatll must have been lukewarm with no great love for the Church and her teachings.  Most just went along or fell away completely. Maybe they were just bench warmers going through the motions. That is why I voted in the poll "before Vatican ll." 

    .

    Let me try this one last, final time:

    Quote
    sometime before Vatican II (please specify)

    :facepalm:

    Quote
    St. Paul tell us that "because men did not receive the love of truth, God sends them the operation of error."

    So you think the great apostasy began at the time of St. Paul?

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Are we in the Great Apostasy?
    « Reply #29 on: November 23, 2024, 07:40:25 PM »
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  • When the Vatican denies Jesus and preaches an evil gospel and the world is evil with many deceived, it’s a part of the great apostasy.

    It started before Vatican II with free masonry infiltrated the Catholic Church with modernism.  Pope Pius X gave us warnings.  


    May God bless you and keep you