Author Topic: Are we in the Great Apostasy? (Read 10221 times)

Johannes · « **on:** November 20, 2024, 03:51:51 PM »

Some commentary to consider from Haydock DR version:

Ver. 3-4. First, &c.[2] What is meant by this falling away, (in the Greek this apostacy) is uncertain, and differently expounded. St. Jerome and others understand it of a falling off of other kingdoms, which before were subject to the Roman empire; as if St. Paul said to them: you need not fear that the day of judgment is at hand, for it will not come till other kingdoms, by a general revolt, shall have fallen off, so that the Roman empire be destroyed. The same interpreters expound the sixth and seventh verses in like manner, as if when it is said, now you know[3] what withholdeth, &c. That is, you see the Roman empire subsisteth yet, which must be first destroyed. And when it is added, only that he who now holdeth, do hold, until he be taken out of the way; the sense, say these authors, is, let Nero and his successors hold that empire till it be destroyed, for not till then will the day of judgment come. Cornelius a Lapide makes this exposition so certain, that he calls it a tradition of the fathers, which to him seems apostolical. But we must not take the opinion of some fathers, in the exposition of obscure prophecies, where they advance conjectures (which others at the same time reject, or doubt of) to be apostolical traditions, and articles of faith, as the learned bishop of Meaux, Bossuet, takes notice on this very subject, in his preface and treatise on the Apocalypse, against Jurieux. St. Jerome indeed, and others, thought that the Roman empire was to subsist till the antichrist’s coming, which by the event most interpreters conclude to be a mistake, and that it cannot be said the Roman empire continues to this time. See Lyranus on this place, St. Thomas Aquinas, Salmeron, Estius, and many others; though Cornelius a Lapide, with some few, pretend the Roman empire still subsists in the emperors of Germany. We also find that divers of the ancient fathers thought that the day of judgment was just at hand in their time. See Tertullian, St. Cyprian, St. Gregory the Great, &c. And as to this place, it cannot be said the fathers unanimously agree in their exposition. St. Chrysostom[4], Theodoret, St. Augustine in one of his expositions, by this falling off, and apostacy, understand antichrist himself, apostatizing from the Catholic faith. And they who expound it of Nero, did not reflect that this letter of St. Paul was written under Claudius, before Nero’s reign. According to a third and common exposition, by this revolt or apostacy, others understand a great falling off of great numbers from the Catholic Church and faith, in those nations where it was professed before; not but that, as St. Augustine expressly takes notice, the Church will remain always visible, and Catholic in its belief, till the end of the world. This interpretation we find in St. Cyril[5] of Jerusalem. (Catech. 15.) See also St. Anselm on this place, St. Thomas Aquinas, Salmeron, Estius, &c. In fine, that there is no apostolical tradition, as to any of the interpretations of these words, we may be fully convinced from the words of St. Augustine[6], lib. xx. de Civ. Dei. chap. 19. t. 7. p. 597. Nov. edit., where he says: For my part, I own myself altogether ignorant what the apostle means by these words; but I shall mention the suspicions of others, which I have read, or heard. Then he sets down the exposition concerning the Roman empire. He there calls that a suspicion and conjecture, which others say is an apostolical tradition. In like manner the ancient fathers are divided, as to the exposition of the words of the sixth and seventh verse, when it is said you know what hindereth; some understand that antichrist must come first. Others, that the beforementioned apostacy, or falling off from the Church, must happen before. And when St. Paul says, (ver. 7.) that he who now holdeth, do hold; some expound it, let him take care at the time of such trials, to hold, and preserve the true faith to the end. When the expositions are so different, as in this place, whosoever pretends to give a literal translation ought never to add words to the text, which determine the sense to such a particular exposition, and especially in the same print, as Mr. N. hath done on the seventh verse, where he translates, only let him that now holdeth the faith, keep it until he be taken out of the way. — And the man of sin[7] revealed, the son of perdition, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God. He is called again, (ver. 8.) that wicked one….whom the Lord Jesus Christ shall kill with the spirit of his mouth. By all these words is described to us the great antichrist, about the end of the world, according to the unexceptionable authority and consent of the ancient fathers. It is as ridiculous as malicious to pretend, with divers later reformers, that the pope, and all the popes since the destruction of the Roman empire, are the great antichrist, the man of sin, &c. Grotius, Dr. Hammond, and divers learned Protestants, have confuted and ridiculed this groundless fable, of which more on the Apocalypse. It may suffice to observe here that antichrist, the man of sin, the son of perdition, the wicked one, according to all the ancients, is to be one particular man, not so many different men. That he is to come a little while before the day of judgment. That he will make himself be adored, and pretend to be God. What pope did so? That he will pretend to be Christ, &c. (Witham) — St. Augustine (de Civ. Dei. book xx. chap. 19.) says, that an attack would be made at one and the same time against the Roman empire and the Church. The Roman empire subsists as yet, in Germany, though much weakened and reduced. The Roman Catholic Church, notwithstanding all its losses, and the apostacy of many of its children, has always remained the same. (Calmet) — The two special signs of the last day will be a general revolt, and the manifestation of antichrist, both of which are so dependent on each other, that St. Augustine makes but one of both. What presumptive folly in Calvin and other modern reformers, to oppose the universal sentiments of the fathers both of the Latin and Greek Church! What inconsistency, to give such forced interpretations, not only widely different from the expositions of sound antiquity, but also widely different from each other! The Church of God, with her head, strong in the promises of Jesus Christ, will persevere to the end, frustra circuмlatrantibus hæreticis. (St. Augustine, de util. cred. chap. xvii.) — In the temple. Either that of Jerusalem, which some think he will rebuild; or in some Christian Church, which he will pervert to his own worship; as Mahomet has done with the churches of the east. (Challoner)

Yeti · « **Reply #1 on:** November 20, 2024, 05:41:05 PM »

I'm a bit puzzled at the four votes that said the great apostasy started before Vatican 2. They were supposed to explain when before Vatican 2 they are referring to, but nobody did.

Catholicism was by far the largest religion in the world in 1958. Nothing even comes close. And Catholicism in 1958 was what is inaccurately referred to now as "traditional Catholicism" today.

I don't see how that can be considered a time of great apostasy. And if the great apostasy occurred before Vatican 2, when and how?

Yeti · « **Reply #2 on:** November 20, 2024, 05:45:38 PM »

To answer the question in the title, within the lifetime of people still living, Catholicism was by far the largest religion in the world, of all religions including false ones. It was far larger than all heretical and schismatic sects combined. Just look at that graph.

There are people alive today who lived in that time.

Now, the number of people who believe what the Catholic Church taught in 1958 is less than .01% of what it was a few decades ago. This has never happened in history since the time of Christ. Nothing even remotely resembling such a thing has ever happened.

If this is not the great apostasy, then what do you think the great apostasy is going to look like?!

Boomerang · « **Reply #3 on:** November 20, 2024, 06:03:50 PM »

There is no specific point that can be set as the start of the Apostasy, rather that V2 was the catalyst.
For instance, Cardinal Cushing's denial of EENS - "We're told there is no salvation outside the church— nonsense."
The faith of many was faltering before V2.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #4 on:** November 20, 2024, 09:18:23 PM »

Are we in the great Apostasy? No, per the Church Fathers. All of them unanimously say that before the antichrist comes, the entire world will be Catholic. (not every single person, but as a whole, every nation will be a catholic nation). This has not happened yet. Many great nations have never been Catholic (i.e. Africa, China, Asia, Middle East, etc). This period where the gospel will be accepted by all nations, is that period of peace, promised by Our Lady of Fatima, the 6th age of the Church, the 'Age of Mary'. When Russia is consecrated to Her, She will convert the muslims, the protestants, the hindus and pagans. She will unite the Orthodox and other schismatic sects back to the Church, and there will be one Faith across the whole world.

This period will be short, but it will be magnificent. Just as the Resurrected Lord was only on earth for 40 days and he worked many miracles, so this resurrection of the Church will be filled with miracles and great works. It will follow the 5th age of persecution, which started roughly 500 years ago, around 1517 with Martin Luther and the start of Protestantism. Since then, the Church has been under attack, persecuted, and (in our days) seemingly destroyed and overcome by Her enemies.

But as the prophecies say, God will grant the Church the Angelic Pope and the Holy Monarch, who will lead the West back to Christianity and (eventually) will convert the East, through Our Lady. Then as the Church Fathers say, there will be the 3rd and final Holy Roman Empire, which will rule over the Catholic whole world.

Then, after this period of peace, when the Holy Monarch has died, then his kingdom will be split into 10 parts, with 10 kings to rule. This is when the antichrist will appear on the scene, as a young man. These 10 kings will war against each other for power, as a punishment for the world's sins, as the people will fall into lukewarmness and apathy of Faith. Then, as the Apocalypse tells us, eventually the antichrist will convince 7 kings to follow him and they will unite and conquer the 3 who are are for God. Then will the antichrist have power and his rule of 3.5 years will begin.

But the great "falling away" begins when the Holy Monarch dies, as this will signal to those who are watchful that the 'Age of Mary' is over and the peace of Christ is at an end. Then begins the final 7th age of antichrist, as the Apocalypse describes.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #5 on:** November 20, 2024, 09:39:43 PM »

https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/demonstrations-that-the-3-days-of-darkness-is-actually-part-of-divine-revelation/msg932527/#msg932527

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #6 on:** November 20, 2024, 10:54:32 PM »

You’re missing the point. There is no unanimous opinion on the EXACT specifics of the falling away. But there is agreement, generally.

1. St Paul says that the Antichrist will not come before the great falling away.

2. It is unanimous (or near unanimous) that the Church Fathers said the 3rd and Final Holy Roman Empire will exist before Antichrist. This is a direct implication that the whole world will be catholic. (Which it’s not today and NEVER has been).

3. This 3rd catholic empire is spoken of countless times in prophecies, consistently given to us in almost every century, going back to the 400s.

4. The Apocalypse speaks of 10 kings and 10 kingdoms, which lines up with the return of the Empire. It describes these 10 kings being coerced and conquered by Antichrist.

Add all this up, and the great “falling away” is the fall of the 3rd Holy Roman Empire and the fall of Catholicism (generally speaking) back into paganism and worship of Antichrist.

What we see now is the “falling away” of Western Christianity to atheism. What will happen in the future is the “falling away” of the entire Christian world to Antichrist.

Our times are a prefigurement of what is to come. Our Lady will triumph over Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ now. In the future, Our Lord will have the victory over Antichrist.

That’s why Our Lady said that after Russia is consecrated, “a certain period” of Peace will be granted to the world. Because Her victory is not over the actual Antichrist, but only over his agents who prefigure his coming.

Christ will have the final victory over Antichrist and He will be the one to convert the Jєωs before the end of time. This will be His reign and the Social Kingship, when the Jєωs convert and Scripture is fulfilled.

All this lines up with the Apocalypse and the many, many prophecies.

Mark 79 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 21, 2024, 12:45:14 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on November 20, 2024, 10:54:32 PM

You’re missing the point. There is no unanimous opinion on the EXACT specifics of the falling away. But there is agreement, generally.

…

2. It is unanimous (or near unanimous) that the Church Fathers said the 3rd and Final Holy Roman Empire will exist before Antichrist. This is a direct implication that the whole world will be catholic. (Which it’s not today and NEVER has been).

…

I'd like to see a sample of that alleged "unanimous (or near unanimous)" opinion.

It has been quite a few years since I dived into (dabbled in?) eschatology, but my recollection is that the "unanimous (or near unanimous)" opinion of the Fathers was that prior to public arrival of "the man of sin," the Faith would be heard throughout the world, not that "the whole world will be catholic [sic]."

While rest of your numerical interpretations have the appearance of syllogism, they are actually a jumble of opinions and interpretations partly dependent on your point #2, perhaps arguable, but a long way from persuasive, and not at all dispositive.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #8 on:** November 21, 2024, 08:33:17 AM »

Quote

St Jerome (4th cent)...in his commentary on the Book of Daniel:

"Therefore, let us state what all the Ecclesiastical writers [omnes scriptores ecclesiastici] have passed down [tradiderunt]: At the consummation of the world, when the Kingdom of the Romans has been destroyed, when ten kings shall have divided the territory of the Romans between themselves, an eleventh shall rise to a small kingdom, who when he shall have overcome three of the ten kings, i.e. the kingdom of the Egyptians, of the Africans and of the Ethiopians and consequently as we learn more manifestly - whom he shall have killed, the other seven kings shall submit their necks to the victor [the eleventh king].

St Jerome says that (ALL Ecclesiastical writers agree...i.e. unanimous) - the "Kingdom of the Romans" will be destroyed before antichrist arises to power. There is currently not a Roman Empire. Thus, we can safely infer that there will be a 3rd and final Roman Empire, as many, many prophecies, Saints and Church Fathers teach.

Since this Roman Empire will be catholic, then it will be a Holy Roman Empire. Since this Empire will be global, then we can infer that the whole world will be catholic (legally and politically).

Also, let's remember that St Jerome died in the early 400s. He composed the Bible and was considered the most learned of all Latin Fathers. He would've been able to read all the opinions of the Church Fathers and know what was the consensus and what wasn't. Those who lived prior to the peace of Constantine in 325 did not have the luxury to "compare notes" as the Church was fractured and under various persecutions. St Jerome was able to view all writings of the Church Fathers together, at once. Those who lived previously did not have this ability.

Quote

the Faith would be heard throughout the world, not that "the whole world will be catholic [sic]."

It's a little bit of potato, potatoe. One could debate on what does the being "heard" mean? If we go by history, then as Christ's time was a peaceful one for the world, then "hearing the Faith" means one had the opportunity, in a foreign land, to peacefully accept the Faith and not be persecuted. In our present day, many countries are hostile towards Christianity so while many can "hear" the Truth, they don't have the opportunity to peacefully accept it, nor peacefully practice it. (Many muslims/chinese/africans are under threat of death if they accept the Faith.) My opinion is that there will be a time (i.e. the 3rd Holy Roman Empire) when there will be peace and thus the "hearing" of the Faith will be easier and genuine.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #9 on:** November 21, 2024, 08:35:57 AM »

Quote

We also find that divers of the ancient fathers thought that the day of judgment was just at hand in their time. See Tertullian, St. Cyprian, St. Gregory the Great, &c. And as to this place, it cannot be said the fathers unanimously agree in their exposition.

Ok, so they don't agree on the "place of judgement". But they agree on many other things.

Quote

St. Chrysostom[4], Theodoret, St. Augustine in one of his expositions, by this falling off, and apostacy, understand antichrist himself, apostatizing from the Catholic faith. And they who expound it of Nero, did not reflect that this letter of St. Paul was written under Claudius, before Nero’s reign.

According to a third and common exposition, by this revolt or apostacy, others understand a great falling off of great numbers from the Catholic Church and faith, in those nations where it was professed before; not but that, as St. Augustine expressly takes notice, the Church will remain always visible, and Catholic in its belief, till the end of the world. This interpretation we find in St. Cyril[5] of Jerusalem. (Catech. 15.) See also St. Anselm on this place, St. Thomas Aquinas, Salmeron, Estius, &c. In fine, that there is no apostolical tradition, as to any of the interpretations of these words

What is the article talking about? What are "these words"?

Michelle · « **Reply #10 on:** November 21, 2024, 08:56:46 AM »

"She shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel."

Our Lady triumphs over the serpent and his antichrist.
Pope Leo Xlll heard Our Lord and satan having a conversation from the tabernacle. Our Lord gave him 100 years to try and destroy the Church.

Our Lady to sister Lucy in 1929. "The time has come for the Holy Father to consecrate Russia to My Immaculate Heart." (I believe this starts the 100 years, because Our Lady could have asked for this in 1917 but she stated I will come to ask for the consecration)

"If my requests are heeded, Russia will be converted and peace will reign throughout the world.

IF Not, Russia will spread her errors raising up wars and persecutions against the Church..........

"IN THE END, my Immaculate Heart will triumph and a period of peace will be granted to the world."

"The devil is in the mood for a dicisive (final) battle" Sr. Lucy

Prophecy is conditional according to man's response. It is clear that Catholics did not respond. At this present time in history there are only a very small remnant holding and practicing the true, tradional faith. Novus Ordo and Protestants do not hold the true faith.
Even Archbishop Lefebvre called Rome Apostate Rome.

At the time of the antichrist, Enoch and Elias will preach the true gospel throughout the whole world.

Some say the period of peace that will be granted after the antichrist is 45 days. Others have stated 25 years.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #11 on:** November 21, 2024, 09:29:11 AM »

Before the antichrist comes, the Catholic Monarchy and the Holy Roman Empire will return. All of the world is awash in democracy/republic forms of govt. But the Monarchy will return. We are living in the End Times (plural) but not the End Time (antichrist). We are in the end of the 5th age, with the 6th age upon us (short peace) and then the final 7th age (antichrist) to come.

Yeti · « **Reply #12 on:** November 21, 2024, 09:34:13 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on November 21, 2024, 08:33:17 AM

St Jerome says that (ALL Ecclesiastical writers agree...i.e. unanimous) - the "Kingdom of the Romans" will be destroyed before antichrist arises to power. There is currently not a Roman Empire. Thus, we can safely infer that there will be a 3rd and final Roman Empire, as many, many prophecies, Saints and Church Fathers teach.

Since this Roman Empire will be catholic, then it will be a Holy Roman Empire. Since this Empire will be global, then we can infer that the whole world will be catholic (legally and politically).

.

Well, the kingdom of the Romans was destroyed legally in 1823 (or so) by Napoleon, in the sense that he changed the name of the empire to simply Austro-Hungarian Empire. The empire with the new name officially ceased to exist entirely at the end of World War One. So the kingdom of the Romans has definitely been destroyed.

I don't see where you get the idea that there will be three Roman Empires.

Yeti · « **Reply #13 on:** November 21, 2024, 09:39:26 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on November 21, 2024, 08:33:17 AM

One could debate on what does the being "heard" mean? If we go by history, then as Christ's time was a peaceful one for the world, then "hearing the Faith" means one had the opportunity, in a foreign land, to peacefully accept the Faith and not be persecuted. In our present day, many countries are hostile towards Christianity so while many can "hear" the Truth, they don't have the opportunity to peacefully accept it, nor peacefully practice it. (Many muslims/chinese/africans are under threat of death if they accept the Faith.) My opinion is that there will be a time (i.e. the 3rd Holy Roman Empire) when there will be peace and thus the "hearing" of the Faith will be easier and genuine.

.

People are required to embrace the Faith regardless of whether they will be persecuted for doing so or not. I have never heard of any guarantee that people will not be persecuted for the Faith. On the contrary, Our Lord's words seem to give us a guarantee that we will always be persecuted for being His followers. I don't see any equivalence between hearing the Faith and being able to practice it without being persecuted.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #14 on:** November 21, 2024, 09:49:08 AM »

Quote

Well, the kingdom of the Romans was destroyed legally in 1823 (or so) by Napoleon, in the sense that he changed the name of the empire to simply Austro-Hungarian Empire. The empire with the new name officially ceased to exist entirely at the end of World War One. So the kingdom of the Romans has definitely been destroyed.

I don't see where you get the idea that there will be three Roman Empires.

I posted the link to another thread where the idea of a 3rd and Final Holy Roman Empire is consistently prophecized throughout the centuries. And it is nearly unanimous that the Church Fathers proclaim the same. See quotes which back this idea up.

Quote

People are required to embrace the Faith regardless of whether they will be persecuted for doing so or not. I have never heard of any guarantee that people will not be persecuted for the Faith. On the contrary, Our Lord's words seem to give us a guarantee that we will always be persecuted for being His followers. I don't see any equivalence between hearing the Faith and being able to practice it without being persecuted.

Yes all this is true. But the Church Fathers are nearly unanimous (if not unanimous) that there will be a period of peace, a period of calm for the Church before the antichrist comes. And countless prophecies say that the world will be preached the gospel during an extraordinary time of peace for the Church, towards the end of the world.

These are not my ideas; i'm simply reading what saints/prophecies/Church Fathers say. And consistently say.

Poll

St. Paul talks about the "falling away" in 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Author Topic: Are we in the Great Apostasy? (Read 10221 times)

Johannes

Are we in the Great Apostasy?

Yeti

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Yeti

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Boomerang

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Pax Vobis

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Pax Vobis

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Pax Vobis

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Mark 79

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Pax Vobis

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Pax Vobis

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Michelle

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Pax Vobis

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Yeti

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Yeti

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Pax Vobis

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