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Author Topic: Are we free to deny what is not "de fide" teaching?  (Read 862 times)

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Offline BumphreyHogart

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Are we free to deny what is not "de fide" teaching?
« on: June 12, 2017, 06:31:18 PM »
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  • I have notice that many Catholics think that if something is not "de fide" teaching, that they are free to reject it!

    This is a serious error.

    For instance, the Baltimore Catechism teaches SO many truths, and there are no labels as to whether something is "de fide" or not, so how do we know which is and which is not?

    We don't know....

    We are not supposed to know which is or is not - because that is for confessors to use. We are only supposed to know that we are obliged under pain of mortal sin to believe everything in the Catechism because the pope approved of it for general Catholic learning.

    Now, take a look at this approved chart of the various theological notes attached to teaching that was designed for confessors:
    http://genus.cogia.net/Cartechini.pdf

    Take care to notice that even though something may not be labeled with "de fide", it can otherwise be labeled as:
    proxima fidei
    theologicae certum
    doctrina catholica

    The chart shows that those who reject teachings labeled as such, would still commit a mortal sin, as would anyone promoting doubting what is taught by the Baltimore Catechism.

    So, would you dare, for example, to reject the doctrine of guardian angels because you doubt it is "de fide"?

    If you dare, it is a mortal sin, and you choose hell by doing so!

    Think about how serious this subject is.


    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.


    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Are we free to deny what is not "de fide" teaching?
    « Reply #1 on: June 15, 2017, 05:13:42 PM »
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  • Wow! 3 down-thumbs! Which ones will have the guts to express what he disagrees with, and why?
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are we free to deny what is not "de fide" teaching?
    « Reply #2 on: June 15, 2017, 05:26:16 PM »
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  • Quote
    Are we free to deny what is not "de fide" teaching?
    Strictly speaking, yes.  It depends on the topic.  In your example of the guardian angels, based on my limited knowledge, i'd say it's 'close to the faith' therefore we would be stupid to reject it.  But, must we accept it, under pain of sin?  It's not in the creed and it's not in the mass or the rosary, so i'd say 'We have to believe in angels because they're in scripture, but we don't have to believe in the idea of a personal guardian angel.'  Just my opinion.



    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Are we free to deny what is not "de fide" teaching?
    « Reply #3 on: June 15, 2017, 05:42:33 PM »
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  • Strictly speaking, yes.  It depends on the topic.  In your example of the guardian angels, based on my limited knowledge, i'd say it's 'close to the faith' therefore we would be stupid to reject it.  But, must we accept it, under pain of sin?  It's not in the creed and it's not in the mass or the rosary, so i'd say 'We have to believe in angels because they're in scripture, but we don't have to believe in the idea of a personal guardian angel.'  Just my opinion.


    So, you reject out of hand an approved Catholic source saying that it is a mortal sin to disbelieve that which is "de fide" and that which is categorized with several lesser heretical notes?


    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are we free to deny what is not "de fide" teaching?
    « Reply #4 on: June 15, 2017, 05:55:21 PM »
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  • You are a very angry person.


    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Are we free to deny what is not "de fide" teaching?
    « Reply #5 on: June 15, 2017, 05:59:54 PM »
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  • You are a very angry person.

    Get the message. We should have a measure of just anger when a person who thinks he is Catholic simply disregards an approved Catholic source.
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Are we free to deny what is not "de fide" teaching?
    « Reply #6 on: June 15, 2017, 06:33:08 PM »
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  •  In your example of the guardian angels, based on my limited knowledge, i'd say it's 'close to the faith' therefore we would be stupid to reject it.  But, must we accept it, under pain of sin?  It's not in the creed and it's not in the mass or the rosary, so i'd say 'We have to believe in angels because they're in scripture, but we don't have to believe in the idea of a personal guardian angel.'  Just my opinion.
    Looks like Bumphrey is here to condemn rather than to inform.
    However, the idea of a personal guardian angel is in Matthew 18:10:
    "See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven."
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are we free to deny what is not "de fide" teaching?
    « Reply #7 on: June 15, 2017, 07:10:12 PM »
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  • Wow! 3 down-thumbs! Which ones will have the guts to express what he disagrees with, and why?

    Sure.  I'd be happy to respond ... if you unban me from this thread.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are we free to deny what is not "de fide" teaching?
    « Reply #8 on: June 15, 2017, 07:49:18 PM »
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  • Quote
    However, the idea of a personal guardian angel is in Matthew 18:10:
    "See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven."
    Great point.  

    So, putting aside my heretical response, which I reject wholeheartedly, (please, bumphrey, will you absolve me?), as to the original question, i'd say "it depends".

    Offline Nadir

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    Re: Are we free to deny what is not "de fide" teaching?
    « Reply #9 on: June 15, 2017, 09:59:22 PM »
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  • Great point.  

    So, putting aside my heretical response, which I reject wholeheartedly, (please, bumphrey, will you absolve me?), as to the original question, i'd say "it depends".
    Your response was in no way heretical, merely mistaken. Nobody knows everything!
    .
    Yes, it very much depends. Bumph gives one poor example of what he is talking about. And I feel quite sure that you were not "destined for hell" for not being aware of one verse from scripture.

    Besides Bumph seems to suggest that the whole world depends on the Baltimore Catechism. I've never read it, let alone studied it. I'm sure quite a few pre-Americans and un-Americans got into Heaven without the benefit of having studied and affirmed its every word. 
    .
    I really am wondering why Ladi has asked to be unbanned from this thread, and what he has to say.
    .
    This is getting very exciting>>>> :popcorn:
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Are we free to deny what is not "de fide" teaching?
    « Reply #10 on: June 16, 2017, 05:01:29 PM »
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  • Sure.  I'd be happy to respond ... if you unban me from this thread.

    This is the 3rd time you have violated your own professed principle. You can easily PM whomever you need to (or start a new thread) to communicate.

    As well, you aren't banned. Banning is done with force, where a person has no choice but to be excluded. In your case, you professed that if someone asks another to not post in a thread he starts, that one should willingly comply. You have, so far (3 times) willingly violated your own professed principle.
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.


    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Are we free to deny what is not "de fide" teaching?
    « Reply #11 on: June 17, 2017, 05:08:35 PM »
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  • Looks like Bumphrey is here to condemn rather than to inform.
    However, the idea of a personal guardian angel is in Matthew 18:10:
    "See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven."


    I condemned no one. I gave the teaching of the Catholic Church that rejecting "de fide" teaching (and some lesser theological notes) is a mortal sin. I didn't say anyone was guilty. I said it was a mortal sin, which means grievous matter. Whether one does so with "full knowledge" and "full consent" has nothing to do with my post. But, I am here to give that knowledge and echo what the Church says is the result. It's absolutely unCatholic to say "it depends". Calling this truth into doubt would also be grievous matter for mortal sin.
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.