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Author Topic: Are una cuм Masses sinful?  (Read 8635 times)

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Offline AMDGJMJ

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Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2023, 11:02:43 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on August 09, 2023, 04:52:49 AM
    Well, even most sedes had no problem with "Una cuм" Masses before Fr. Cekada came along and invented this NOVEL and self-serving doctrine.

    The idea that assisting at a regular Tridentine Mass, wherein the priest prays for the Pope "one with Pope N... and our Bishop N..." somehow means we are one with his heresies and/or personal sins -- that's an insane idea that never once entered into any Traditional Catholic's mind before Fr. Cekada came along.

    Fr. Cekada lived and had his apostolate in CINCINNATI, OH which is a haven of Traditional Catholicism, with around TWELVE Traditional Catholic flavors/groups/options.

    So you see, it's understandable (humanly speaking) that Fr. Cekada would have naturally been tempted to come up with a scheme to "eliminate the competition" and make his flock permanently his own.

    And so he did.

    And for that very human, selfish, sinful, and base move, I lost all respect for him.

    I've been a Traditional Catholic my whole life, and I'm in my 40's, having grown up at an independent chapel. I know Traditional Catholicism intimately. I know how they thought and believed in the early days. They avoided N.O. Masses, but they attended pretty much ANY Tridentine Mass, as long as the priest was valid. None of this "anti-Una cuм" nonsense. And sedevacantism was a side thing, a personal opinion, not something you included in your identity. ("I want to find a good, Traditional, Sedevacantist girl and get married...") Those words in quotes would have sounded like this: "I want to find a good, modest, Traditional Catholic girl named Emily and get married, and then..." Or mentioning specific interests/hobbies that your future spouse would have. It would be unrealistic and cute, something kids would say about "when they grow up" -- but no adults would say it or mean it.
    Well said!  

    I have a lot of respect for Bishop Sanborn and Father Cekada but this is one of the things which I think that they push too far.

    I can understand a priest or bishop deciding that he himself in good conscience can not say "Pope Francis"s name in the Mass... 

    But not him saying that everyone has to believe this and act upon or it is a mortal sin and not fully Catholic if the Church Herself has not yet officially declared it so.

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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #16 on: August 09, 2023, 12:00:05 PM »
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    • Quote from: AMDGJMJ on August 09, 2023, 11:02:43 AM
    But not him saying that everyone has to believe this and act upon or it is a mortal sin and not fully Catholic if the Church Herself has not yet officially declared it so.
    From Ex Quo, Pope Benedict XIV in the year 1756

    “Whosoever does not pronounce the name of the Apostolic one in the canon for whatever reason should realize that he is separated from the communion of the whole world” (Chronicle, p.228); or by the authority of the famous Alcuin: “It is generally agreed that those who do not for any reason recall the memory of the Apostolic pontiff in the course of the sacred mysteries according to custom are, as the blessed Pelagius teaches, separated from the communion of the entire world” (de Divinis Officiis, bk. 1, chap. 12).
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    Offline Gunter

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #17 on: August 09, 2023, 12:26:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on August 09, 2023, 08:31:02 AM
    Fr. Cekada was the one apparently who came up with this una cuм nonsense, but doesn't Bp. Sanborn went along with him?

    I had the impression that Bp. Sanborn swears by the una cuм rule too, saying that it is sinful to attend at masses that include the Pope's name in the Canon.
    Here is how "they" present the argument to you.  If you believe Pope Bergolio is the Pope then why would attend here?  A pressure tactic so you give your consent.  Who is dumb enough to argue with a priest or bishop if they wished to attend their masses.
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    Offline moneil

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #18 on: August 09, 2023, 01:35:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 09, 2023, 10:51:05 AM
    A digression, but I can't stand the phrase "I assist at Mass."

    Sounds like "active participation."

    Or, "I help the priest at Mass.  I'm his assistant.  I'll assist him"

    I prefer "I go to Mass."
    Interestingly, Bishop Sanborn uses the phrase "active participation", and I assume he is looking at it from the most traditional viewpoint.

    My St. Joseph Daily Missal quotes Pope Pius XII in encouraging the use of hand held Missals: "...so that they (the lay faithful) may take part more easily ... in the Mass ... that the faithful, united with the Priest, may pray together ....".  Also cited is a Decree of the Sacred Congregation of Rites: "...pray along with the Priest in the very words of the Church".

    These would seem to suggest that one should be more involved that to "just go" or "just be in attendance".

    When I was growing up pre VII (born in 1951) my general understanding (I'll not take time to find citations) was that a priest could not say Mass by himself (there probable were some few exceptions), he had to have at least one altar server and/or a congregation.  When a priest wanted to say a private Mass they would have altar servers come from the parochial school, or a mother would bring her sons to serve and she (and perhaps daughters) would stay to comprise the congregation.  Yes, the altar servers were "substituting" for those in the minor orders and clerics-in-choir (which hadn't existed at the parish level for centuries), but they are still only laity, and of no higher rank than those in the pews have.  When Mass was said at the convent chapel there were no alter servers, the women religious made the responses and rang the bells.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #19 on: August 09, 2023, 02:41:18 PM »
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    • I hold the sedevacantist position and will attend una cuм masses. From the research I have done, I believe the una cuм clause is principally intercessory. Therefore it seems to me that including an antipope in the una cuм, even an heretical antipope, is nothing other than an error of fact. And as such, it should not trouble the conscience of any person assisting at such a mass. 
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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #20 on: August 09, 2023, 03:49:04 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan on August 09, 2023, 02:41:18 PM
    I hold the sedevacantist position and will attend una cuм masses. From the research I have done, I believe the una cuм clause is principally intercessory. Therefore it seems to me that including an antipope in the una cuм, even an heretical antipope, is nothing other than an error of fact. And as such, it should not trouble the conscience of any person assisting at such a mass.
    Good explanation!

    This is where I stand and what I believe on the matter as well. 
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    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #21 on: August 09, 2023, 04:34:24 PM »
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    • Quote from: rosarytrad on August 09, 2023, 08:48:22 AM
    go to vatican catholic .com and search "una cuм mass" and some articles pop up where they explain their position.

    Thank you, my friend!
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    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #22 on: August 09, 2023, 04:36:50 PM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on August 09, 2023, 09:56:17 AM
    There we have it. Thank you.

    Being a Traditionalist Catholic is so interesting because every now and then we get new dogmas proclaimed. And you get to choose which ones you accept.;)

    Furthermore Bp. Sanborn says publicly and explicitly that, after he has explained the position to faithful, if they persist in going to SSPX Masses, he refuses them Holy Communion.
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    Online Seraphina

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #23 on: August 09, 2023, 05:40:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: AMDGJMJ on August 09, 2023, 11:02:43 AM
    Well said! 

    I have a lot of respect for Bishop Sanborn and Father Cekada but this is one of the things which I think that they push too far.

    I can understand a priest or bishop deciding that he himself in good conscience can not say "Pope Francis"s name in the Mass... 

    But not him saying that everyone has to believe this and act upon or it is a mortal sin and not fully Catholic if the Church Herself has not yet officially declared it so.
    Well said!  This is where I stand on most “issues” within Tradition.  The only time I’d not attend a Mass or receive Sacraments is if something is positively against Faith and morals, or if someone in authority like the priest interviews me, and forbids me to receive Communion or refuses absolution because I believe or do something he believes to be objectively sinful.  (Even if I know he’s wrong, it’s not my place as a laywoman to defy his rules.)  
    Some trads seem to think they have a ‘personal’ Magisterium and that they should impose it on others.  
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    Offline DustyActual

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #24 on: August 09, 2023, 09:43:07 PM »
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    • Quote from: Simeon on August 09, 2023, 04:36:50 PM
    Furthermore Bp. Sanborn says publicly and explicitly that, after he has explained the position to faithful, if they persist in going to SSPX Masses, he refuses them Holy Communion.
    What do you think would happen if after being refused Communion for attending SSPX masses, said person would still attend bishop Sanborn's masses, but wouldn't receive Communion. Strictly speaking you're only obligated to receive once a year. You still fulfill your Sunday obligation even if you don't receive Communion.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #25 on: August 09, 2023, 09:53:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 09, 2023, 10:51:05 AM
    A digression, but I can't stand the phrase "I assist at Mass."

    Sounds like "active participation."

    Or, "I help the priest at Mass.  I'm his assistant.  I'll assist him"

    I prefer "I go to Mass."

    assist

    ə-sĭst′
    intransitive verb
    • To give help or support to, especially as a subordinate or supplement; aid.
    • To give aid or support.
    • To be present, as at a conference.

    Only the third definition fits Mass attendance.

    I would assume (and you know what happens when you "assume") that it is cognate to the French assister à, which simply means "attend" or "be present at", without implying that you did something to help out someone (such as the priest).

    I use it simply because it's traditional, and not used by Newchurchers.  A thumb in the eye of the modernizers, you could say.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #26 on: August 09, 2023, 10:31:26 PM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on August 09, 2023, 09:53:53 PM
    I would assume (and you know what happens when you "assume") that it is cognate to the French assister à, which simply means "attend" or "be present at", without implying that you did something to help out someone (such as the priest).

    I use it simply because it's traditional, and not used by Newchurchers.  A thumb in the eye of the modernizers, you could say.

    It’s widely used by conciliarists, as the inherent ambiguity of the term implies the modernist rendition of “helping the priest” and /or “doing something essential.”
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #27 on: August 09, 2023, 11:03:10 PM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on August 09, 2023, 08:31:02 AM
    Fr. Cekada was the one apparently who came up with this una cuм nonsense, but doesn't Bp. Sanborn went along with him?

    Fr. C only came onboard many years AFTER Bp. Sanborn and PH Omlor espoused the idea.  I was at MHT during those years.  
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #28 on: August 09, 2023, 11:05:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: moneil on August 09, 2023, 08:43:38 AM
    From Bishop Sanborn:
    "Finally I hold that the traditional Latin Mass which is offered together with (una cuм) the Novus Ordo hierarchy is objectively sacrilegious. Consequently I affirm that active participation in Masses or services in which the name of a Novus Ordo hierarch is mentioned is objectively a mortal sin."
    https://romancatholicinstitute.org/hello-world/

    There are only material and formal sin.  His choice of the term "objectively" only undermines his already-weak argument.
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #29 on: August 09, 2023, 11:12:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on August 09, 2023, 04:52:49 AM
    Well, even most sedes had no problem with "Una cuм" Masses before Fr. Cekada came along and invented this NOVEL and self-serving doctrine.

    The idea that assisting at a regular Tridentine Mass, wherein the priest prays for the Pope "one with Pope N... and our Bishop N..." somehow means we are one with his heresies and/or personal sins -- that's an insane idea that never once entered into any Traditional Catholic's mind before Fr. Cekada came along.

    Fr. C was actually LATE to the game.  It was a practical move and when I was at MHT he totally disagreed with the anti-una-cuм position.  At-the-time Fr. Sanborn and PH Omlor had already espoused the position WELL before Fr. Cekada and Bp. Dolan did so.  Frankly, the best case, IMO, was made by PHO, whose entire argument was undone by an "anonymous" objection (made by Fr. Collins), one which PHO was honorable enough to present and answer at the end of his booklet Sedevecantists and the Una-cuм Problem.  I posted about this issue MANY times on CI years ago, but finding those comments would require some digging.
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