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Author Topic: Are una cuм Masses sinful?  (Read 8635 times)

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Offline hgodwinson

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Are una cuм Masses sinful?
« on: August 09, 2023, 02:44:15 AM »
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  • No intent to start any dispute, just curious what thought processes or evidence different groups/camps base their stances regarding this issue on.

    Question posed to sedes.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #1 on: August 09, 2023, 04:52:49 AM »
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  • Well, even most sedes had no problem with "Una cuм" Masses before Fr. Cekada came along and invented this NOVEL and self-serving doctrine.

    The idea that assisting at a regular Tridentine Mass, wherein the priest prays for the Pope "one with Pope N... and our Bishop N..." somehow means we are one with his heresies and/or personal sins -- that's an insane idea that never once entered into any Traditional Catholic's mind before Fr. Cekada came along.

    Fr. Cekada lived and had his apostolate in CINCINNATI, OH which is a haven of Traditional Catholicism, with around TWELVE Traditional Catholic flavors/groups/options.

    So you see, it's understandable (humanly speaking) that Fr. Cekada would have naturally been tempted to come up with a scheme to "eliminate the competition" and make his flock permanently his own.

    And so he did.

    And for that very human, selfish, sinful, and base move, I lost all respect for him.

    I've been a Traditional Catholic my whole life, and I'm in my 40's, having grown up at an independent chapel. I know Traditional Catholicism intimately. I know how they thought and believed in the early days. They avoided N.O. Masses, but they attended pretty much ANY Tridentine Mass, as long as the priest was valid. None of this "anti-Una cuм" nonsense. And sedevacantism was a side thing, a personal opinion, not something you included in your identity. ("I want to find a good, Traditional, Sedevacantist girl and get married...") Those words in quotes would have sounded like this: "I want to find a good, modest, Traditional Catholic girl named Emily and get married, and then..." Or mentioning specific interests/hobbies that your future spouse would have. It would be unrealistic and cute, something kids would say about "when they grow up" -- but no adults would say it or mean it.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #2 on: August 09, 2023, 05:01:54 AM »
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  • "This famous Una cuм of the sedevacantists...ridiculous! ridiculous .... it’s ridiculous, it's ridiculous. In fact it is not at all the meaning of the prayer"- Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, retreat at St-Michel en Brenne, April 1st, 1989
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #3 on: August 09, 2023, 05:05:57 AM »
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  • "This famous Una cuм of the sedevacantists...ridiculous! ridiculous .... it’s ridiculous, it's ridiculous. In fact it is not at all the meaning of the prayer"- Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, retreat at St-Michel en Brenne, April 1st, 1989

    I'd show you where this ERROR, this distorted idea of the Una cuм prayer came from -- but you wouldn't like it, any more than Lucia, Francisco, and Jacinta did when Our Lady showed it to them. ;)
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #4 on: August 09, 2023, 07:27:07 AM »
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  • No intent to start any dispute, just curious what thought processes or evidence different groups/camps base their stances regarding this issue on.

    Question posed to sedes.
    Since you are asking sedes:

    As a sedevacantist, I do not attribute sin to those sedes who assist at an una cuм mass, but I assist at a non una cuм mass. 

    As for non-sedes (who believe Bergoglio is a true pope), it makes sense for them to assist at a mass una cuм Bergoglio.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #5 on: August 09, 2023, 08:02:21 AM »
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  • Well, even most sedes had no problem with "Una cuм" Masses before Fr. Cekada came along and invented this NOVEL and self-serving doctrine.

    Father Cekada did some good work, but he did come up with a few doozies over the years as well, in addition to the "una cuм" (which even the Dimond Brothers reject)

    1) "Cekadism" (notion that theologians enjoy some kind of role in the Ecclesia Docens nearly to the point of infallibility) -- rejected explicitly by Monsignor Fenton

    2) Terri Schiavo analysis (scandalous and wrong)

    3) Reasons for removing the Prayers after Low Mass

    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #6 on: August 09, 2023, 08:08:57 AM »
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  • Father Cekada did some good work, but he did come up with a few doozies over the years as well, in addition to the "una cuм" (which even the Dimond Brothers reject)

    1) "Cekadism" (notion that theologians enjoy some kind of role in the Ecclesia Docens nearly to the point of infallibility) -- rejected explicitly by Monsignor Fenton

    2) Terri Schiavo analysis (scandalous and wrong)

    3) Reasons for removing the Prayers after Low Mass

    I didn't know the Dimonds rejected non una cuм. That's interesting. I'd love to know their rationale. 

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #7 on: August 09, 2023, 08:31:02 AM »
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  • Fr. Cekada was the one apparently who came up with this una cuм nonsense, but doesn't Bp. Sanborn went along with him?

    I had the impression that Bp. Sanborn swears by the una cuм rule too, saying that it is sinful to attend at masses that include the Pope's name in the Canon.


    Offline moneil

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #8 on: August 09, 2023, 08:43:38 AM »
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  • Fr. Cekada was the one apparently who came up with this una cuм nonsense, but doesn't Bp. Sanborn went along with him?

    I had the impression that Bp. Sanborn swears by the una cuм rule too, saying that it is sinful to attend at masses that include the Pope's name in the Canon.

    From Bishop Sanborn:
    "Finally I hold that the traditional Latin Mass which is offered together with (una cuм) the Novus Ordo hierarchy is objectively sacrilegious. Consequently I affirm that active participation in Masses or services in which the name of a Novus Ordo hierarch is mentioned is objectively a mortal sin."
    https://romancatholicinstitute.org/hello-world/

    Offline rosarytrad

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #9 on: August 09, 2023, 08:48:22 AM »
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  • I didn't know the Dimonds rejected non una cuм. That's interesting. I'd love to know their rationale.
    go to vatican catholic .com and search "una cuм mass" and some articles pop up where they explain their position.
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    Offline Minnesota

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #10 on: August 09, 2023, 09:35:51 AM »
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  • No. That basically limits the Church to "whatever St. Gertrude/Sanborn/etc have". It's trying to force an opinion (a very Protestant one at that) as binding upon the faithful.
    Christ is Risen! He is risen indeed


    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #11 on: August 09, 2023, 09:56:17 AM »
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  • From Bishop Sanborn:
    "Finally I hold that the traditional Latin Mass which is offered together with (una cuм) the Novus Ordo hierarchy is objectively sacrilegious. Consequently I affirm that active participation in Masses or services in which the name of a Novus Ordo hierarch is mentioned is objectively a mortal sin."
    https://romancatholicinstitute.org/hello-world/


    There we have it. Thank you.

    Being a Traditionalist Catholic is so interesting because every now and then we get new dogmas proclaimed. And you get to choose which ones you accept.;) 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #12 on: August 09, 2023, 10:19:43 AM »
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  • Well, Bishop Sanborn leaves some gray there by stating that it's "objectively" sacrilegious ... which it would be if Jorge is in fact an Antipope.  But the certainty regarding that question is what creates the "out".

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #13 on: August 09, 2023, 10:51:05 AM »
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  • A digression, but I can't stand the phrase "I assist at Mass."

    Sounds like "active participation."

    Or, "I help the priest at Mass.  I'm his assistant.  I'll assist him"

    I prefer "I go to Mass."

    assist

    ə-sĭst′
    intransitive verb
    • To give help or support to, especially as a subordinate or supplement; aid.
    • To give aid or support.
    • To be present, as at a conference.

    Only the third definition fits Mass attendance.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #14 on: August 09, 2023, 10:56:48 AM »
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  • A digression, but I can't stand the phrase "I assist at Mass."

    Sounds like "active participation."

    Or, "I help the priest at Mas.  I'm his assistant."

    I prefer "I go to Mass."

    Well, there is a distinction there between active and passive participation, and the term "assist" has stuck.  So, basically, under some circuмstances you could "go to" a Prot service but not participate in it, i.e. attend passively, whereas with the term "assist", you're actively intending to join yourself to the Mass.  I can "go to" Mass but not pay attention, not care, be thinking about the afternoon's football game, etc.  But, yeah, the Novus Ordo has dirtied the term "assist" at Mass.  From the Latin it derives from "adsisto" = "adsto", meaning to stand next to or facing toward, implying being attentive to and engaged in.  Latin didn't really have the sense of "helping out" that we have in English.  So it's one of those things that translates etymologically to an English term that in the English has picked up some additional baggage.