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Author Topic: Are una cuм Masses sinful?  (Read 8634 times)

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Offline Cryptinox

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Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2023, 11:21:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on August 09, 2023, 11:03:10 PM
    Fr. C only came onboard many years AFTER Bp. Sanborn and PH Omlor espoused the idea.  I was at MHT during those years. 
    I had thought +Des Lauriers was the first to espouse the anti una cuм position
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #31 on: August 09, 2023, 11:23:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: DustyActual on August 09, 2023, 09:43:07 PM
    What do you think would happen if after being refused Communion for attending SSPX masses, said person would still attend bishop Sanborn's masses, but wouldn't receive Communion. Strictly speaking you're only obligated to receive once a year. You still fulfill your Sunday obligation even if you don't receive Communion.

    Erroneously treating people as public sinners -- e.g., refusing them communion, etc -- is, ironically, committing public sin.  The SSPV are (blind, hypocritical) masters at this.
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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #32 on: August 09, 2023, 11:25:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: rosarytrad on August 09, 2023, 08:48:22 AM
    go to vatican catholic .com and search "una cuм mass" and some articles pop up where they explain their position.
    https://schismatic-home-aloner.com/una-cuм-mass/

    Right at the end;
    Quote
    These Catholic priests recognized that, in necessities and crises, things may be done, for the greater benefit of souls and spiritual advantage, that normally wouldn’t be done, as long as the faith is not compromised. They recognized that to receive a sacrament from a priest is not to endorse that priest’s personal heresies or his compromises, unless that priest imposes them upon you or unless you support him in those heresies or unless he makes his heretical views notorious. These Catholic priests recognized that the sacraments are powerful; that God wants people to receive them, if they can receive them in an acceptable way without any denial of the faith. They recognized that those Catholics who were approaching the compromising priest in that awful period under Elizabeth, would not have been going to such priests if they had another option. The radical schismatics, who viciously condemn our view on this matter, better think again; for they are wrong and headed toward the abyss. This is because condemning as heretics people who aren’t is schismatic.

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    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #33 on: August 09, 2023, 11:26:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on August 09, 2023, 11:23:02 PM
    Erroneously treating people as public sinners -- e.g., refusing them communion, etc -- is, ironically, committing public sin.  The SSPV are (blind, hypocritical) masters at this.
    This is one of the pros for the SSPX, at least they don't bar you from communion for stuff like this (or rejecting BoD/BoB/II).
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #34 on: August 09, 2023, 11:26:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Cryptinox on August 09, 2023, 11:21:17 PM
    I had thought +Des Lauriers was the first to espouse the anti una cuм position

    Although I did not mention him, I believe you are correct.  That is why +Sanborn also espoused it.  +Sanborn was aligned with +Des Lauriers on the Cassiciacuм thesis (Materialiter-Formaliter), too.  I always found it odd, as The Thesis, if you will, in my mind at least, should lead one to be the opposite of anti-una-cuм.  
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #35 on: August 09, 2023, 11:29:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on August 09, 2023, 11:26:15 PM
    This is one of the pros for the SSPX, at least they don't bar you from communion for stuff like this (or rejecting BoD/BoB/II).

    I cannot speak from experience, as I have very rarely ASSISTED ;) at an SSPX Mass.  However, I have heard of SVs being treated similarly, even if rarely, by SSPX priests.  No one is blameless in the Wild West of Traddieland.  Sad but true.
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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #36 on: August 10, 2023, 01:42:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 09, 2023, 10:31:26 PM
    It’s widely used by conciliarists, as the inherent ambiguity of the term implies the modernist rendition of “helping the priest” and /or “doing something essential.”

    I've never heard it used by them.  It's kind of an old-fashioned term that frequently appeared in pre-Vatican II writings.  That's why I often use it, for the same reason that I say "Holy Ghost".
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #37 on: August 10, 2023, 05:33:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 09, 2023, 10:31:26 PM
    It’s widely used by conciliarists, as the inherent ambiguity of the term implies the modernist rendition of “helping the priest” and /or “doing something essential.”
    I had NEVER heard the term UNTIL I became Traditional.
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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #38 on: August 10, 2023, 07:16:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on August 09, 2023, 11:03:10 PM
    Fr. C only came onboard many years AFTER Bp. Sanborn and PH Omlor espoused the idea.  I was at MHT during those years. 
    I had heard that P. Omlor was the person who first introduced it.  I didn't realize though that Bishop Sanborn promoted it before Father Cekada.  Thank you for sharing.
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    Offline AMDGJMJ

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #39 on: August 10, 2023, 07:19:30 AM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on August 09, 2023, 11:12:48 PM
    Fr. C was actually LATE to the game.  It was a practical move and when I was at MHT he totally disagreed with the anti-una-cuм position.  At-the-time Fr. Sanborn and PH Omlor had already espoused the position WELL before Fr. Cekada and Bp. Dolan did so.  Frankly, the best case, IMO, was made by PHO, whose entire argument was undone by an "anonymous" objection (made by Fr. Collins), one which PHO was honorable enough to present and answer at the end of his booklet Sedevecantists and the Una-cuм Problem.  I posted about this issue MANY times on CI years ago, but finding those comments would require some digging.
    God bless, Father Collins!  If only more traditional priests were like him!  He is sorely missed!

    I will have to look this up.  I didn't know that about his anonymous objection.  But, it makes sense from everything he told me over the years.  Thank you for mentioning this!
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    Offline Simeon

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #40 on: August 10, 2023, 10:04:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: DustyActual on August 09, 2023, 09:43:07 PM
    What do you think would happen if after being refused Communion for attending SSPX masses, said person would still attend bishop Sanborn's masses, but wouldn't receive Communion. Strictly speaking you're only obligated to receive once a year. You still fulfill your Sunday obligation even if you don't receive Communion.

    What I am certain would happen is that such people would sit in such chapels, attend Mass, and not receive Communion for years and years, if they decided they wished to suffer such treatment.  
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    Offline poenitens

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #41 on: July 18, 2024, 08:09:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on August 09, 2023, 11:12:48 PM
    Fr. C was actually LATE to the game.  It was a practical move and when I was at MHT he totally disagreed with the anti-una-cuм position.  At-the-time Fr. Sanborn and PH Omlor had already espoused the position WELL before Fr. Cekada and Bp. Dolan did so.  Frankly, the best case, IMO, was made by PHO, whose entire argument was undone by an "anonymous" objection (made by Fr. Collins), one which PHO was honorable enough to present and answer at the end of his booklet Sedevecantists and the Una-cuм Problem.  I posted about this issue MANY times on CI years ago, but finding those comments would require some digging.
    Ave María,

    Anybody knows where I can find the booklet "Sedevacantists and the una cuм problem" by Pattrick Henry Omlor or, at least, said objection by Fr. Collins?

    I've searched for it here on the forum but so far have not found it.
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    Offline Dominique

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #42 on: July 18, 2024, 04:35:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: AnthonyPadua on August 09, 2023, 11:26:15 PM
    This is one of the pros for the SSPX, at least they don't bar you from communion for stuff like this (or rejecting BoD/BoB/II).
    I am sorry to say they do it too! 
    I have heard of it happening in Europe, and it happened here in Australia too. Denied communion for attending 'Resistance' masses, to a child too!! 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #43 on: July 18, 2024, 05:23:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: gladius_veritatis on August 09, 2023, 11:29:25 PM
    I cannot speak from experience, as I have very rarely ASSISTED ;) at an SSPX Mass.  However, I have heard of SVs being treated similarly, even if rarely, by SSPX priests.  No one is blameless in the Wild West of Traddieland.  Sad but true.

    That's one of the actual good things about the SSPX. It is rare for someone to be denied the sacraments. It does happen, but not as much as in SV chapels. And no, I'm not against anyone attending an SV chapel. 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Are una cuм Masses sinful?
    « Reply #44 on: July 18, 2024, 06:25:21 PM »
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    • Quote from: Dominique on July 18, 2024, 04:35:57 PM
    I am sorry to say they do it too!
    I have heard of it happening in Europe, and it happened here in Australia too. Denied communion for attending 'Resistance' masses, to a child too!!
    Oh dear that's not good. Was the denial only for going to resistance mass? Or was doctrines on salvation and baptism also involved?
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