This question was posted to Raoul concerning his baptism earlier. Stevus- while I generally agree with you, I'm saddened that you would just go along with what was mentioned in that sspx post. I think the saddest part is that many who try to give Thuc a bad name in that he was mentally unstable, never seemed to have any personal contact with him and try to take away from his validity. Pretty sad in my opinion. There is not just "1" valid lineage of traditional bishops, but for obvious reasons, I think, some wish to make it seem that way.

The Thuc lineage, in my opinion, is valid- thankfully Pius XII gave him the faculties to consecrate without the  'okay' of Rome. Its those in Rome who hate tradition who first tried to paint him with an ugly brush. Many in the Trad movement have seemed to jump on board with it it seems. Too bad. His bishops do a lot of good.

Why risk your immortal soul by receiving sacraments from doubtful Thuc line priests?

Just because the NO-types make an argument doesn't mean it doesn't have some truth to it. AB Thuc kept contradicting himself and there is good question as to whether he knew what he was doing.

http://www.sspx.ca/Communicantes/Dec2004/Is_That_Chair_Vacant.htm

4.4. The Case of Bishop Thuc: No matter how divided is the Sedevacantist world, it is a matter of fact that it survives sacramentally thanks to the episcopal consecrations performed by Bishop Martin Ngo-Dinh-Thuc (1897-1984). Bishop Thuc was the former Roman Catholic Archbishop of Hué, Vietnam. At the time of the fall of Vietnam to Communism in 1975, he had to flee out of the country, and was more-or-less abandoned by Roman authorities. In 1976, he consecrated Bishop Clemente Dominguez y Gomez, the founder of the sect of Palmar de Troya, Spain. Bishop Thuc was then excommunicated by the Vatican for such consecration, but was 'reconciled' by Paul VI in the course of the same year. In 1977, the following year, he consecrated Bishop Laborie, the founder of the sect called Eglise Latine de Toulouse. Then, in 1981-1982, he consecrated Bishop Guérard des Lauriers and 3 other bishops in different ceremonies held in secret in his private apartment, in Toulon, France.  In 1982, he made a statement, called the Munich Declaration, by which he declared Vacancy of the See of Peter, in other words that John-Paul II lost his office. Last but not least, Bishop Thuc was finally 'reconciled' by the Vatican shortly before his death, in 1984. So, from 1976 till his death, Bishop Thuc had been oscillating between Sedevacantism and reconciliation with the Vatican. This fact is enough to question the seriousness of the Munich Declaration. I think that he was a good man much abused by many on account of his own readiness to consecrate bishops, but could not have been the one whom God chose as the instrument of His Providence, although his work has shown itself altogether 'providential' for the Sedevacantists!23 We should not forget that the present day Sedevacantist bishops, and then the priests they ordained are all coming from the lineage of Bishop Thuc.

No matter how divided is the Sedevacantist world, it is a matter of fact that it survives sacramentally thanks to the episcopal consecrations performed by Bishop Martin Ngo-Dinh-Thuc....

We should not forget that the present day Sedevacantist bishops, and then the priests they ordained are all coming from the lineage of Bishop Thuc.

This is incorrect as well. Some of the SV bishops exist because of +Thuc. But don't forget that there have been other consecrations.

To take Bishop Taylor for example, I will post his lineage here, and please bear in mind we are not talking about whether you agree with him or his positions, we are speaking "validity" here, look at his lineage. Now, I 'believe', he was conditionally consecrated by a Thuc-line Bishop, and did so only for recognitions sake (so that other trads wouldn't have a cow). Let me emphasize the "validity" as I'm sure there's someone who'll get caught up in the "they're not Cathoic!" emotion:

Old Catholic line

1. Arnold hαɾɾιs Matthew (1908): a former Roman Catholic priest ordained a bishop by the schismatic sect, the Old Catholic Church of Utrecht.

2. Arthur William Howarth (1910): an Anglican bishop who was ordained with the –pre- 1968] traditional Roman Pontifical.

3. Ignatius [William Albert] Nichols (1933): a former Episcopalian priest convert to Eastern Orthodoxy who possessed a Russian Orthodox line from his 1932 episcopal ordination by Archbishop Aftimios Ofiesh. Then in 1933, he received conditional episcopal ordination from Bishop Arthur Howarth, an Anglican bishop with valid orders using a schismatic Ordinal.

4. Theodotus [Stanislaus Witowski] DeWitow (1936): participated with two Orthodox
bishops at the episcopal ordination of Walter Myron Propheta.

5. Patriarch Wolodymyr [Walter Myron Propheta] (1964): Archbishop Walter Propheta, a Ukranian Orthodox priest was consecrated by Archbishop Joachim Souris, a Greek Orthodox prelate with a Russian Orthodox line and assisted by Archbishop Theodotus DeWitow. Personal contemporary of J. Edgard Hoover. Recognized as valid since 1965 by Cardinal Francis Spellman, the Archbishop of New York and his successor, Cardinal Terrence Cooke.

6. Francis Joseph Ryan (1969): possesses an Old Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and Russian Orthodox lines after receiving episcopal ordination from Archbishop Propheta. Through co-consecrator, Carey Leopold Presson, Bishop Ryan also has an Ethiopian Orthodox and Brazilian
Catholic line from Bishop Carlos Duarte Costa, officially recognized as valid by the Vatican since 1954.

7. Denis Michel Garrison (1985): Archbishop Denis Michel Garrison is an Eastern Orthodox prelate possessing an Old Catholic line, Greek Orthodox line, Russian Orthodox line, and a Brazilian Catholic line.

8. Paul Dolan (1987): co-consecrated Bishop Patrick Taylor with Archbishop Garrison and Bishop Michael Boucher.

9. Patrick Taylor (1993): a Roman Catholic priest who was ordained a bishop by Archbishop Denis Michel Garrison. He was later conditionally ordained by sedevacantist
prelate, Bishop Merril Adamson in 2001. Bishop Adamson was conditionally ordained by sedevacantist prelate, Bishop Jose Gaston Ramon Lopez.


Russian Orthodox line

1. Macarius [Makarij] Michael Neveskij (1884): Metropolitan of Moscow who was murdered by the Communists during the Russian Revolution.

2. Evdokim Basil Mikhailovich Mechersky (1903): Russian Orthodox archbishop of Alaska and Dean of the Moscow Theological Academy.

3. Aftimios [Abdullah] Ofiesh (1917): consecrated in the Russian Orthodox Cathedral of St. Nicholas in New York.

4. Sophronios Bishara (1928): American Orthodox bishop of Los Angeles.

5. Christopher Contogeorge [Kontogiorgios] (1934)



6. Arsenias Saltas (1934): Exarch in America of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria.

7. Joseph Klimovicz [Klimovitch] (1935)

8. Joachim Souris (1951)

9. Patriarch Wolodymyr [Walter Myron Propheta] (1964): Archbishop Walter Propheta, a Ukranian Orthodox priest was ordained by Archbishop Joachim Souris, a Greek Orthodox prelate (with a Russian Orthodox line) and  assisted by Archbishop Theodotus DeWitow. Personal contemporary of J. Edgard Hoover. Recognized as valid since 1965 by Cardinal Francis Spellman, the Archbishop of New York and his successor, Cardinal Terrence Cooke.

10. Francis Joseph Ryan (1969): appointed auxiliary bishop for the Orthodox diocese of New York. Through co-consecrator, Carey Leopold Presson, Bishop Ryan has an Ethiopian Orthodox line and a Brazilian Catholic line recognized by the Vatican to be valid since 1954.

11. Denis Michel Garrison (1985): Archbishop Denis Michel Garrison is an Eastern Orthodox prelate possessing an Old Catholic line, Greek Orthodox line, Russian Orthodox line, and a Brazilian Catholic line.

12. Patrick Taylor (1993): a Roman Catholic priest who was ordained a bishop by Archbishop Denis Michel Garrison. He was later conditionally ordained by sedevacantist prelate, Bishop Merril Adamson in 2001. Bishop Adamson was conditionally ordained by sedevacantist prelate, Bishop Jose Gaston Ramon Lopez (whose validity is recognized by the Society of St. Pius X).

Second Russian Orthodox Line

1. Macarius [Makarij] Michael Neveskij (1884): Metropolitan of Moscow who was murdered by the Communists during the Russian Revolution.

2. Evdokim Basil Mikhailovich Mechersky (1903): Russian Orthodox archbishop of Alaska and Dean of the Moscow Theological Academy.

3. Aftimios [Abdullah] Ofiesh (1917): consecrated in the Russian Orthodox Cathedral of St. Nicholas in New York.

4. Ignatius [William Albert] Nichols (1933): a former Episcopalian priest convert to Eastern Orthodoxy who possessed a Russian Orthodox line from his 1932 episcopal ordination by Archbishop Aftimios Ofiesh. Then in 1933, he received conditional episcopal ordination
from Bishop Arthur Howarth, an Anglican bishop  conditionally consecrated by Old Catholic prelate, Bishop Arnold hαɾɾιs Matthew using the Roman Pontifical.

5. Theodotus [Stanislaus Witowski] DeWitow (1936): participated with two Orthodox bishops at the episcopal ordination of Walter Myron Propheta.

6. Patriarch Wolodymyr [Walter Myron Propheta] (1964): Archbishop Walter Propheta, a Ukranian Orthodox priest was consecrated by Archbishop Joachim Souris, a Greek
Orthodox prelate with a Russian Orthodox line and assisted by Archbishop Theodotus DeWitow. Personal contemporary of J. Edgard Hoover. Recognized as valid since 1965 by Cardinal Francis Spellman, the Archbishop of New York and his successor, Cardinal Terrence Cooke.

7. Francis Joseph Ryan (1969): possesses an Old Catholic, Greek Orthodox, and Russian Orthodox lines after receiving episcopal ordination from Archbishop Propheta. Through co-consecrator, Carey Leopold Presson, Bishop Ryan also has an Ethiopian Orthodox and Brazilian
Catholic line from Bishop Carlos Duarte Costa, officially recognized as valid by the Vatican since 1954.

8. Denis Michel Garrison (1985): Archbishop Denis Michel Garrison is an Eastern Orthodox prelate possessing an Old Catholic line, Greek Orthodox line, Russian Orthodox line, and a Brazilian Catholic line.

9. Patrick Taylor (1993): a Roman Catholic priest who was ordained a bishop by Archbishop Denis Michel Garrison. He was later conditionally ordained by sedevacantist
prelate, Bishop Merril Adamson in 2001. Bishop Adamson was conditionally ordained by sedevacantist prelate, Bishop Jose Gaston Ramon Lopez.

Roman Catholic and schismatic Brazilian Catholic lines

1. Mariano Rampolla (1882): Cardinal Mariano Rampolla, an excommunicated Freemason who served as Vatican Secretary of State to Pope Leo XIII.

2. Joaquim Acrcoverde de Albuquerque Cavalcanti (1890): appointed cardinal by Pope St. Pius X.

3. Sebastian Leme da Silveira Cintra (1911) appointed cardinal by Pope Pius XI.

4. Carlos Duarte Costa (1924): A former diocesan bishop who was excommunicated and declared vitandus by Pope Pius XII for creating a schismatic sect called the Brazilian Catholic Church. Coincidentally, his episcopal lineage comes from an excommunicated Catholic bishop.

5. Salamao Ferraz (1945): Originally a Protestant minister, he was consecrated a bishop by Bishop Duarte Costa and later became Roman Catholic under Pius XII. He did not receive conditional episcopal ordination and was allowed to keep his wife, whom he married before his conversion. In 1961, Pope John XXIII appointed him auxiliary bishop for the Archdiocese of Rio de Janeiro and served as Council Father at the Second Vatican Council.

6. Esteban Mayer Corradi-Scarella (1945): established a schismatic sect in Albuquerque, New Mexico. Msgr. Duarte Costa participated as co-consecrator at his episcopal ordination.

7. Emile Frederico Rodriguez Fairfield (1954)


8. Robert Norton (1974)

9. Francis Jerome Joachim (1974)

10. Justo Roque Gonzalez-Trimino (1974)

11. Carey Leopold Presson (1983)

12. Denis Michel Garrison (1985): Archbishop Denis Michel Garrison is an Eastern Orthodox prelate possessing an Old Catholic line, Greek Orthodox line, Russian Orthodox line, and a Brazilian Catholic line.

13. Patrick Taylor (1993): a Roman Catholic priest who was ordained a bishop by Archbishop Denis Michel Garrison. He was later conditionally ordained by sedevacantist prelate, Bishop Merril Adamson in 2001. Bishop Adamson was conditionally ordained by sedevacantist prelate, Bishop Jose Gaston Ramon Lopez.

Charismatic Catholic Church of Canada Line

This schismatic sect has a valid priesthood because it contains an Old Catholic and Eastern
Orthodox lineages and uses a vernacular translation of the 1962 Roman Pontifical. Their line is
recognized by Rome since 2002 after the late Cardinal Edouard Gagnon (d. 2007), the prefect
for the Pontifical Council of the Family, personally investigated it when he learned his former
seminary classmate, Bishop Andre Barbeau, founded this schismatic and heretical sect. The late
Fr. Malachi Martin, a former secretary of Cardinal Augustine Bea, publicly testified that Bishop
Taylor was acknowledged by Rome with valid orders. Dr. Rama Coomaraswamy, a former
SSPX seminary professor of ecclesiastical history also acknowledged this line as valid.

1. Andre Barbeau (1968): Fr. Andre Barbeau was ordained a Roman Catholic priest for the Archdiocese of Montreal. He was also a seminary classmate of Cardinal Edouard Gagnon, the prefect for the Pontifical Council for the Family. Dissatisfied with the Roman Catholic Church,
Fr. Barbeau established the Charismatic Catholic Church of Canada in 1968 and received episcopal ordination from an Old Catholic bishop. In 1980, Bishop Barbeau was conditionally ordained a bishop by Bishop Patrick McReynolds, whose line directly comes from Archbishop
Walter Myron Propheta, an Orthodox prelate with Old Catholic and Russian Orthodox lines recognized as valid since 1965 by Cardinal Francis Spellman and Cardinal Terrence Cooke.

2. Michael Boucher (1989): Ordained a bishop by Bishop Andre Barbeau in 1989 using a French translation of the 1962 Roman Pontifical. Archbishop Michael Boucher served as principal consecrator in Bishop Patrick Taylor’s episcopal ordination and was assisted by co-consecrators: Archbishop Denis Michel Garrison and Bishop Paul Dolan (who was ordained a bishop by Archbishop Garrison).

3. Patrick Taylor (1993): a Roman Catholic priest who was consecrated with the pre-1968
Roman Pontifical by Bishop Michael Boucher and co-consecrated by Archbishop Denis Michel
Garrison and Bishop Paul Dolan. He was later conditionally ordained by sedevacantist prelate,
Bishop Merril Adamson in 2001. Bishop Adamson was conditionally ordained a bishop by
sedevacantist prelate, Bishop Jose Gaston Ramon Lopez.

So overkill? Yes. But I posted this for 2 reasons:

1st: To show sedevecantism would be alive w/ out +Thuc

2nd: To post this for this simple reason of posting it  

Unfortunately, there was nothing of substance in that Stevus... nothing to say that there was anything worth questioning on the validity of the consecrations. So, he did them in secret? We are in a state of the church being underground in many cases. Whether we admit that as such is up to our own opinion. I wont tear the article apart, as it'd waste both of our time, but I will say this. If these were 'normal' times (of the church), I would say, okay question these consecrations, and if you had to have the bishops conditionally consecrated, then okay. But to deny these are times where keeping the Traditions and Sacraments of the Church alive are challenging ones, is to lie to yourself. Four "T" Traditional bishops for the entirety of the Catholic Church does not suffice, and its sad to see that some try to make it that way, unfortunately. The reasons for casting of doubt against the Thuc line are obvious, but I will leave it up to everyone to decide that for themselves.

Actually, the quote from sspx.ca seems to indicate that the Society believes the Thuc line consecrations are completely valid even if the Society thinks them unwise.  Frankly, the Thuc line consecrations are just as unwise as the Lefebvre line consecrations.

And I believe that the Society will either join the ranks of the sedevacantists or they will fracture.  And I still think that the catalist for this will be the formal acceptance by Rome for the ordination of women.