Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Are Sedevacantists Schismatics?  (Read 5435 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DigitalLogos

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8316
  • Reputation: +4706/-754
  • Gender: Male
  • Slave to the Sacred Heart
    • Twitter
Re: Are Sedevacantists Schismatics?
« Reply #135 on: August 02, 2021, 09:43:24 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • DigitalLogos, there are more alternatives to consider than simply “either-or”.  Just because a pope says something is part of the universal magisterium doesn’t make it so.  He has to prove it.  He didn’t and neither did any V2 pope.
    But, isn't it his job to make those decisions as the embodiment of the rule of Faith?
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 13825
    • Reputation: +5568/-865
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Are Sedevacantists Schismatics?
    « Reply #136 on: August 03, 2021, 04:47:00 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • On the Universal Ordinary Magisterium:

    Quote
    All those things are to be believed with divine and Catholic faith which are contained in the Word of God, written or handed down, and are proposed by the Church either by a solemn judgment or by her ordinary and universal magisterium to be believed as divinely revealed.
    (Dogmatic constitution Dei Filius, chapter 3, “Concerning Faith”, Denzinger 1792)
    I am wondering where you got the bolded text as it is not copied from the above link, nor from V1, which both say essentially  the same thing.

    From the above link:
    "1792 [The object of faith] .Further, by divine and Catholic faith, all those things must be believed which are contained in the written word of God and in tradition, and those which are proposed by the Church, either in a solemn pronouncement or in her ordinary and universal teaching power, to be believed as divinely revealed."

    From V1:
    "Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the Church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium."

    The reason I ask is because the entire quoted teaching is rendered meaningless, or at least confused, when the word "by" is inserted in place of the word "in".  



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10312
    • Reputation: +6220/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Are Sedevacantists Schismatics?
    « Reply #137 on: August 03, 2021, 09:19:40 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    But, isn't it his job to make those decisions as the embodiment of the rule of Faith?

    Common sense comes into play here.  Can the pope add an 8th sacrament?  Can the pope dispense with the Sunday obligation?  Obviously not.  How do we know this?  Because we know the basic rules of our Faith.

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8316
    • Reputation: +4706/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Are Sedevacantists Schismatics?
    « Reply #138 on: August 03, 2021, 09:32:34 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Common sense comes into play here.  Can the pope add an 8th sacrament?  Can the pope dispense with the Sunday obligation?  Obviously not.  How do we know this?  Because we know the basic rules of our Faith.
    Yes, but he didn't do either of those things. He introduced a new order of mass, which is well within his power to do. Just as it's within his power to clarify teachings and apply them with the weight of the ordinary magisterium. It is his job, if he is the Pope, to define things regarding faith and morals. Both the council and the new "mass" fall well within the powers of the papacy, just as it is within Bergoglio's power to abrogate whichever rite of Mass he desires. If he possesses the keys of heaven, then it is within his right to bind and loose.

    I am not advocating for the actions here of either Paul VI or Francis, as I believe they are not true Popes, but merely illustrating that if they possess the papacy, as claimed, then these acts are well within their rights despite what some lay theologians, bishops, or priests may tell us.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10312
    • Reputation: +6220/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Are Sedevacantists Schismatics?
    « Reply #139 on: August 03, 2021, 09:37:57 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    Yes, but he didn't do either of those things. He introduced a new order of mass, which is well within his power to do. 
    He changed the words of consecration!  He has no power to do that.  He gutted/edited the Offertory and Canon.  Again, he crossed the line.  Common sense. 
    .
    Everyone in the 60s knew it was a bold, daring change.  I don’t understand how 40-50 years later, people argue that a pope “has the power” to change the mass essentially.  


    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8316
    • Reputation: +4706/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Are Sedevacantists Schismatics?
    « Reply #140 on: August 03, 2021, 09:52:51 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • He changed the words of consecration!  He has no power to do that.  He gutted/edited the Offertory and Canon.  Again, he crossed the line.  Common sense.
    .
    Everyone in the 60s knew it was a bold, daring change.  I don’t understand how 40-50 years later, people argue that a pope “has the power” to change the mass essentially.  
    You're right, no Pope can change the Mass essentially, and Paul VI was not a Pope. Yet, it is within a true Pope's power to introduce a new rite of Mass and even make changes to the canon (as St. Gregory the Great did when he introduced the Pater into the canon) provided they do not change the essence of the rite, yes? As a true Pope can make any changes he desires provided, only being limited by Tradition itself.

    Because these changes were made, in an effort to change the essence of the rite itself, is proof positive that Paul VI could not have been a legitimate Pope.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 10312
    • Reputation: +6220/-1742
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Are Sedevacantists Schismatics?
    « Reply #141 on: August 03, 2021, 10:32:30 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    You're right, no Pope can change the Mass essentially, and Paul VI was not a Pope.
    That's circular logic.
    .

    Quote
    Yet, it is within a true Pope's power to introduce a new rite of Mass
    This is only accurate if you qualify the statement and say that the "new rite" is essentially the same as the previous rites.  No pope has the power to introduce a brand new, substantially different from Apostolic times, rite.
    .

    Quote
    and even make changes to the canon (as St. Gregory the Great did when he introduced the Pater into the canon)
    The Pater is not part of the canon, so he didn't change the canon.
    .

    Quote
    provided they do not change the essence of the rite, yes? As a true Pope can make any changes he desires provided, only being limited by Tradition itself.
    The parameters of Tradition and non-essential changes are VERY BIG parameters.  So when you say a pope can do "anything he desires" that's quasi-contradictory.  It would be like taking your car to the paint shop and saying, "You can paint anything you want, in any style, but I only want my bumper painted red to match the rest of my car."  It's a stupid statement because you say "anything" but then define this word to mean something very specific.
    .

    Quote
    Because these changes were made, in an effort to change the essence of the rite itself, is proof positive that Paul VI could not have been a legitimate Pope.

    Again, circular logic.
    1.  A pope has no authority to change the essential parts of the mass. 
    2.  Paul VI changed the essential parts of the mass.
    3.  Therefore, such changes are illegal and without authority.
    .
    Inserting the idea that he's illegitimate, AS A POPE, makes no sense, because it's his act that's illegitimate, not his papacy.
    .
    If you want to argue that he's not the pope based on 10,000 other reasons, then ok.  But simply because a pope issued an illegal order doesn't mean he loses his entire authority.

    Offline DigitalLogos

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8316
    • Reputation: +4706/-754
    • Gender: Male
    • Slave to the Sacred Heart
      • Twitter
    Re: Are Sedevacantists Schismatics?
    « Reply #142 on: August 03, 2021, 11:05:52 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • That's circular logic.
    .
    This is only accurate if you qualify the statement and say that the "new rite" is essentially the same as the previous rites.  No pope has the power to introduce a brand new, substantially different from Apostolic times, rite.
    .
    The Pater is not part of the canon, so he didn't change the canon.
    .
    The parameters of Tradition and non-essential changes are VERY BIG parameters.  So when you say a pope can do "anything he desires" that's quasi-contradictory.  It would be like taking your car to the paint shop and saying, "You can paint anything you want, in any style, but I only want my bumper painted red to match the rest of my car."  It's a stupid statement because you say "anything" but then define this word to mean something very specific.
    .

    Again, circular logic.
    1.  A pope has no authority to change the essential parts of the mass.  
    2.  Paul VI changed the essential parts of the mass.
    3.  Therefore, such changes are illegal and without authority.
    .
    Inserting the idea that he's illegitimate, AS A POPE, makes no sense, because it's his act that's illegitimate, not his papacy.
    .
    If you want to argue that he's not the pope based on 10,000 other reasons, then ok.  But simply because a pope issued an illegal order doesn't mean he loses his entire authority.
    Yeah, you're right. I concede
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]