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Author Topic: Are Protestants Christians?  (Read 1911 times)

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Offline Bonafidecat

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Are Protestants Christians?
« on: Yesterday at 01:46:41 PM »
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    • A few months ago, I read this article below that was written by a Prot-convert to Catholicism.  
    Protestants Are Not Christians | The Fatima Center

    I certainly do NOT regard them as Christians with the obvious exception of the baptized children.  Having said that, I was shocked at the answers I received to my question when I presented it to 3 SSPX priests, plus 1 on-line priest, Fr. James Mawdsley.  Here are the responses:

    SSPX priest #1) "NO, they are not".

    SSPX priest #2) "Yes, because they believe that Jesus is the Son of God".  When I pushed back, he replied, "well, it depends on how one defines "Christian".  Frankly, I was so stunned by his answer that I ended the discussion, but let him know that I absolutely deny that they are Christians.  He said the question is "open to discussion"...

    SSPX priest#3) "Generally speaking, they could be considered to be Christians, but strictly speaking, they are not."  After pushing back with him a bit and noting that by their rejection of the Church, they reject Christ, he finally said, "Generally speaking, they might be called Christian, but I just don't see how they could be considered "Christians" when they reject the teachings of Christ".  I think some progress was made with him.

    Fr. Mawdsley) This was copied from his email to me: "For your question, as I understand it, we become Christians by baptism. So an infant baptised becomes Christian in that moment and will remain a member of the Body of Christ until (if) they embrace heresy. Normally this would not happen until they reach the age of reason (6 or 7 years old). At some point after that, if they consciously accept Protestnatism, then they cut themselves off from the Body. [Falling out of a state of grace could come before adopting heresy.]

    Because of Baptism, I think Protestants are Chritians, but that should be qualified wherever there can be a misunderstanding by adding that they are schismatics and heretics. To deny one article of Faith is to have no faith at all (St Thomas explains why).

    So I do not have a definitive answer. But I am OK with calling Protestants Christians as long as it is not left in doubt that this is due to their Baptism while according to their beliefs they are outside the Church as heretics."


    It's surprising to me what appears to be utter confusion to such a basic question.  
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    "Poor Jews! You invoked a dreadful curse upon your own heads; and that curse, miserable race, you carry upon you to this day, and to the End of Time you shall endure the chastisement of that innocent blood!" (St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori) 


    "There is only one Christian faith, that is: Catholic." (St. Bridget of Sweden)

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Protestants Christians?
    « Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 06:22:00 PM »
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    • So, as with many things, the confusing is based on whether you're using the term in a NATURAL sense, or a strict theological sense.

    You can distinguish a Christian, for instance, from a Muslim or a Jew, on a NATURAL level, where it's based on a material set of belief (even if the supernatural motive is lacking) consisting of at least belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation

    Theologically, if you use the term to refer to those who are Members of Christ's Body, then it's only Catholics who are Christian.

    I think that the "Baptism" distinction isn't even in play, so it's a false criterion that someone injected.

    Natural:  set of (material / objective) beliefts in at least the Holy Trinity and Incarnation
    Theological:  members of Christ's Body (aka Catholics)

    Now, Catechumens are always considered "borderline", with one foot in and one foot out of the Church, or, as St. Robert Bellarmine made a metaphor, "in the vestibule" of the Church.  When people became Catechumens in the early Church, they were signed with the sign of the Cross and were in fact permitted to call themselves Christians.  Among Christians, then, you had "the Faithful" (baptized + profess true faith = fully Catholic) vs. "the Catechumens" (those in process of becoming Catholics, professing at least naturally the Catholic faith, with something called a fides initialis, a natural analogue to Catholic Faith).

    Baptism by itself doesn't make someone a Christian.  Let's say you were baptized as an infant but then raised an atheist, and never once in your life professed any belief in Christ, the Holy Trinity, or anything else.  Is that person a "Christian" in any sense?  No.  Baptism by itself doesn't cut it.

    I find it unfortunate how few of the clergy actually apply what they learn or are supposed to learn, in Logic, Philosphy, and Theology class.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Protestants Christians?
    « Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 06:24:59 PM »
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    • That's actually one of the heretical novelties introduced by Vatican II, where they taught that the heretics are indeed true Christians, in the theological sense, formally united to the Church of Christ (which subsists in the Catholic Church) merely by their right formal intention (i.e. they're sincere and therefore are not formal heretic yada yada yada).  That's at the heart of the Vatican II heresy and it defines the theological trajectory that created the Conciliar Church.

    At most you can use the term in a "natural" way, as I said, Christian, as in not Muslim or Hindu or Jew, etc. ... defined as a merely objective or material set of beliefs.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Protestants Christians?
    « Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 06:32:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bonafidecat on Yesterday at 01:46:41 PM
    SSPX priest#3) "Generally speaking, they could be considered to be Christians, but strictly speaking, they are not."  After pushing back with him a bit and noting that by their rejection of the Church, they reject Christ, he finally said, "Generally speaking, they might be called Christian, but I just don't see how they could be considered "Christians" when they reject the teachings of Christ".  I think some progress was made with him.

    Idiotic.  What does "generally speaking" mean?  He's probably grasping at the distinction I articulated between natural (colloquial / material) vs. theological.

    Closest thing to "generally speaking" and "strictly speaking" (the latter being wrong) would be ...

    Well, they're not Christians simpliciter (i.e. without distinction or "generally speaking"), but only secundum quid .. meaning, only in a certain sense (which you then have to articulate and not just leave it clear as mud).  What quid?  You have the onus of articulating this to demonstrate that your distinction is valid in the first place.

    Also conflating nonsense "reject the teachings of Christ".  Reject in what sense?  Most Christians will claim to accept Christ's teachings, and they generally do accept them, materially speaking, at least most of them, the ones they think are Christ's teachings.

    What is actually the reality is that it has to do with WHY someone accepts or rejects the teachings of Christ, the formal motive of supernatural faith, which can only be the teaching authority of the Church.  Purely hypothetically ... it could happen that someone believes every single teaching of Christ, but they came to these beliefs by careful Bible study, on their own, and they happened to get it right.  Of course, in reality that means they become Catholic and such a thing could never happen.  But in theory they could believe every teaching of Christ, but if they don't believe it for the right reasons, they lack the supernatural motive of faith and are not "strictly speaking" Christian either, whatever that means.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Protestants Christians?
    « Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 06:35:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bonafidecat on Yesterday at 01:46:41 PM
    A few months ago, I read this article below that was written by a Prot-convert to Catholicism. 
    Protestants Are Not Christians | The Fatima Center

    I certainly do NOT regard them as Christians with the obvious exception of the baptized children.  Having said that, I was shocked at the answers I received to my question when I presented it to 3 SSPX priests, plus 1 on-line priest, Fr. James Mawdsley.  Here are the responses:

    SSPX priest #1) "NO, they are not".

    SSPX priest #2) "Yes, because they believe that Jesus is the Son of God".  When I pushed back, he replied, "well, it depends on how one defines "Christian".  Frankly, I was so stunned by his answer that I ended the discussion, but let him know that I absolutely deny that they are Christians.  He said the question is "open to discussion"...

    SSPX priest#3) "Generally speaking, they could be considered to be Christians, but strictly speaking, they are not."  After pushing back with him a bit and noting that by their rejection of the Church, they reject Christ, he finally said, "Generally speaking, they might be called Christian, but I just don't see how they could be considered "Christians" when they reject the teachings of Christ".  I think some progress was made with him.

    Fr. Mawdsley) This was copied from his email to me: "For your question, as I understand it, we become Christians by baptism. So an infant baptised becomes Christian in that moment and will remain a member of the Body of Christ until (if) they embrace heresy. Normally this would not happen until they reach the age of reason (6 or 7 years old). At some point after that, if they consciously accept Protestnatism, then they cut themselves off from the Body. [Falling out of a state of grace could come before adopting heresy.]

    Because of Baptism, I think Protestants are Chritians, but that should be qualified wherever there can be a misunderstanding by adding that they are schismatics and heretics. To deny one article of Faith is to have no faith at all (St Thomas explains why).

    So I do not have a definitive answer. But I am OK with calling Protestants Christians as long as it is not left in doubt that this is due to their Baptism while according to their beliefs they are outside the Church as heretics."


    It's surprising to me what appears to be utter confusion to such a basic question. 

    Of these 3, none of them have the correct complete answer and make the proper distinction.  SSPX priest #1 at least answers the question from the theological point of view, but he doesn't articulate why, and he doesn't explain that the term could be used colloqually to refer to their material set of beliefs vs. those of other false religions.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Protestants Christians?
    « Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 06:37:40 PM »
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    • It really is quite sad that at Christmas time I listed to a sermon with at least a half dozen Christological heresies uttered.  Now, undboutedly not pertinacious ... and he's a great priest, virtuous, kind, devout, etc. -- but man does it say something about the state of education at the modern SSPX seminary, although even when I was there 35 years ago I was often left with jaw open when arguing various theological or philosophical matters with ordained deacons (in their last year of formation and education) where I wouldn't pass them in the first semester of a Philosophy course, much less the rest of the curriculum.
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    Offline WorldsAway

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    Re: Are Protestants Christians?
    « Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 06:38:34 PM »
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    • I would recommend Fr. Michael Müeller's Familiar Explanation of Christian Doctrine and The Catholic Dogma to anyone who does not understand why Protestants are not Christian. (I might be getting those titles a little wrong)

    Essentially, he says that a Christian is someone who is baptised and professes Christs doctrine. (Although Lad makes an interesting point regarding Catechumens.)
    As the 'Christ' Protestants claim to follow does not have a blessed virgin free from all sin as his mother, and as he did not institute seven sacraments, the papacy, the Catholic Church, etc..the 'Christ' they claim to follow cannot be Our Lord Jesus Christ. They do not know Our Lord and they do not profess His Doctrine, so they are not Christian
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    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.

    Offline Michelle

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    Re: Are Protestants Christians?
    « Reply #7 on: Yesterday at 06:46:21 PM »
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    • Any soul that is validly baptized receives an indelible mark on his soul and becomes a child of God. The Holy Spirit takes up His abode in that soul.
    Prior to Vatican ll, the Church never referred to Protestants or heretics as Christian.  Unfortunately even Traditional Catholics have adopted the false modernist language of calling Bible readers, Christian.
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    Offline Bonafidecat

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    Re: Are Protestants Christians?
    « Reply #8 on: Yesterday at 08:01:11 PM »
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    • Quote from: Michelle on Yesterday at 06:46:21 PM
    Any soul that is validly baptized receives an indelible mark on his soul and becomes a child of God. The Holy Spirit takes up His abode in that soul.
    Prior to Vatican ll, the Church never referred to Protestants or heretics as Christian.  Unfortunately even Traditional Catholics have adopted the false modernist language of calling Bible readers, Christian.

    In Bishop George Hay's The Sincere Christian, published in the 1780's, he refers to the Protestants as one of the two great "Christian bodies".  
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    "Poor Jews! You invoked a dreadful curse upon your own heads; and that curse, miserable race, you carry upon you to this day, and to the End of Time you shall endure the chastisement of that innocent blood!" (St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori) 


    "There is only one Christian faith, that is: Catholic." (St. Bridget of Sweden)

    Offline Bonafidecat

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    Re: Are Protestants Christians?
    « Reply #9 on: Yesterday at 08:06:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on Yesterday at 06:22:00 PM
    So, as with many things, the confusing is based on whether you're using the term in a NATURAL sense, or a strict theological sense.

    You can distinguish a Christian, for instance, from a Muslim or a Jew, on a NATURAL level, where it's based on a material set of belief (even if the supernatural motive is lacking) consisting of at least belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation

    Theologically, if you use the term to refer to those who are Members of Christ's Body, then it's only Catholics who are Christian.

    I think that the "Baptism" distinction isn't even in play, so it's a false criterion that someone injected.

    Natural:  set of (material / objective) beliefts in at least the Holy Trinity and Incarnation
    Theological:  members of Christ's Body (aka Catholics)

    Now, Catechumens are always considered "borderline", with one foot in and one foot out of the Church, or, as St. Robert Bellarmine made a metaphor, "in the vestibule" of the Church.  When people became Catechumens in the early Church, they were signed with the sign of the Cross and were in fact permitted to call themselves Christians.  Among Christians, then, you had "the Faithful" (baptized + profess true faith = fully Catholic) vs. "the Catechumens" (those in process of becoming Catholics, professing at least naturally the Catholic faith, with something called a fides initialis, a natural analogue to Catholic Faith).

    Baptism by itself doesn't make someone a Christian.  Let's say you were baptized as an infant but then raised an atheist, and never once in your life professed any belief in Christ, the Holy Trinity, or anything else.  Is that person a "Christian" in any sense?  No.  Baptism by itself doesn't cut it.

    I find it unfortunate how few of the clergy actually apply what they learn or are supposed to learn, in Logic, Philosphy, and Theology class.
     Thanks for the explanation, but I need a clarification.  I was under the impression that an infant that is baptized, enters the Church and is at that moment a Christian, no?  What happens later on is immaterial at this point.
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    "Poor Jews! You invoked a dreadful curse upon your own heads; and that curse, miserable race, you carry upon you to this day, and to the End of Time you shall endure the chastisement of that innocent blood!" (St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori) 


    "There is only one Christian faith, that is: Catholic." (St. Bridget of Sweden)

    Offline Bonafidecat

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    Re: Are Protestants Christians?
    « Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 08:14:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on Yesterday at 06:32:23 PM
    Idiotic.  What does "generally speaking" mean?  He's probably grasping at the distinction I articulated between natural (colloquial / material) vs. theological.

    Closest thing to "generally speaking" and "strictly speaking" (the latter being wrong) would be ...

    Well, they're not Christians simpliciter (i.e. without distinction or "generally speaking"), but only secundum quid .. meaning, only in a certain sense (which you then have to articulate and not just leave it clear as mud).  What quid?  You have the onus of articulating this to demonstrate that your distinction is valid in the first place.

    Also conflating nonsense "reject the teachings of Christ".  Reject in what sense?  Most Christians will claim to accept Christ's teachings, and they generally do accept them, materially speaking, at least most of them, the ones they think are Christ's teachings.

    What is actually the reality is that it has to do with WHY someone accepts or rejects the teachings of Christ, the formal motive of supernatural faith, which can only be the teaching authority of the Church.  Purely hypothetically ... it could happen that someone believes every single teaching of Christ, but they came to these beliefs by careful Bible study, on their own, and they happened to get it right.  Of course, in reality that means they become Catholic and such a thing could never happen.  But in theory they could believe every teaching of Christ, but if they don't believe it for the right reasons, they lack the supernatural motive of faith and are not "strictly speaking" Christian either, whatever that means.

    I was thinking that by rejecting the Church teachings, the Prots reject Christ himself, whether they know it or not (He who hears you hears me.  He who rejects you rejects me".  No one who rejects Christ is a Christian.
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    "Poor Jews! You invoked a dreadful curse upon your own heads; and that curse, miserable race, you carry upon you to this day, and to the End of Time you shall endure the chastisement of that innocent blood!" (St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori) 


    "There is only one Christian faith, that is: Catholic." (St. Bridget of Sweden)

    Offline IndultCat

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    Re: Are Protestants Christians?
    « Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 08:16:37 PM »
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    • Answer: Yes. According to Pope Leo XIII, they are our "separated brethren." Like it or not, that's the Church's teaching.
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    Offline Bonafidecat

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    Re: Are Protestants Christians?
    « Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 08:19:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Yesterday at 06:38:34 PM
    I would recommend Fr. Michael Müeller's Familiar Explanation of Christian Doctrine and The Catholic Dogma to anyone who does not understand why Protestants are not Christian. (I might be getting those titles a little wrong)

    Essentially, he says that a Christian is someone who is baptised and professes Christs doctrine. (Although Lad makes an interesting point regarding Catechumens.)
    As the 'Christ' Protestants claim to follow does not have a blessed virgin free from all sin as his mother, and as he did not institute seven sacraments, the papacy, the Catholic Church, etc..the 'Christ' they claim to follow cannot be Our Lord Jesus Christ. They do not know Our Lord and they do not profess His Doctrine, so they are not Christian

    I always considered a Christian to be one who is baptized and believes Catholic doctrine.  Apparently, Ladislaus mentions distinctions that need to be made, something I didn't consider.
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    "Poor Jews! You invoked a dreadful curse upon your own heads; and that curse, miserable race, you carry upon you to this day, and to the End of Time you shall endure the chastisement of that innocent blood!" (St. Alphonsus Maria Liguori) 


    "There is only one Christian faith, that is: Catholic." (St. Bridget of Sweden)

    Offline IndultCat

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    Re: Are Protestants Christians?
    « Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 08:31:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: WorldsAway on Yesterday at 06:38:34 PM
    I would recommend Fr. Michael Müeller's Familiar Explanation of Christian Doctrine and The Catholic Dogma to anyone who does not understand why Protestants are not Christian. (I might be getting those titles a little wrong)
    As good of a writer Mueller was (his Holy Rosary and Scapulars book is a personal favorite), he erred with his position on Protestants. Pope Leo XIII called Protestants our "separated brethren" and the Pope's position carries infinitely more weight than Mueller's position.  
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    Offline IndultCat

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    Re: Are Protestants Christians?
    « Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 08:34:57 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bonafidecat on Yesterday at 01:46:41 PM
    A few months ago, I read this article below that was written by a Prot-convert to Catholicism. 
    Protestants Are Not Christians | The Fatima Center

    I certainly do NOT regard them as Christians with the obvious exception of the baptized children. 
    Sorry but Pope Leo XIII considered Protestants Christians and referred to them as our "separated brethren" and a Pope's position on such a matter carries infinitely more weight than any member of The Fatima Center.
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