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Author Topic: The biggest reason I'm not Sede  (Read 124102 times)

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Offline Matthew

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Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
« Reply #45 on: Today at 09:06:15 AM »
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  • What you can do is consider him a papa dubius where, as a result, for all intents and purposes he lacks authority (per all the theologians), but then "hedge your bets" a bit by obeying him where you can ... just in case you're wrong (Bishop Sanborn's condemnation of Opninionism, as he called it, was 100% erroneous).

    You need to at least have a papa dubius position in order to legitimately refuse submission and communion to the extent that Trads do.  Without at least a well founded doubt, the R&R position is schismatic and implicitly heretical.

    R&R needs to become D&R = "Doubt & Resist".  Doubt suffices for Resistance.  Recognition does not ... that makes you a schismatic.

    I certainly have doubts about the Pope. I'm not a "dogmatic sedeplenist". I don't believe that to be a reasonable position.
    But that doesn't mean I can't oppose sedevacantism (or argue with individual sedevacantists). The position is about FALSE certainty, simplistic solutions, sectarianism, and worst of all -- the whole position does NOTHING to solve the Crisis. Practically speaking, sedevacantists live just like Resistance or classic SSPXers. What's the point exactly?

    "Then you should have come up with a better word than "RECOGNIZE and resist!"

    Uh, that term was coined by Fr. Cekada, who used it as a derogatory term of mockery. He invented it to use as a SLUR.

    I'm sort of "OK" with the term because it DOES describe the position. "Recognize" because we aren't sedevacantist, "Resist" because we're not going along with the new religion and Modernism, or any commands (outside his authority, I might add) which tend to put our Faith at risk.
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #46 on: Today at 09:28:47 AM »
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  • Here's one possible motive: $$$
    How would there be monetary profit in that?  I’d think the opposite!  Are Sedevacantists very wealthy compared with other traditional Catholics?  And generous?  


    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #47 on: Today at 09:34:03 AM »
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  • Is because "sedevacantism" is divisive. It's adding a COMPLETELY UN-NECESSARY division to the world of Traditional Catholicism.

    In other words, I'm not against individual "sedevacantists" for their opinion. Their opinion doesn't make me angry. The whole idea of "sedevacantism" as an identity DOES make me angry, however. "Traditional Catholic" should be enough. The idea that "sedevacantists" need to worship only with other "sedevacantists" at special "sedevacantist" chapels.
    This sounds like the argument of the novus ordo against tradition. 

    Offline Everlast22

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #48 on: Today at 09:34:55 AM »
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  • How would there be monetary profit in that?  I’d think the opposite!  Are Sedevacantists very wealthy compared with other traditional Catholics?  And generous? 
    It keeps members in his church. Like I said, people need someone to follow. 

    Online WorldsAway

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #49 on: Today at 09:42:57 AM »
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  • How would there be monetary profit in that?  I’d think the opposite!  Are Sedevacantists very wealthy compared with other traditional Catholics?  And generous? 
    If una cuм masses are mortally sinful and you just so happen to be the only non-una cuм chapel within a reasonable driving distance, then you have a monopoly on the faithful's checkbooks 
    John 15:19  If you had been of the world, the world would love its own: but because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #50 on: Today at 09:46:09 AM »
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  • If una cuм masses are mortally sinful and you just so happen to be the only non-una cuм chapel within a reasonable driving distance, then you have a monopoly on the faithful's checkbooks

    I don't find myself being quite that cynical, though I have heard this sentiment expressed by others.  I do believe that they are sincerely convinced about the matter at least to some extent, even if that other financial motive might blend in with it ... but they're also driven by what might be borderline bitter zeal, where it fills them with a certain amount of disgust to name Bergs and Pervost as among the "cultoribus fidei" in the Canon.  If I were a priest, I'd probably say "una cuм famulo tuo papa nostro" but then leave out the actual name, expressing the fact that I profess submission to the Pope ... just not sure who he is.  I was one of them for a while at Bishop Sanborn's seminary for a time (in Warren MI) ... so I know from the inside how they think.  I don't think they would adhere to the position JUST for the financial benefit.  For as many people as they might convince to not go somewhere else, they'd probably turn away twice as many due to this rigorous and dogmatic posture.

    Offline Everlast22

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #51 on: Today at 09:51:49 AM »
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  • I don't find myself being quite that cynical, though I have heard this sentiment expressed by others.  I do believe that they are sincerely convinced about the matter at least to some extent, even if that other financial motive might blend in with it ... but they're also driven by what might be borderline bitter zeal, where it fills them with a certain amount of disgust to name Bergs and Pervost as among the "cultoribus fidei" in the Canon.  If I were a priest, I'd probably say "una cuм famulo tuo papa nostro" but then leave out the actual name, expressing the fact that I profess submission to the Pope ... just not sure who he is.  I was one of them for a while at Bishop Sanborn's seminary for a time (in Warren MI) ... so I know from the inside how they think.  I don't think they would adhere to the position JUST for the financial benefit.  For as many people as they might convince to not go somewhere else, they'd probably turn away twice as many due to this rigorous and dogmatic posture.
    do you know of this site below? I personally know the guy who wrote this one particular article below. Just curious.



    The 'una cuм Mass': A crucial question for our time

    Offline JeanBaptistedeCouetus

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #52 on: Today at 10:04:25 AM »
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  • No, you can't just pick or choose which of his commands to obey because he's a material-only pope.

    What you can do is consider him a papa dubius where, as a result, for all intents and purposes he lacks authority (per all the theologians), but then "hedge your bets" a bit by obeying him where you can ... just in case you're wrong (Bishop Sanborn's condemnation of Opninionism, as he called it, was 100% erroneous).

    You need to at least have a papa dubius position in order to legitimately refuse submission and communion to the extent that Trads do.  Without at least a well founded doubt, the R&R position is schismatic and implicitly heretical.

    R&R needs to become D&R = "Doubt & Resist".  Doubt suffices for Resistance.  Recognition does not ... that makes you a schismatic.

    Newsflash:  Contrary to popular belief and R&R mythology, neither Archbishop Lefebvre, Bishop Williamson, nor Bishop Tissier were sedeplenists.  +Galaretta I know nothing about since I don't think I've seen 3 words either spoken or written by that man, who appears to be on perpetual siesta somewhere.

    Here's why ...

    Theologians generally hold the legitimacy of a Pope to be a DOGMATIC FACT.  That means it must be certain with the certainty of faith, i.e that you must be as certain that, say, Bergoglio is Pope as that God is Three Persons in One God.  If you aren't, then you're a sede-doubtist (a term I coined years ago here tongue-in-cheek), i.e. you hold that he's a papa dubius, which means that, for all intents and purposes, a papa nullus, and therefore he may be resisted.

    Now, as you should know, it is heretical not only to deny but even to doubt a dogma, and a dogmatic fact is in this same category.

    Archbishop Lefebvre, Bishop Williamson, and Bishop Tissier have all in fact said on multiple occasions, and in fact quite consistently, that it's POSSIBLE that these men have not been popes.  That means they are NOT sedeplenists, but sede-doubtists.  Sorry to bust the bubble of the R&R who hide behind their false caricature of +Lefebvre.

    In the early days, the explanation proferred by SSPX higher ups was that melior est conditio possidentis, which basically means that you have to give the office-holder the benefit of the doubt.  So that tacitly admits doubt.  Unfortunately, the maxim is misapplied, since the benefit goes AGAINST a doubtful pope, papa dubius papa nullus.  There is no "possession is nine tenths of the law" where it comes to papal legitimacy.  Why?  That's because if you can only be 95% certain that a certain man is the Pope, then if he defines a dogma, you can only be 95% certain that the dogma is true and guaranteed true.  95% certainty precludes certainty of faith, and therefore your acceptance of it as dogma.  But to a great extent, the SSPX have long admitted certain degrees of doubt about who these men were, following their founder.

    It's only in later legacy, unfortunately because +Lefebvre didn't sufficiently clarify the necessary distinctions or do it with sufficient emphasis, you have a generation later a bunch of dogmatic R&R types, who are in fact mired in a heretical and schismatic ecclesiology.

    R&R should be dumped in favor of the DOUBT & RESIST (D&R), which is actually a better description of +Lefebvre's position, and you obey what you can but only with the mindset of "since it does no harm, just in case I'm wrong ... why not."
    “Lest some nonetheless insist on misunderstanding the Archbishop's position, we enclose this month the text of an interim judgment of his upon the new Code, from a personal letter written last October. Notice, the Archbishop in no way says the pope is not pope, or has no authority to make a new Code, nor does he say that nothing in the Code is to be heeded. Disciplinary regulations can positively need updating, for instance on the consulting of superiors, transformed since the last Code in 1917 by the spread of the telephone. His Grace concludes however, that overall, this Code's promulgation is "a monstrous and scandalous thing.”

    —Bishop Williamson, Letters from the Rector - Volume 1: The Ridgefield Letters February 2, 1984


    Offline JeanBaptistedeCouetus

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #53 on: Today at 10:08:54 AM »
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  • “For the second time since 1976, the sedevacantist temptation haunted Archbishop Lefebvre; but he did not succuмb to it.” —Bishop Tissier, Marcel Lefebvre: The Biography, 2002

    &

    “That I have no hesitation regarding the legitimacy and validity of Your election, and consequently I cannot tolerate that the prayers prescribed by the Holy Church for Your Holiness be withheld from God. I have already had to act firmly and continue to do so regarding some seminarians and some priests who allowed themselves to be influenced by certain ecclesiastics outside the Society.”

    LETTER FROM MONSEIGNEUR LEFEBVRE
    TO JOHN PAUL II– March 8, 1980
    (cf. Itinéraires, August 1982, pp. 22-23)

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #54 on: Today at 10:29:02 AM »
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  • If una cuм masses are mortally sinful and you just so happen to be the only non-una cuм chapel within a reasonable driving distance, then you have a monopoly on the faithful's checkbooks
    May be true in certain locales, but there are also many Traditionals out of reasonable driving distance of any traditional Mass whatsoever. As n.o. dioceses are first eliminating Latin Masses and combining dioceses into one, the same with parishes and those remaining not having Masses every Sunday due to lack of priests, Catholics of all sorts increasingly find themselves in the same predicament.
    Your statement, also, is predicated upon most traditional Catholics having an una cuм traditional Mass, also, upon being able to drive what you call reasonable distances and upon having a car or the ability to move. Some have cars, but the expense of travel is too much. Others cannot physically undertake hours in a vehicle. Chances are, if you can’t afford to travel, affording to move is unlikely.

    These and similar factors are why my personal policy on finer points of belief that cannot be settled without a valid, Catholic, and good Pope, is “Don’t Ask; Don’t Tell.” If someone with authority, ie, the priest, questions me directly about my stance and cannot accept it, therefore does not accept me as being Catholic, I leave. If Susan or Chad from the committee or Mrs. Dee Mentia interrogates me, that means nothing. It’s different if there’s a priest who insists I confess to something as a mortal sin, when it is/was not, any sin at all, then I leave. I’m not interested in cults be they of false doctrine or personality. I do not hear Mass where I am obviously not wanted, why upset their apple cart?

    Offline JeanBaptistedeCouetus

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #55 on: Today at 10:57:24 AM »
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  • May be true in certain locales, but there are also many Traditionals out of reasonable driving distance of any traditional Mass whatsoever. As n.o. dioceses are first eliminating Latin Masses and combining dioceses into one, the same with parishes and those remaining not having Masses every Sunday due to lack of priests, Catholics of all sorts increasingly find themselves in the same predicament.
    Your statement, also, is predicated upon most traditional Catholics having an una cuм traditional Mass, also, upon being able to drive what you call reasonable distances and upon having a car or the ability to move. Some have cars, but the expense of travel is too much. Others cannot physically undertake hours in a vehicle. Chances are, if you can’t afford to travel, affording to move is unlikely.

    These and similar factors are why my personal policy on finer points of belief that cannot be settled without a valid, Catholic, and good Pope, is “Don’t Ask; Don’t Tell.” If someone with authority, ie, the priest, questions me directly about my stance and cannot accept it, therefore does not accept me as being Catholic, I leave. If Susan or Chad from the committee or Mrs. Dee Mentia interrogates me, that means nothing. It’s different if there’s a priest who insists I confess to something as a mortal sin, when it is/was not, any sin at all, then I leave. I’m not interested in cults be they of false doctrine or personality. I do not hear Mass where I am obviously not wanted, why upset their apple cart?
    “Hence the Society which was in 1983 maybe slow to warn
    Catholics against regularly exposing themselves to the
    presence or influence of these priests, now at any rate tells
    such Catholics that they must choose. If they really wish
    their children to be confirmed by the Archbishop, well and
    good, then they must show that they are not infected by what
    the Archbishop holds to be the doctrinal errors of these priests.
    Otherwise, not having the mind of his subjects, how can they
    claim any of the benefits of having him as their Superior?

    If on the other hand they seriously judge that the priests are
    right and the Archbishop or the Society is going wrong, so be it,
    but let them turn to the priests for confirmation, because one
    of them is quoted as saying that he would give it.

    If however they wish to have it both ways, or if they insist
    that they cannot judge or condemn, despite Our Lord’s own
    warning to beware of wolves in sheepskins (Matt. 7:15), then
    they must take the consequences of their refusal to distinguish
    between shepherd and wolf, and they must realize that they
    cannot be both insubordinate by following dissidents and
    subordinates who may claim confirmation.

    Of course the Society can always be deceived, as it was in May
    of 1984, but for its part, so far as in it lies, it will do what it
    can henceforth to ensure that those who claim its special
    benefits essentially have its mind, which is meant not to
    penalize but to protect the innocent.”

    —Bishop Williamson, #24
    May 1, 1985. Taken from-April 1983–a Doctrinal Split, LETTERS FROM THE RECTOR
    OF ST. THOMAS AQUINAS SEMINARY
    V O L U M E 1
    THE RIDGEFIELD LETTERS


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #56 on: Today at 11:12:49 AM »
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  • do you know of this site below? I personally know the guy who wrote this one particular article below. Just curious.



    The 'una cuм Mass': A crucial question for our time

    I know WM Review (and the gentleman who runs it), but I do not know the author of the article ... sounds like a young whippersnapper compared to this crusty old guy.  I was with Bishop Sanborn in the very early days in Warren MI, or, I should say, Father Sanborn, from before he had been consecrated a bishop.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #57 on: Today at 12:02:56 PM »
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  • Let's put it this way:

    Even if I were someday convinced that the See is vacant, I would nevertheless reject "sedevacantism" wholeheartedly. I would avoid Sedevacantist chapels for their sectarianism. I would reject the sedevacantist identity/movement, and adhere instead to the "plain vanilla" Traditional Movement. I would continue to treat the Pope question as a personal opinion, etc.

    I would continue to consider the same things to be important:

    Tridentine Mass
    Catholic Faith as it was taught, believed, and practiced before Vatican II
    Training of the priest, his attitude towards Vatican II and the new Conciliar religion
    Validity of his ordination (including the bishop who ordained him)

    Those are the only things the "sedevacantists" are doing right -- in other words, the Traditional Movement. They get no extra cred for their rejection of the recent popes. Because it has solved nothing, and done nothing positive for the Faithful or the Church.
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    Offline JeanBaptistedeCouetus

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    Re: The biggest reason I'm not Sede
    « Reply #58 on: Today at 03:04:47 PM »
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  • May be true in certain locales, but there are also many Traditionals out of reasonable driving distance of any traditional Mass whatsoever. As n.o. dioceses are first eliminating Latin Masses and combining dioceses into one, the same with parishes and those remaining not having Masses every Sunday due to lack of priests, Catholics of all sorts increasingly find themselves in the same predicament.
    Your statement, also, is predicated upon most traditional Catholics having an una cuм traditional Mass, also, upon being able to drive what you call reasonable distances and upon having a car or the ability to move. Some have cars, but the expense of travel is too much. Others cannot physically undertake hours in a vehicle. Chances are, if you can’t afford to travel, affording to move is unlikely.

    These and similar factors are why my personal policy on finer points of belief that cannot be settled without a valid, Catholic, and good Pope, is “Don’t Ask; Don’t Tell.” If someone with authority, ie, the priest, questions me directly about my stance and cannot accept it, therefore does not accept me as being Catholic, I leave. If Susan or Chad from the committee or Mrs. Dee Mentia interrogates me, that means nothing. It’s different if there’s a priest who insists I confess to something as a mortal sin, when it is/was not, any sin at all, then I leave. I’m not interested in cults be they of false doctrine or personality. I do not hear Mass where I am obviously not wanted, why upset their apple cart?
    “These courtroom arguments and the similar flow of equally misleading propaganda from Oyster Bay, show that Fr.Kelly and his colleagues and followers through failing to distinguish between the official Church, vine of Our Lord, and the Conciliar Church, gangrened with heresy, are at the very least in grave danger of schism. Now the danger of heresy inherent in the Novus Ordo Missae excuses Catholics from the obligation of attending it, and once they are aware of the danger, obliges them not to attend it. It follows that Catholics aware of this ever more real danger of schism in the Masses celebrated by Fr. Kelly and his colleagues are obliged not to attend them.” —Bishop Williamson, #6
    October 3, 1983
    Misleading Arguments, LETTERS FROM THE RECTOR
    OF ST. THOMAS AQUINAS SEMINARY
    V O L U M E 1
    THE RIDGEFIELD LETTERS