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Author Topic: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?  (Read 3189 times)

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Offline Bataar

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Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
« on: May 04, 2020, 12:44:12 PM »
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    • I'm pretty much a sedevacantist in that I don't believe the post conciliar popes are valid. That's about as far as I take it though. I still regularly attend a FSSP parish and go to a NO priest for confession sometimes. However, I was recently made aware of a potential problem and am looking for a way around it.

    For the full details, see this article: http://www.stjosephschurch.net/cekada.htm

    Pope Pius XII explicitly defined the form and matter for Holy Orders and the consecration of bishops. He declared that consecrations that did not follow the form were invalid. In 1968, Paul VI changed the form. It seems quite clear that the form is completely different than what is required for validity, which, if true, means that all bishops consecrated in this rite are invalid and therefore, any priests they have ordained are actually priests, including the FSSP priests at my church.

    We all know that if Pope Francis (or some other future pope) were to change the type of bread used for the Eucharist (yuca root in the Amazon for example), that it would not be a valid sacrament as the essential form has changed. Why would this case with the bishops be any different?
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #1 on: May 04, 2020, 12:54:02 PM »
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    • My answer: Not sure (because of possible defect in form).
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    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Bataar

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #2 on: May 04, 2020, 01:13:23 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on May 04, 2020, 12:54:02 PM
    My answer: Not sure (because of possible defect in form).
    I know, that's where I'm at. I've also heard that if a sacrament is doubtful, than it's not valid. One of the FSSP priests I spoke to about it simply brushed it off saying that Jesus wouldn't allow that to happen. Unfortunately, Jesus allows (not causes) lots of evil to happen so that argument doesn't really hold with me.
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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #3 on: May 04, 2020, 02:11:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bataar on May 04, 2020, 01:13:23 PM
    I've also heard that if a sacrament is doubtful, than it's not valid.

    If it's doubtful, one has to assume invalidity. (DH2101/Dz1151)
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    Offline Kazimierz

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #4 on: May 04, 2020, 02:30:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on May 04, 2020, 02:11:38 PM
    If it's doubtful, one has to assume invalidity. (DH2101/Dz1151)
    Thou didst beat me to the gate. :cowboy:
    Once I learnt about the doubtfulness - and thus likely invalidity - of NO episcopal consecrations, it removed any obstacle for me to continued attendance at FSSP or other such indultorous liturgical functions.
    As for that said priest who said Jesus wouldnt let that happen...it shows the serious deficiency of his Catholic education/formation.
    I have heard from more than one FSSP seminarian that there is still a hermeneutic of continuity between the preV2 and post V2 church.
    I wonder what kind of Orwellian theological gymnastics must be absorbed into believing such a reality. It shows if anything the deep infection of Kantian subjectivist thinking with so called but obviously non Traditional formation that is being taught.
    Thus the eventual death of the SS Pixies looms, as has been noted in other CI threads. Nervous Ohno desacralizing contamination in the event of new episcopal ordinations for the SS Pixies spells their doom.
    Thus we must pray for more true and valid bishops to be consecrated by the Resistance.
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    Offline MiserereMei

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #5 on: May 04, 2020, 02:40:53 PM »
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    • Quote from: Struthio on May 04, 2020, 02:11:38 PM
    If it's doubtful, one has to assume invalidity. (DH2101/Dz1151)
    That's correct. That is why Mgr. Lefebvre used to conduct investigations and conditionally re-ordain priests.
     Personally this issue is the one that makes me more troubled regarding  SSPX contacts with local NO bishops and priests. It looks like they are assuming they are all valid.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #6 on: May 04, 2020, 02:47:26 PM »
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    • I do not believe with certainty of faith that Novus Ordo priest and bishops are valid. I also do not believe with certainty of faith that they are all not priests. My present personal solution is to go to SSPX ordained priests. If one day there is none available, and God only provides me with a Novus Ordo ordained traditionalist priest, I'll go with him and let God sort it out. That has not happened yet in my 25 years. God has always provided for me.
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    Offline Mr G

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #7 on: May 04, 2020, 03:03:47 PM »
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    • It seems that the non-sedevacantist Traditional priests and faithful that DO doubt the validly of the new rite of episcopal consecration usually do not carry that doubt over to the Popes that were consecrated bishop in the new rite. I would think that if one doubts that Novus Ordor bishops are really bishops, then one should doubt if Pope consecrated in the new rite are really popes.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #8 on: May 04, 2020, 03:12:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mr G on May 04, 2020, 03:03:47 PM
    It seems that the non-sedevacantist Traditional priests and faithful that DO doubt the validly of the new rite of episcopal consecration usually do not carry that doubt over to the Popes that were consecrated bishop in the new rite. I would think that if one doubts that Novus Ordor bishops are really bishops, then one should doubt if Pope consecrated in the new rite are really popes.
    Which is why this wasnt a question before Ratzinger got elected.
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    Offline Arnaldo

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #9 on: May 04, 2020, 04:11:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bataar on May 04, 2020, 12:44:12 PM
    Pope Pius XII explicitly defined the form and matter for Holy Orders and the consecration of bishops. He declared that consecrations that did not follow the form were invalid. In 1968, Paul VI changed the form. It seems quite clear that the form is completely different than what is required for validity, which, if true, means that all bishops consecrated in this rite are invalid and therefore, any priests they have ordained are actually priests, including the FSSP priests at my church.

    It's worse than that. The Council of Florence explicitly defined the form and matter for Holy Orders and it is completely different than what Pius XII defined.  Read it for yourself.

    "The sixth sacrament is that of order, the matter of which is that through whose transmission the order is conferred: just as the priesthood is transmitted through the offering of the chalice with wine and of the paten with bread; the diaconate, however, by the giving of the book of the Gospels; but the subdiaconate by the giving of the empty chalice with the empty paten superimposed; and similarly with regard to the others by allotment of things pertaining to their ministry. The form of such priesthood is: Accipe potestatem offerendi sacrificium in ecclesia pro vivis et mortuis, in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti. And thus with regard to the forms of the other orders, as is contained extensively in the Roman pontifical. The ordinary minister of this sacrament is the bishop. The effect is increase of grace, so that the one ordained be a worthy minister." (Council of Florence)

    Now read what Pius XII defined:

    "In the Ordination to the Priesthood, the matter is the first imposition off hands of the Bishop which is done in silence, but not the continuation of the same imposition through the extension of the right hand, nor the last imposition to which are attached the words: 'Accipe Spiritum Sanctum: quorum remiseris peccata, etc.' And the form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:

    'Da, quaesumus, omnipotens Pater, in hunc famulum tuum Presbyterii dignitatem; innova in visceribus eius spiritum sanctitatis, ut acceptum a Te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineat censuramque morum exemplo suae conversationis insinuet.' [Grant, we beseech Thee, Almighty Father, invest this Thy servant with the dignity of the Priesthood; do Thou renew in his heart the spirit of holiness, so that he may persevere in this office, which is next to ours in dignity, since he has received it from Thee, O God. May the example of his life lead others to moral uprightness.]"

    Completely different.
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #10 on: May 04, 2020, 04:46:29 PM »
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    • All New Order are Marxist!  All New Order salute the government/state.  All New Order serve the federal gov't.  All New Order taking on Catholic Charities are supporting abortion, democrats anything that is of their "club" marxist.  They have been this way in the USA for what, over 70 years!  Just look up when Catholic charities was born.

    I read Federal Grants for the state of AZ in 1987-95.  If you have never read Federal Grants, you are in for a great shock!  That is how I was able to find/read docuмents that proved the Dioceses was the entity that brought SEX ED into the catholic schools, into a State with laws that said, NO SEX ED.  Proved!!  

    Don't even think that some dioceses are good and other bad.  NO they are all the same.  Those who appear good, then they are doing a fantastic job to fool you!  


    AZ, Bishop Olmstead is a perfect example and I say, he is probably the most notorious.  The keener they are the more dangerous they are.

    We had Kenneth Walker of FSSP murdered.  News media never said, that he was shot 11 times.  That news came out when his mother had her sons body autopsied.

    And the other Terra was beaten so bad, he should have died of his injuries.

    So, ALL New Order are of the order of Satan!
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #11 on: May 04, 2020, 04:51:08 PM »
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    • Beware of Pro-life groups, such as HLI Human Life international, Judy Brown and such.  IF you think they are of the New Order, they are not pro-life.  If they speak up for bishops, claiming they are pro-life, think again!  No Way!

    Priests for Life, NO WAY!  They are New Order, in the club of marxists.  Groups that support New Order. Beware.  Lifesite.news I caught saying Bishop Olmsted was a Wonderful pro-life bishop.  Don't you bet on it!  No Way!  
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    Offline MiserereMei

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #12 on: May 04, 2020, 05:04:12 PM »
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    • Quote from: Arnaldo on May 04, 2020, 04:11:55 PM
    It's worse than that. The Council of Florence explicitly defined the form and matter for Holy Orders and it is completely different than what Pius XII defined.  Read it for yourself.

    "The sixth sacrament is that of order, the matter of which is that through whose transmission the order is conferred: just as the priesthood is transmitted through the offering of the chalice with wine and of the paten with bread; the diaconate, however, by the giving of the book of the Gospels; but the subdiaconate by the giving of the empty chalice with the empty paten superimposed; and similarly with regard to the others by allotment of things pertaining to their ministry. The form of such priesthood is: Accipe potestatem offerendi sacrificium in ecclesia pro vivis et mortuis, in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti. And thus with regard to the forms of the other orders, as is contained extensively in the Roman pontifical. The ordinary minister of this sacrament is the bishop. The effect is increase of grace, so that the one ordained be a worthy minister." (Council of Florence)

    Now read what Pius XII defined:

    "In the Ordination to the Priesthood, the matter is the first imposition off hands of the Bishop which is done in silence, but not the continuation of the same imposition through the extension of the right hand, nor the last imposition to which are attached the words: 'Accipe Spiritum Sanctum: quorum remiseris peccata, etc.' And the form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:

    'Da, quaesumus, omnipotens Pater, in hunc famulum tuum Presbyterii dignitatem; innova in visceribus eius spiritum sanctitatis, ut acceptum a Te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineat censuramque morum exemplo suae conversationis insinuet.' [Grant, we beseech Thee, Almighty Father, invest this Thy servant with the dignity of the Priesthood; do Thou renew in his heart the spirit of holiness, so that he may persevere in this office, which is next to ours in dignity, since he has received it from Thee, O God. May the example of his life lead others to moral uprightness.]"

    Completely different.
    The meaning and intention in the sacramental forms from that council and fron Pius XII is clear and the same in substance. The new form is ambiguous.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #13 on: May 04, 2020, 05:30:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Arnaldo on May 04, 2020, 04:11:55 PM
    It's worse than that. The Council of Florence explicitly defined the form and matter for Holy Orders and it is completely different than what Pius XII defined.  Read it for yourself.

    "The sixth sacrament is that of order, the matter of which is that through whose transmission the order is conferred: just as the priesthood is transmitted through the offering of the chalice with wine and of the paten with bread; the diaconate, however, by the giving of the book of the Gospels; but the subdiaconate by the giving of the empty chalice with the empty paten superimposed; and similarly with regard to the others by allotment of things pertaining to their ministry. The form of such priesthood is: Accipe potestatem offerendi sacrificium in ecclesia pro vivis et mortuis, in nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti. And thus with regard to the forms of the other orders, as is contained extensively in the Roman pontifical. The ordinary minister of this sacrament is the bishop. The effect is increase of grace, so that the one ordained be a worthy minister." (Council of Florence)

    Now read what Pius XII defined:

    "In the Ordination to the Priesthood, the matter is the first imposition off hands of the Bishop which is done in silence, but not the continuation of the same imposition through the extension of the right hand, nor the last imposition to which are attached the words: 'Accipe Spiritum Sanctum: quorum remiseris peccata, etc.' And the form consists of the words of the “Preface,” of which the following are essential and therefore required for validity:

    'Da, quaesumus, omnipotens Pater, in hunc famulum tuum Presbyterii dignitatem; innova in visceribus eius spiritum sanctitatis, ut acceptum a Te, Deus, secundi meriti munus obtineat censuramque morum exemplo suae conversationis insinuet.' [Grant, we beseech Thee, Almighty Father, invest this Thy servant with the dignity of the Priesthood; do Thou renew in his heart the spirit of holiness, so that he may persevere in this office, which is next to ours in dignity, since he has received it from Thee, O God. May the example of his life lead others to moral uprightness.]"

    Completely different.

    Pius XII himself provides the answer (and what is said of the matter is likewise applicable to the form):

    “It follows that, even according to the mind of the Council of Florence itself, the "traditio instrumentorum" is not required for the substance and validity of this Sacrament by the will of Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself. If it was at one time necessary even for validity by the will and command of the Church, every one knows that the Church has the power to change and abrogate what she herself has established.” (See here, n. 3: papalencyclicals.net/Pius12/P12SACRAO.HTM 6 )
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    Offline Arnaldo

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #14 on: May 04, 2020, 05:32:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: MiserereMei on May 04, 2020, 05:04:12 PM
    The meaning and intention in the sacramental forms from that council and fron Pius XII is clear and the same in substance. The new form is ambiguous.
    Form according to Florence: "Receive the power to offer the sacrifice in the Church for the living and the dead, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

    Matter according to Florence: "the priesthood is transmitted through the offering of the chalice with wine and of the paten with bread."
     
    Form according to Pius XII:  "Grant, we beseech Thee, Almighty Father, invest this Thy servant with the dignity of the Priesthood; do Thou renew in his heart the spirit of holiness, so that he may persevere in this office, which is next to ours in dignity, since he has received it from Thee, O God. May the example of his life lead others to moral uprightness."
      
    Matter according to Pius XII: "In the Ordination to the Priesthood, the matter is the first imposition off hands."
     
    How is that the same substance?
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