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Author Topic: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?  (Read 3174 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
« Reply #45 on: May 05, 2020, 02:24:58 PM »
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    • Furthermore, I call into question the application of Billot's rationale to the post-V2 church.  Like the Arians of their day, the V2 churchmen and laity are heretics (all material, some knowingly formal) and as such, accept the new rites as legitimate, because of their foundational error of accepting V2 as orthodox.  Ergo, their "universal acceptance" of a similarly-heretical associate in no way confirms legitimacy, anymore than if 1,000,000 protestants all "interpret" that John 6's Eucharist is symbolic, then group-think makes it so.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #46 on: May 05, 2020, 02:32:33 PM »
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    #3.  Both the Ecclesia Dei docuмent of the 80s and +Benedict's "motu" of 2007 specifically mention that attendance at an "under Rome" latin mass is acceptance of the new mass.  It's the law and it's public.  Your ignorance of this fact doesn't change the reality.
    In addition, the fact that EVERY SINGLE so-called "traditional" order "under new-rome" has openly and publically accepted V2 as orthodox and the new mass/rites as valid.  Go read the FSSP's charter docuмent, which created their order.  It's all there.
    .
    Finally, every single "priest" who says the latin mass "under new-rome" also says (or openly accepts) the new mass.  Most of them say the new mass every sunday, either directly before or after the latin rite.  It is impossible to hide from the fact that new-rome promotes a religious pan-worship, where good is allowed as long as one accepts the dubious, lukewarm and evil. 
    .
    It is impossible for anyone to attend a new-rome latin mass without accepting the new mass and V2, implicitly...and most do so explicitly. 
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    Offline Nishant Xavier

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #47 on: May 05, 2020, 02:50:15 PM »
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    • It's a mortal sin to doubt a dogmatic fact, once the basis for it being a dogmatic fact has been sufficiently explained to somebody. Ergo, you sin mortally if you doubt the Pope's election was valid, after you know the doctrine, and you sin mortally if you continue to doubt the validity of the rite in which you know a certainly elected Pontiff was consecrated. Nothing is more serious than mortal sin. But if you don't care for your own salvation, continue to doubt what is now a clear mortal sin to continue to doubt. The Truth will set you free.

    https://fsspx.org/en/protocol-agreement-may-5-1988

    I. TEXT OF THE DOCTRINAL DECLARATION
    I, Marcel Lefebvre, Archbishop-Bishop Emeritus of Tulle, as well as the members of the Society of St. Pius X founded by me:
     
    • Promise always to be faithful to the Catholic Church and the Roman Pontiff, its Supreme Pastor, Vicar of Christ, Successor of Blessed Peter in his primacy as head of the body of bishops.
       
    • We declare our acceptance of the doctrine contained in §25 of the Dogmatic Constitution Lumen gentium of Vatican Council II on the ecclesiastical Magisterium and the adherence which is due to it.
       
    • Regarding certain points taught by Vatican Council II or concerning later reforms of the liturgy and law, and which do not appear to us easily reconcilable with Tradition, we pledge that we will have a positive attitude of study and communication with the Apostolic See, avoiding all polemics.
       
    • Moreover, we declare that we recognize the validity of the Sacrifice of the Mass and the Sacraments celebrated with the intention of doing what the Church does, and according to the rites indicated in the typical editions of the Roman Missal and the Rituals of the Sacraments promulgated by Popes Paul VI and John Paul II.
       
    • Finally, we promise to respect the common discipline of the Church and the ecclesiastical laws, especially those contained in the Code of Canon Law promulgated by Pope John Paul II, without prejudice to the special discipline granted to the Society by particular law.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #48 on: May 05, 2020, 02:58:33 PM »
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    •  :facepalm:  Oh, Xavier...you're just not worth the time...
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #49 on: May 05, 2020, 04:01:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: XavierSem on May 05, 2020, 02:50:15 PM
    It's a mortal sin to doubt a dogmatic fact ...

    +Lefebvre, +Williamson, and +Tissier have all publicly doubted the legitimacy of the Vatican II papal claimants.  So please write +Williamson and +Tissier to correct their mortal sin.

    Actually, alas, it's more than just mortal sin to doubt dogmatic fact.  It's actually heresy.  Therefore, let us pray for the conversion of +Williamson and +Tissier to the Catholic faith.  Sadly, it's too late for +Lefebvre; he died outside the Church.

    :incense:

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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #50 on: May 05, 2020, 04:03:18 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on May 05, 2020, 02:58:33 PM
    :facepalm:  Oh, Xavier...you're just not worth the time...

    Pay no attention to the schismatic, who has zero theological justification for not being able to join a group in full communion with the Church (such as FSSP).
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #51 on: May 05, 2020, 04:47:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on May 05, 2020, 04:01:34 PM
    +Lefebvre, +Williamson, and +Tissier have all publicly doubted the legitimacy of the Vatican II papal claimants.  So please write +Williamson and +Tissier to correct their mortal sin.

    Actually, alas, it's more than just mortal sin to doubt dogmatic fact.  It's actually heresy.  Therefore, let us pray for the conversion of +Williamson and +Tissier to the Catholic faith.  Sadly, it's too late for +Lefebvre; he died outside the Church.

    :incense:
    Even if it is a dogmatic fact wouldn’t they have to know that and still deny it for it to be a mortal sin? 
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #52 on: May 05, 2020, 05:22:28 PM »
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    • Maybe the question should be, is the Novus Ordo giving valid sacraments?  Answer is NO.  We know that.

    So, there is more than one way to-skin-a-cat.

    I don't care if any of the Novus Ordo claim valid orders.  Point  is there are no sacraments, no grace.  Nothing, Nil!

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    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #53 on: May 05, 2020, 07:00:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on May 05, 2020, 05:22:28 PM
    Maybe the question should be, is the Novus Ordo giving valid sacraments?  Answer is NO.  We know that.

    So, there is more than one way to-skin-a-cat.

    I don't care if any of the Novus Ordo claim valid orders.  Point  is there are no sacraments, no grace.  Nothing, Nil!

    Orders are a sacrament.

    Bergoglio isn't even a priest.
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    Offline songbird

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #54 on: May 05, 2020, 11:09:47 PM »
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    • True, the pope is not even a priest.

    I don't understand why some people think the New Order has something.  There is nothing.
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    Offline Bataar

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #55 on: May 11, 2020, 10:16:54 AM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on May 04, 2020, 04:46:29 PM
    All New Order are Marxist!  All New Order salute the government/state.  All New Order serve the federal gov't.  All New Order taking on Catholic Charities are supporting abortion, democrats anything that is of their "club" marxist.  They have been this way in the USA for what, over 70 years!  Just look up when Catholic charities was born.

    I read Federal Grants for the state of AZ in 1987-95.  If you have never read Federal Grants, you are in for a great shock!  That is how I was able to find/read docuмents that proved the Dioceses was the entity that brought SEX ED into the catholic schools, into a State with laws that said, NO SEX ED.  Proved!!  

    Don't even think that some dioceses are good and other bad.  NO they are all the same.  Those who appear good, then they are doing a fantastic job to fool you!  


    AZ, Bishop Olmstead is a perfect example and I say, he is probably the most notorious.  The keener they are the more dangerous they are.

    We had Kenneth Walker of FSSP murdered.  News media never said, that he was shot 11 times.  That news came out when his mother had her sons body autopsied.

    And the other Terra was beaten so bad, he should have died of his injuries.

    So, ALL New Order are of the order of Satan!
    What does Bishop Olmstead have to do with what happened with Fr. Walker and Fr. Terra?
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #56 on: May 23, 2020, 09:24:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: songbird on May 05, 2020, 05:22:28 PM
    Maybe the question should be, is the Novus Ordo giving valid sacraments?  Answer is NO.  We know that.

    So, there is more than one way to-skin-a-cat.

    I don't care if any of the Novus Ordo claim valid orders.  Point  is there are no sacraments, no grace.  Nothing, Nil!
    Well leaving aside potential *Novus Ordo* legitimacy, any validly ordained priest can hear the TLM, and I've never heard of any doubt regarding Novus Ordo rites of *confession*
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    Offline Bellato

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #57 on: May 23, 2020, 11:34:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Bataar on May 04, 2020, 12:44:12 PM
    I'm pretty much a sedevacantist in that I don't believe the post conciliar popes are valid. That's about as far as I take it though. I still regularly attend a FSSP parish and go to a NO priest for confession sometimes. However, I was recently made aware of a potential problem and am looking for a way around it.

    For the full details, see this article: http://www.stjosephschurch.net/cekada.htm

    Pope Pius XII explicitly defined the form and matter for Holy Orders and the consecration of bishops. He declared that consecrations that did not follow the form were invalid. In 1968, Paul VI changed the form. It seems quite clear that the form is completely different than what is required for validity, which, if true, means that all bishops consecrated in this rite are invalid and therefore, any priests they have ordained are actually priests, including the FSSP priests at my church.

    We all know that if Pope Francis (or some other future pope) were to change the type of bread used for the Eucharist (yuca root in the Amazon for example), that it would not be a valid sacrament as the essential form has changed. Why would this case with the bishops be any different?
    He did change the form, and the surrounding rite outside of the form does not make it clear enough to support the Catholic meaning of what the form must mean, therefore, I believe Catholics should avoid bishops consecrated with this rite, and avoid priests ordained by such bishops, until a certain Pope rules on the matter.  

    For valid sacraments, there are the SSPX bishops, Resistance bishops, Eastern rite bishops, and some sedevacantist bishops.  
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #58 on: May 23, 2020, 11:41:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on May 23, 2020, 09:24:29 AM
    Well leaving aside potential *Novus Ordo* legitimacy, any validly ordained priest can hear the TLM, and I've never heard of any doubt regarding Novus Ordo rites of *confession*
    Valid confession depends on the validity of the priest's orders.  So, no, confession is not valid in the NO unless by some rare chance you get a hold of a very old, perhaps retired, priest.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Are Novus Ordo bishops valid?
    « Reply #59 on: May 23, 2020, 04:24:13 PM »
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    I've never heard of any doubt regarding Novus Ordo rites of *confession*
    I wouldn’t call it a doubt but straight-up invalidity.  Plenty of first-hand stories I’ve heard where new-priests “absolved” sins using invalid words:
    1.  “The Church absolves you...”
    2.  “Christ absolves you...”
    3.  “God forgives you...”
    .
    All of these are straight invalid.  Better watch out what they say!
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