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Author Topic: Archbishop Viganò calls for arrest of Bergolio and Cardinal Fernández  (Read 2447 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Archbishop Viganò calls for arrest of Bergolio and Cardinal Fernández
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2024, 04:21:50 PM »
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  • I don't care WHY Jorge is not the pope (or Ratzinger or Wojtyla).  I only know that (barring some unlikely scenario where he may be blackmailed, and therefore not acting freely), Jorge isn't and cannot be the Pope, due to the indefectibility of the Church and the Holy Spirit's protection over the Magisterium, the Mass, Canon Law, and canonizations.  I don't spin a lot of cycles on understanding the why or the how ... which will become clear some day, debating the "5 Opinions", Canon Law, cuм ex, etc.

    These debates about the "5 Opinions" relate to PERSONAL heresy, the heresy of a papal claimant as a private person.  None of them admits the possibility that a legitimate Pope could teach heresy to the Universal Church, promulgate a Protestantized bastard Rite of Mass that displeases God and harms souls, produce myriad bogus canonizations, etc.

    If Vatican II, the subsequent Conciliar Magisterium, and the NOM had never happened and Bergoglio was spouting heresies on the papal plane or in interviews with Scalfari, it would be THAT type of scenario that's being discussed here.  Would he ipso facto cease to be Pope, or would he require admonitions, etc.  In any case, it wouldn't be my problem, since I would leave the Church on account of Jorge's personal ramblings ... but would leave it to the Cardinals and other Church authorities to deal with him.  If I have left the Conciliar Church and refused submission to and communion with the V2 "hierarchy", it's because I have made the determination that it is not the Catholic Church, and that I do not hear the "Voice of the Shepherd" in Bergoglio's public/official teaching, and that I have determined that the Conciliar Church lacks the marks or notes of the Catholic Church, making it unrecognizable as such.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò calls for arrest of Bergolio and Cardinal Fernández
    « Reply #16 on: January 17, 2024, 04:31:31 PM »
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  • I don't care WHY Jorge is not the pope (or Ratzinger or Wojtyla).  I only know that (barring some unlikely scenario where he may be blackmailed, and therefore not acting freely), Jorge isn't and cannot be the Pope, due to the indefectibility of the Church and the Holy Spirit's protection over the Magisterium, the Mass, Canon Law, and canonizations.  I don't spin a lot of cycles on understanding the why or the how ... which will become clear some day, debating the "5 Opinions", Canon Law, cuм ex, etc.

    These debates about the "5 Opinions" relate to PERSONAL heresy, the heresy of a papal claimant as a private person.  None of them admits the possibility that a legitimate Pope could teach heresy to the Universal Church, promulgate a Protestantized bastard Rite of Mass that displeases God and harms souls, produce myriad bogus canonizations, etc.

    Why would being blackmailed, for example, and therefore not acting freely not negatively compromise the indefectibility of the Church?


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò calls for arrest of Bergolio and Cardinal Fernández
    « Reply #17 on: January 17, 2024, 04:43:32 PM »
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  • May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò calls for arrest of Bergolio and Cardinal Fernández
    « Reply #18 on: January 17, 2024, 04:54:53 PM »
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  • Angelus, this is just plain wrong.  What the docuмent (UDG) says is that the funeral rites of A deceased pope should be celebrated before the Conclave begins.  As I pointed out, you misread it due to the fact that Latin has no article.

    This is absurd and effectively precludes vacancy by resignation unless the pope dies first anyway and is given a burial.  That's clearly not the intent of the docuмent, which explicitly states that the office could be vacated either by resignation or death.

    Why don't you stick to arguments from, oh, the St. Gallen Mafia conspiracy, or the munus/ministerium-nonresignation argument, or vitium consensus, etc.?  There's no other Bennyvacantist out there promoting this fallacious line of argument.

    UDG 49 (including the minor updates from Normas nonullas)

    Quote
    No. 49. "When the funeral rites for the deceased Pope have been celebrated according to the prescribed ritual, and everything necessary for the regular functioning of the election has been prepared, on the day appointed in accordance with the provisions of No. 37 of the present Constitution for the opening of the Conclave, the Cardinal electors shall meet in the Basilica of Saint Peter's in the Vatican, or elsewhere, should circuмstances warrant it, in order to take part in a solemn Eucharistic celebration with the Votive Mass Pro Eligendo Papa. This celebration should preferably take place at a suitable hour in the morning, so that in the afternoon the prescriptions of the following Numbers of this Constitution can be carried out.

    Do you think they just forgot to put in the option for "in case of a papal resignation" in that section authorizing "The Beginning of the Election?"

    Here are some stats regarding the references to the "death," "funeral," and "burial" of the Pope in UDG.

    https://www.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_constitutions/docuмents/hf_jp-ii_apc_22021996_universi-dominici-gregis.html


    NOTES

    1. The word "death" referring to the Pope, will be found 18 times, in the following locations: UDG No. 3; UDG No. 13(b); UDG No. 13(e); UDG No. 14; UDG No. 15; UDG No. 17 (4 mentions); UDG No. 19 (2 mentions); UDG No. 25 (2 mentions); UDG No. 27; UDG No. 30 (2 mentions); UDG No. 33; UDG No. 84. Please note, in the Apostolic Letter Normas Nonullas, Benedict XVI removed the mention of the "death of the Pope" from No. 49 of UDG, which eliminated an ambiguity in the text. The new version of UDG No. 49, along with the new version of No. 37 changed in the same docuмent, states unequivocally that ONLY AFTER "the funeral rites for the deceased Pope have been celebrated" can a new papal election proceed.

    2. The word "funeral," referring to the Pope, will be found 5 times, in the following locations: UDG No. 11; UDG No. 13(b); UDG No. 27; UDG No. 49; UDG No. 84

    3. The word "burial," referring to the Pope, will be found, 6 times, in the following locations: UDG No. 13(b); UDG No. 17 (2 mentions); UDG No. 28 (2 mentions); UDG No. 31.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò calls for arrest of Bergolio and Cardinal Fernández
    « Reply #19 on: January 17, 2024, 05:00:29 PM »
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  • Dimond Brothers have made a 60-90 minute video regarding all the heresies of Ratzinger.  Father Kramer, for example, uses Bergoglio's rejection of the dogma (from Florence) that the Old Covenant had been abrogated as evidence for manifest heresy ... except that Ratzinger and Wojtyla both also denied the same dogma (I provided the evidence) ... in addition to many others.

    The sin of "communicatio in sacris" and the sin of heresy are completely different. The former is a sin against Charity. The latter is a sin against the Faith. One doesn't lose ecclesiastical office automatically for the sin of "communicatio in sacris." But one does lose ecclesiastical office automatically for the sin of heresy.

    Please provide the dogma that was publicly denied. I am open to correction on this. But CiS doesn't do it.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò calls for arrest of Bergolio and Cardinal Fernández
    « Reply #20 on: January 17, 2024, 05:38:56 PM »
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  • The sin of "communicatio in sacris" and the sin of heresy are completely different. The former is a sin against Charity. The latter is a sin against the Faith. One doesn't lose ecclesiastical office automatically for the sin of "communicatio in sacris." But one does lose ecclesiastical office automatically for the sin of heresy.

    Please provide the dogma that was publicly denied. I am open to correction on this. But CiS doesn't do it.

    What in the world are you babbling about?  There was no mention of communication in sacris in my post, but the heretical denial of the dogma that the Old Covenant has been abrogated, which Father Kramer used as a charge of manifest heresy on the part of Bergolgio, but which both Ratzinger and Wojtyla also held.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò calls for arrest of Bergolio and Cardinal Fernández
    « Reply #21 on: January 17, 2024, 05:39:41 PM »
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  • Why would being blackmailed, for example, and therefore not acting freely not negatively compromise the indefectibility of the Church?

    Because the individual's actions would not be free human acts and would therefore be null and void.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò calls for arrest of Bergolio and Cardinal Fernández
    « Reply #22 on: January 17, 2024, 05:40:29 PM »
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  • UDG 49 (including the minor updates from Normas nonullas)

    Do you think they just forgot to put in the option for "in case of a papal resignation" in that section authorizing "The Beginning of the Election?"

    Here are some stats regarding the references to the "death," "funeral," and "burial" of the Pope in UDG.

    Very bluntly, this is utterly idiotic, and you should pull that website, because it's an embarrassment.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò calls for arrest of Bergolio and Cardinal Fernández
    « Reply #23 on: January 17, 2024, 06:04:14 PM »
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  • Quote
    Do you think they just forgot to put in the option for "in case of a papal resignation" in that section
    :facepalm:  Legal docuмents are meant to be read AS A WHOLE.  They are written in sections for a reason, because different sections tie together, and must be applied TOGETHER.  


    If legal docuмents were written in the way you are wrongly reading them (expecting to find every single detail laid out in each section), then these docuмents would be 1,000s of pages long.  That's neither practical nor smart.

    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò calls for arrest of Bergolio and Cardinal Fernández
    « Reply #24 on: January 17, 2024, 06:28:41 PM »
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  • Why would being blackmailed, for example, and therefore not acting freely not negatively compromise the indefectibility of the Church?
    .

    Of course it would. If you say that a pope's public teachings and magisterial acts can be invalid due to a secret blackmail, this calls into question all the teaching of the Church. Anyone could say that Pope Pius IV, for example, was being blackmailed, and therefore we don't have to accept the Council of Trent.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò calls for arrest of Bergolio and Cardinal Fernández
    « Reply #25 on: January 17, 2024, 08:20:47 PM »
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  • Because the individual's actions would not be free human acts and would therefore be null and void.

    Do you apply this somehow in your defence of Cardinal Siri being pope?


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò calls for arrest of Bergolio and Cardinal Fernández
    « Reply #26 on: January 17, 2024, 09:06:43 PM »
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  • What in the world are you babbling about?  There was no mention of communication in sacris in my post, but the heretical denial of the dogma that the Old Covenant has been abrogated, which Father Kramer used as a charge of manifest heresy on the part of Bergolgio, but which both Ratzinger and Wojtyla also held.
    For the record, Fr. Kramer called Bergoglio's statement heresy and what JPII/BXVI said not heresy:

    Quote
    Bergoglio's assertion is worse than the Wotyta/Ratzinger error: Bergoglio expressly stated that the Jєωιѕн covenant (i.e. the Sinai Covenant) was never revoked. That assertion is an unmistakable indicium of formal heresy. The statements on this point by Wotyta and Ratzinger are not properly assertions that explicitly, directly, and immediately deny or contradict the dogma of the revocation
    of the Old Covenant.

    https://ecclesiamilitans.com/2023/08/18/rewind-jorge-bergoglio-on-the-Jєωιѕн-covenant-fr-paul-kramer/

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò calls for arrest of Bergolio and Cardinal Fernández
    « Reply #27 on: January 18, 2024, 06:55:49 AM »
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  • For the record, Fr. Kramer called Bergoglio's statement heresy and what JPII/BXVI said not heresy:

    https://ecclesiamilitans.com/2023/08/18/rewind-jorge-bergoglio-on-the-Jєωιѕн-covenant-fr-paul-kramer/

    Yes.  I pointed this out to Ladislaus in the past, but he keeps singing the same old tune.

    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Archbishop Viganò calls for arrest of Bergolio and Cardinal Fernández
    « Reply #29 on: January 18, 2024, 10:24:30 AM »
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  • For the record, Fr. Kramer called Bergoglio's statement heresy and what JPII/BXVI said not heresy:

    https://ecclesiamilitans.com/2023/08/18/rewind-jorge-bergoglio-on-the-Jєωιѕн-covenant-fr-paul-kramer/

    Exactly.  It's absurd contradiction that I've pointed out.  It's self-serving because he wants Ratzinger to have been a pope.