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Offline Lover of Truth

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Archbishop Thuc Letter
« on: November 09, 2015, 09:13:57 AM »
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  • http://www.cmri.org/thucletter.html

    How does the Catholic Church appear today as we look at it? In Rome, John Paul II reigns as “Pope,” surrounded by the body of Cardinals and of many bishops and prelates. Outside of Rome, the Catholic Church seems to be flourishing, along with its bishops and priests. The number of Catholics is great. Daily the Mass is celebrated in so many churches, and on Sundays the churches are full of many faithful who come to hear the Mass and receive Holy Communion.

    But in the sight of God, how does today’s Church appear? Are the Masses — both the daily ones and those at which people assist on Sundays — pleasing to God? By no means, because that Mass is the same for Catholics as it is for Protestants — therefore it is displeasing to God and invalid. The only Mass that pleases God is the Mass of St. Pius V, which is offered by few priests and bishops, among whom I count myself.

    Therefore, to the extent that I can, I will open seminaries for educating candidates for that priesthood which is pleasing to God.

    Besides this “Mass,” which does not please God, there are many other things that God rejects: for example, changes in the ordination of priests, the consecration of bishops, and in the sacraments of Confirmation and of Extreme Unction.

    Moreover, the “priests” now hold to:
        1) modernism;
        2) false ecumenism
        3) the adoration [or cult] of man;
        4) the freedom to embrace any religion whatsoever;
        5) the unwillingness to condemn heresies and to expel the heretics.

    Therefore, in so far as I am a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church, I judge that the Chair of the Roman Catholic Church is vacant; and it behooves me, as bishop, to do all that is needed so that the Roman Catholic Church will endure in its mission for the salvation of souls.

    February 25, 1982
    Munich
    +Peter Martin Ngo-dinh-Thuc
    Archbishop
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Archbishop Thuc Letter
    « Reply #1 on: November 09, 2015, 10:04:59 AM »
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  • Quote from: Bishop Thuc


    The only Mass that pleases God is the Mass of St. Pius V



    I guess he forgot about the other dozen or so Catholic rites of Mass, at least 9 of these being very different and distinct from the Latin rite codified by St. Pius V.

    To say that those other rites of approved Catholic Mass are not pleasing to God is heresy.
    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Archbishop Thuc Letter
    « Reply #2 on: November 09, 2015, 10:07:54 AM »
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  • He's obviously speaking from within the context of the Roman Rite.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #3 on: November 09, 2015, 10:09:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: Centroamerica
    To say that those other rites of approved Catholic Mass are not pleasing to God is heresy.


     :facepalm:

    Are you kidding me?  You hold a position that the Roman/Latin Rite approved by the Church is "not pleasing to God".  That isn't heresy?  This cognitive dissonance is absolutely astonishing to me.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Archbishop Thuc Letter
    « Reply #4 on: November 09, 2015, 11:01:20 AM »
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  • Quote from: Centroamerica


    Quote from: Bishop Thuc


    The only Mass that pleases God is the Mass of St. Pius V



    I guess he forgot about the other dozen or so Catholic rites of Mass, at least 9 of these being very different and distinct from the Latin rite codified by St. Pius V.

    To say that those other rites of approved Catholic Mass are not pleasing to God is heresy.


    Could he have been speaking generally in regards to the Latin Rite which composes about 90% [?] of the Catholic Church?  

    It would be hard for me to imagine him neither being aware of the Eastern Rites or to believe these approved Rites were displeasing to God, but I guess stranger things could happen.  To bad we can't ask him.  I feel pretty safe knowing what his answer would be though.  I believe the answer would be the one that is so obvious that he did not feel the need to express it as he was speaking to Latin Rite Catholics in regards to the Rites that were changed by the (false-popes) rather than about the Rites that were left alone.

    But you do raise an excellent point and I agree that he could have put that distinction to pen to eliminate possible confusion, legit, or garnered up due to prejudice against his position.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #5 on: November 09, 2015, 11:02:42 AM »
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  • Just to be clear I am not down-thumbing anyone here.  Have not even read Ladislaus.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Centroamerica

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    Archbishop Thuc Letter
    « Reply #6 on: November 09, 2015, 12:47:11 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: Centroamerica


    Quote from: Bishop Thuc


    The only Mass that pleases God is the Mass of St. Pius V



    I guess he forgot about the other dozen or so Catholic rites of Mass, at least 9 of these being very different and distinct from the Latin rite codified by St. Pius V.

    To say that those other rites of approved Catholic Mass are not pleasing to God is heresy.


    Could he have been speaking generally in regards to the Latin Rite which composes about 90% [?] of the Catholic Church?  

    It would be hard for me to imagine him neither being aware of the Eastern Rites or to believe these approved Rites were displeasing to God, but I guess stranger things could happen.  To bad we can't ask him.  I feel pretty safe knowing what his answer would be though.  I believe the answer would be the one that is so obvious that he did not feel the need to express it as he was speaking to Latin Rite Catholics in regards to the Rites that were changed by the (false-popes) rather than about the Rites that were left alone.

    But you do raise an excellent point and I agree that he could have put that distinction to pen to eliminate possible confusion, legit, or garnered up due to prejudice against his position.  



    I think you are right.  Surely he would answer correctly, but the context doesn't justify this like Ladislaus claimed.  He says this exclusively and refers to a handful of priests who are offering a Mass that is "pleasing".  In my opinion, it isn't well written.  I don't think he was in heresy on that point, I only mentioned it because it is an error, whether by accidental omission or by ignorance (which is hard to believe).  He mentions a very small number of priests who are offering a Mass that is pleasing to God.  The context of the letter does not clarify the issue.  

    Ladislaus' comments are personal and the second one doesn't even make sense.  He isn't posting from a sound point of view, but based on feelings.  He accuses me of holding a ´position that the Latin Mass isn't pleasing to God.  He is either confused or deliberately spreading confusion.  Kind of hard to believe that the first one applies since I have only attended one Rite of Mass my whole life...the Traditional Latin one.



    We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #7 on: November 09, 2015, 01:00:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: Centroamerica
    Ladislaus' comments are personal and the second one doesn't even make sense.  He isn't posting from a sound point of view, but based on feelings.  He accuses me of holding a ´position that the Latin Mass isn't pleasing to God.  He is either confused or deliberately spreading confusion.  Kind of hard to believe that the first one applies since I have only attended one Rite of Mass my whole life...the Traditional Latin one.


    There is absolutely nothing personal about my comments, nor are they based on feelings.

    You declared it to be heretical to state that the Rites of Mass approved by the Church are not pleasing to God.

    So, tell me, Centro, do you consider the Novus Ordo Mass to be pleasing to God?

    You're completely dodging the question by hiding behind the claim that I am being "emotional" and "personal".



    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #8 on: November 09, 2015, 01:03:45 PM »
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  • PS -- I almost completely agree with your statement that one cannot say that the Rites of Mass approved by the Church are displeasing to God.  Of course, it's not quite heresy (a term you throw around quite freely), but something proximate to faith ... since the Church's disciplinary infallibility is not a defined dogma in the strict sense.  Nevertheless, I agree in principle with your statement to that effect.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    « Reply #9 on: November 09, 2015, 01:08:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: Centroamerica
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: Centroamerica


    Quote from: Bishop Thuc


    The only Mass that pleases God is the Mass of St. Pius V



    I guess he forgot about the other dozen or so Catholic rites of Mass, at least 9 of these being very different and distinct from the Latin rite codified by St. Pius V.

    To say that those other rites of approved Catholic Mass are not pleasing to God is heresy.


    Could he have been speaking generally in regards to the Latin Rite which composes about 90% [?] of the Catholic Church?  

    It would be hard for me to imagine him neither being aware of the Eastern Rites or to believe these approved Rites were displeasing to God, but I guess stranger things could happen.  To bad we can't ask him.  I feel pretty safe knowing what his answer would be though.  I believe the answer would be the one that is so obvious that he did not feel the need to express it as he was speaking to Latin Rite Catholics in regards to the Rites that were changed by the (false-popes) rather than about the Rites that were left alone.

    But you do raise an excellent point and I agree that he could have put that distinction to pen to eliminate possible confusion, legit, or garnered up due to prejudice against his position.  


    I think you are right.  Surely he would answer correctly, but the context doesn't justify this like Ladislaus claimed.  He says this exclusively and refers to a handful of priests who are offering a Mass that is "pleasing".  In my opinion, it isn't well written.  I don't think he was in heresy on that point, I only mentioned it because it is an error, whether by accidental omission or by ignorance (which is hard to believe).  He mentions a very small number of priests who are offering a Mass that is pleasing to God.  The context of the letter does not clarify the issue.  

    Ladislaus' comments are personal and the second one doesn't even make sense.  He isn't posting from a sound point of view, but based on feelings.  He accuses me of holding a ´position that the Latin Mass isn't pleasing to God.  He is either confused or deliberately spreading confusion.  Kind of hard to believe that the first one applies since I have only attended one Rite of Mass my whole life...the Traditional Latin one.





    I won't go to the well arguing against your point.  On the surface and perhaps beneath your point is well taken.  But again I think he was coming from a Latin Rite perspective.

    Thanks for the input which I believe is legitimate.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    « Reply #10 on: November 09, 2015, 01:10:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: Centroamerica


    Quote from: Bishop Thuc


    The only Mass that pleases God is the Mass of St. Pius V



    I guess he forgot about the other dozen or so Catholic rites of Mass, at least 9 of these being very different and distinct from the Latin rite codified by St. Pius V.

    To say that those other rites of approved Catholic Mass are not pleasing to God is heresy.


    Could he have been speaking generally in regards to the Latin Rite which composes about 90% [?] of the Catholic Church?


    Of course he is.  As for many Catholics, the Eastern Rites are out of sight and out of mind.  I'm guessing that he was unaware of what may or may not have changed over in the East and wasn't commenting about that.  If you ask most Traditional Catholics, they're unaware of what changes may or may not have happened with the East.  In fact, I know a Traditional Catholic priest who denounced the Eastern Rites as modernist because they don't "kneel" during their Liturgy.


     

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