Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Anthony M on May 11, 2012, 08:26:29 PM
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Here is a letter by the Archbishop himself on the topic of seeking approval from Rome. Taken from the book: Archbishop Lefebvre and the Vatican
Ecône
Nov. 21, 1987
Feast of the Presentation of the Most Holy Virgin Mary
Your Eminence,
You have been able to see and listen to the members of the Society, examine their formation, be present with them in their ministry, and listen to the faithful who rely on them for their sanctification.
You have conversed likewise with religious and with nuns who find in the Society either their origin, or their spiri-tual assistance, or the graces of their ordination and religious expression.
No doubt you may have noticed here and there some ex-aggeration, a little bitterness. But I cannot doubt that you have found a climate of Faith, of devotion, of zeal for truth and sanctity, which you once knew. This climate of Catholic Tradition is producing extraordinary fruits whose value you must recognize.
Thus we are forming a great family, living in this Catho-lic ambience and atmosphere, attached to the Roman Church, attached to Peter and his successors, but absolutely and radically allergic to the conciliar spirit of religious liberty, ecu-menism, collegiality, and the spirit of Assisi—the fruits of Modernism and Liberalism condemned so many times by the Holy See.
The consequences of this spirit are disastrous, and we flee from them as from a disease pestilential to our minds and hearts; we are doing everything we can to protect ourselves from it, and protect also the young people of our Catholic households.
Compare us to Israel in the midst of the perverse nations, to the Maccabees, and again to all these holy reformers of the clergy: St. Charles Borromeo, St. Vincent de Paul, St. John Eudes, Monsieur Olier.
Here is the reality: we are forming an army intent on re-maining Catholic no matter what the price, as we witness the de Christianisation taking place both outside and inside the Church.
We willingly agree to being recognized by the Pope such as we are, and to having a seat in the Eternal City, to adding our collaboration in the renewal of the Church; we have never desired to break with the Successor of Peter, nor to consider the Holy See as vacant, in spite of the trials this has caused for us.
We submit to you a project of reintegration and normali-zation of our relations with Rome. Considering what you now know of us and our works, you will not be surprised at our demands, which are founded solely on zeal for the good of the Church, and the salvation of souls, for the glory of God. Only in this spirit and taking into account these considera-tions can a solution be valid and stable.
If, in these conditions, a solution is impossible, then we will continue on our way as at present, “persevering in prayer and the preaching of the word,” as we wait for more favor-able circuмstances.
No matter what happens, however, we will continue to have a profound gratitude for you, for your charity and kind-ness, your understanding and your patience. At this hour we pray Our Lady of Fatima to repay you in blessings for what you have done for us.
Deign to accept, Eminence, my respectful and fraternal salutations in Jesus and Mary.
† Marcel Lefebvre
Archbishop Bishop Emeritus of Tulle
Founder of the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X
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What you conveniently fail to mention is that Archbishop LeFebvre backed out of any deal with Rome and happily accepted his excommunication.
"If they excommunicate us, we shall consider ourselves excommunicated from Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ. -Archbishop LeFebvre, sermon from 1978
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There was no small stipulation attached to this offer -- provisions for episcopal succession of Archbishop Lefebvre. The Superior General and each of his two assistants were to be bishops per the Society's constitutions.
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I think the crack pots on the list need a reality check as to what the Archbishop stood for.
You call us "crackpots" yet I never heard Archbishop Lefebvre speak of the Jews as "elder brothers."
He did speak of "masonic Rome" - and if there's one thing freemasons and modernists do its call people who believe in the Catholic faith "crackpots."
Absolutely contemptible to use that term towards us.
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Telesphorus
Maybe I am mistaken, but I didn't think that you represented the list? Nor are all on the list behind the position you take. Hence speak for yourself.
As for the Jews being elder brothers - They came before us in the faith - but they lost the faith - We no longer hold to the same faith . But faith came from the Jews to the Gentiles. Either way, what Fellay might think is irrelevant. It isn't about one personality vs other. That is crack pot cult worship. It isn't about Bishop Fellay Vs. Bishop Williamson. Don't place your hope in man.
It is about the faith and trying to keep a clear balance while seeing the bigger picture.
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As for the Jews being elder brothers - They came before us in the faith - but they lost the faith - We no longer hold to the same faith . But faith came from the Jews to the Gentiles.
They're not my "elder brothers" Father Schmidberger, long ago, when Archbishop Lefebvre was still alive, asked how could the Pope call the Jews our elder brothers?
Either way, what Fellay might think is irrelevant. It isn't about one personality vs other.
Now it's irrelevant what the Superior General thinks? It's irrelevant, the discrepancy between his position and Archbishop Lefebvre's? That's ridiculous.
That is crack pot cult worship. It isn't about Bishop Fellay Vs. Bishop Williamson. Don't place your hope in man.
Nope, crackpots are people think you are bound to follow someone who has sought to subvert your beliefs. Crackpots are people who treat the authority of the Superior General as being greater than that of the Pope, while denouncing sedevacantists and others who ask similar questions about how you can call a man a teacher of modernist heresies and still follow him as Pope.
It is about the faith
Faith in what? Faith in Jesus Christ? Or in Benedict XVI? 95% of Vatican II and the Elder Brothers?
We're not blind to the shift that's happened. It's very evident. Very clear. The typical SSPX-goer might not "get it" - but we get it. We see it, there's no excuse for it. No rationalization for it. No equivocations and evasions are going to work.
and trying to keep a clear balance
That is a meaningless statement, a form of implicit condescension, without any content.
while seeing the bigger picture.
The big picture is very easy to see. The big picture is the SSPX is getting a rope put around its neck. Part of the initiation.
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Interesting that some forum members "dislike" a post that is simply Abp. Lefebvre's own words.
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Interesting that some forum members "dislike" a post that is simply Abp. Lefebvre's own words.
No, Anthony is trying to prove that ABL would have signed a deal, but he is missing the FACT that he backed out of a deal and happily accepted his excommunication.
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Interesting that my post pointing out that some forum members dislike Abp. Lefebvre's own words is also disliked.
What do we have to fear from posting what Abp. Lefebvre himself wrote?
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Interesting that my post pointing out that some forum members dislike Abp. Lefebvre's own words is also disliked.
What do we have to fear from posting what Abp. Lefebvre himself wrote?
Did you read what I wrote?
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Here's a link to the entirety of the Archbishop's proposal since the OP only gave us part of it.
http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Archbishop_Lefebvre_and_the_Vatican/Part_I/1987-11-21.htm
I'd like to at least hear from +Fellay that he has similar guarantees for the continuation and growth of the Society under any new agreement with Rome.
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MaterDominici -
I would not expect anything else from Bishop Fellay. This he has assured his priests will be his firm position regarding any recognition from the Holy See.
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Here is a letter by the Archbishop himself on the topic of seeking approval from Rome. Taken from the book: Archbishop Lefebvre and the Vatican
Ecône
Nov. 21, 1987
Feast of the Presentation of the Most Holy Virgin Mary
Your Eminence,
You have been able to see and listen to the members of the Society, examine their formation, be present with them in their ministry, and listen to the faithful who rely on them for their sanctification.
You have conversed likewise with religious and with nuns who find in the Society either their origin, or their spiri-tual assistance, or the graces of their ordination and religious expression.
No doubt you may have noticed here and there some ex-aggeration, a little bitterness. But I cannot doubt that you have found a climate of Faith, of devotion, of zeal for truth and sanctity, which you once knew. This climate of Catholic Tradition is producing extraordinary fruits whose value you must recognize.
Thus we are forming a great family, living in this Catho-lic ambience and atmosphere, attached to the Roman Church, attached to Peter and his successors, but absolutely and radically allergic to the conciliar spirit of religious liberty, ecu-menism, collegiality, and the spirit of Assisi—the fruits of Modernism and Liberalism condemned so many times by the Holy See.
The consequences of this spirit are disastrous, and we flee from them as from a disease pestilential to our minds and hearts; we are doing everything we can to protect ourselves from it, and protect also the young people of our Catholic households.
Compare us to Israel in the midst of the perverse nations, to the Maccabees, and again to all these holy reformers of the clergy: St. Charles Borromeo, St. Vincent de Paul, St. John Eudes, Monsieur Olier.
Here is the reality: we are forming an army intent on re-maining Catholic no matter what the price, as we witness the de Christianisation taking place both outside and inside the Church.
We willingly agree to being recognized by the Pope such as we are, and to having a seat in the Eternal City, to adding our collaboration in the renewal of the Church; we have never desired to break with the Successor of Peter, nor to consider the Holy See as vacant, in spite of the trials this has caused for us.
We submit to you a project of reintegration and normali-zation of our relations with Rome. Considering what you now know of us and our works, you will not be surprised at our demands, which are founded solely on zeal for the good of the Church, and the salvation of souls, for the glory of God. Only in this spirit and taking into account these considera-tions can a solution be valid and stable.
If, in these conditions, a solution is impossible, then we will continue on our way as at present, “persevering in prayer and the preaching of the word,” as we wait for more favor-able circuмstances.
No matter what happens, however, we will continue to have a profound gratitude for you, for your charity and kind-ness, your understanding and your patience. At this hour we pray Our Lady of Fatima to repay you in blessings for what you have done for us.
Deign to accept, Eminence, my respectful and fraternal salutations in Jesus and Mary.
† Marcel Lefebvre
Archbishop Bishop Emeritus of Tulle
Founder of the Priestly Society of Saint Pius X
Yet again, the synapses seem to be misfiring.
Please post post-1988 quotes of this tenor.
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Telesphorus
Maybe I am mistaken, but I didn't think that you represented the list? Nor are all on the list behind the position you take. Hence speak for yourself.
As for the Jews being elder brothers - They came before us in the faith - but they lost the faith - We no longer hold to the same faith . But faith came from the Jews to the Gentiles. Either way, what Fellay might think is irrelevant. It isn't about one personality vs other. That is crack pot cult worship. It isn't about Bishop Fellay Vs. Bishop Williamson. Don't place your hope in man.
It is about the faith and trying to keep a clear balance while seeing the bigger picture.
I think you may be the first person in the hostory of this forum to have posted a perfect zero in the "reputation" category.
Congratulations!
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He actually is not. The others to also reach the "zero" reputation mark are:
Heitanen
Santo Subito
Blackie
"Pope" Augustine II
bobbyva
roscoe
romantheology
aquinasg
stevusmagnus (I think)
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So if this deal with Bp. Fellay falls through and he accepts another "excommunication," will you defend him the same way? Isn't the point that ABL did try to sign with Rome?
And around and around we go, for another sixty years. I'll come back here in a year after Bp. Fellay has been excommunicated, and you will all be calling him a martyr.
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So if this deal with Bp. Fellay falls through and he accepts another "excommunication," will you defend him the same way? Isn't the point that ABL did try to sign with Rome?
And around and around we go, for another sixty years. I'll come back here in a year after Bp. Fellay has been excommunicated, and you will all be calling him a martyr.
Raoul, you don't seem to understand the situation.
Archbishop LeFebvre never signed a deal with Rome. He backed out of it. As for Bishop Fellay, he won't be excommunicated. We all know what's going to happen. Rome will pretend to wait on their decision for another few weeks to build up drama, as they have been doing for some time now. Then they'll finally come out and say the Society has been officially "regularized". At least one of the other three Bishops will likely break away (if not all three), there will be a split, and Rome will be laughing at the fact that after over 40 years of trying, they finally split apart the Society.
This is Rome's main goal: to destroy the SSPX. They know they can't get ALL of the Society to come along, so they'll swallow up the part they get, and let the other part go out on their own with hardly any money or property.
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SP,
You wrote: This is Rome's main goal: to destroy the SSPX. They know they can't get ALL of the Society to come along, so they'll swallow up the part they get, and let the other part go out on their own with hardly any money or property.
what you have written is a great attack on the SSPX and it's priests.
Do you think that they want to sell out their faith for mere approval? Take a hike !
They would rather give their blood than compromise.
These priests have given their lives in serving the SSPX to defend the faith. There is no motive of 'sell out' but simply to come to the aid of the Church in great need .
If the SSPX priests wanted to sell out they can just to a FSS Peter chapel or other indult styled Trad Chapels.
I think you are missing the main point. The SSPX will never compromise contrary to what you or any crack pot on this list might think.
Your statements are venomous invectives which cause division and confusion. Shame on you.
As for reputation, well, if I have great honor here among crack pots like you what would that make me? And so I think a zero rating is a badge of honor.
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Sir, are you the Anthony Mary of the Tridentinpotists?
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Do you think that they want to sell out their faith for mere approval? Take a hike !
They would rather give their blood than compromise.
I think you should take a hike. Bishop Fellay is compromising, he already has been. The other three Bishops have not.
These priests have given their lives in serving the SSPX to defend the faith. There is no motive of 'sell out' but simply to come to the aid of the Church in great need.
The SSPX isn't the first group that thought it could march into Rome and change everything. Several other groups thought the same thing and were unsuccessful.
I think you are missing the main point. The SSPX will never compromise contrary to what you or any crack pot on this list might think.
A naive statement.
Your statements are venomous invectives which cause division and confusion. Shame on you.
Shame on you for spewing falsehood about the situation you neo con.
As for reputation, well, if I have great honor here among crack pots like you what would that make me? And so I think a zero rating is a badge of honor.
You are the crackpot, I'm afraid.
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Sir, are you the Anthony Mary of the Tridentinpotists?
Bingo! :applause: