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Author Topic: Archbishop Lefebvre on Sedevacantism  (Read 34188 times)

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Archbishop Lefebvre on Sedevacantism
« Reply #190 on: March 03, 2011, 07:57:16 AM »
Where did ABL say that JPII personally "endorsed" the worshipping of false gods?

I would fully agree that JPII, through Assisi, gave the appearance of indifferentism and that this was scandalous.

I don't think there is any way one could credibly argue though, that JPII personally approved of Catholics worshipping false gods. If so, where is the evidence?

As for the non-Catholics, JPII proclaimed at Assisi itself our belief in Jesus Christ. He did not attend or assist at any pagan worship. He purposely kept himself separated from it. At Assisi II the abuses that happened at Assisi I regarding pagans using our churches was corrected.

In conclusion, Assisi was a scandal and a PR nightmare sowing mass confusion and should be rightly criticized. However, this fact does not mean that JPII himself preached that it does not matter what religion one belongs to or that we shuld all join a one world church. These are presumptions, assumptions, etc. that some Trads are using as a basis of rejecting the NO church.

My point is that the bad practices of the NO church should be rejected based on those bad practices themselves and pointing them out, but not going beyond them into the realm of making speculation into fact.

Offline SJB

Archbishop Lefebvre on Sedevacantism
« Reply #191 on: March 03, 2011, 08:47:45 AM »
Quote from: stevusmagnus
Where did ABL say that JPII personally "endorsed" the worshipping of false gods?

I would fully agree that JPII, through Assisi, gave the appearance of indifferentism and that this was scandalous.

I don't think there is any way one could credibly argue though, that JPII personally approved of Catholics worshipping false gods. If so, where is the evidence?

As for the non-Catholics, JPII proclaimed at Assisi itself our belief in Jesus Christ. He did not attend or assist at any pagan worship. He purposely kept himself separated from it. At Assisi II the abuses that happened at Assisi I regarding pagans using our churches was corrected.

In conclusion, Assisi was a scandal and a PR nightmare sowing mass confusion and should be rightly criticized. However, this fact does not mean that JPII himself preached that it does not matter what religion one belongs to or that we shuld all join a one world church. These are presumptions, assumptions, etc. that some Trads are using as a basis of rejecting the NO church.

My point is that the bad practices of the NO church should be rejected based on those bad practices themselves and pointing them out, but not going beyond them into the realm of making speculation into fact.


No, the point is that NO churchman has called him (JPII, for example) out for such acts!

Quote from: Archbishop Lefebvre, 1986
Since the Council we have been seeing the situation get graver and graver, year by year, but the Synod was gravest of all because there they said, "We are continuing! Despite all difficulties, the Council was the work of the Holy Ghost, a second Pentecost. We must continue in the spirit of the Council. There will be no restrictions, no reprimands, no return to Tradition." So now we see them saying, "Let's go even faster!" Naturally, since there were no objections at the Synod to the spirit of the Council put into practice over 20 years, and since all agreed with the changes in the Church, then there is no reason not to continue even faster, and we are arriving at the total destruction of the Church!

The escalation of this Church-destroying ecuмenism is taking place in broad daylight. In Morocco last year the Pope told a crowd of Mohammedans that they pray to the same God as Catholics do. But it is not true. Mohammedans teach that to kill a Christian is good because he is an idolater, worshipping the man Jesus Christ as God. Also last year, in Togo, the Pope poured out on the ground a pagan sacrifice to the god of the animists or African spirit-worshippers. Early this year, in India, he let some Hindu "priestess" mark him on the forehead with the sign of her sect!

Incredible! "All gods of the pagans are devils," says Scripture (Ps.95,5). How can the Pope receive the sign of the devil? Whatever god is not Jesus Christ is not the one and only true God. And most recently, the Pope has been into the ѕуηαgσgυє of the Jews in Rome. How can the Pope pray with the enemies of Jesus Christ? These Jews know and say and believe that they are the successors of the Jews that killed Jesus Christ, and they continue to fight against Jesus Christ everywhere in the world. At the end of the Pope's visit, the Jews sang a "hymn" that included the line "I believe with all my heart in the coming of the Messiah," meaning they refuse Jesus as the Messiah, and the Pope had given permission for this denial of Christ to be sung in his presence, and he listened, with head bowed! And the Holy See announces that in the near future he will visit Taize to pray with the Protestants, and he himself said in public at St. Paul Outside of the Walls that later this year he will hold a ceremony gathering all religions of the world together to pray for peace at Assisi in Italy, on the occasion of the Feast of Peace proclaimed by the United Nations due to take place on October 24.

Now all these facts are public, you have seen them in the newspapers and the media. What are we to think? What is the reaction of our Catholic Faith? That is what matters. It is not our personal feelings, a sort of impression or admission of some kind. It is a question of knowing what our Faith tells us, faced with these facts. Let me quote a few words - not my words - from Canon Naz's Dictionary of Canon Law, a wholly official and approved commentary on what has been the Catholic Church's body of law for nineteen centuries. On the subject of sharing in the worship of non-Catholics (after all, this is what we now see Pope and bishops doing), the Church says, in Canon 1258-1: "It is absolutely forbidden for Catholics to attend or take any active part in the worship of non-Catholics in any way whatsoever." On this Canon the quasi-official Naz Commentary says, and I quote, "A Catholic takes active part when he joins in heterodox; i.e., non-Catholic worship with the intention of honouring God by this means in the way non-Catholics do. It is forbidden to pray, to sing or to play the organ in a heretical or schismatic temple, in association with the people worshipping there, even if the words of the hymn or the song or the prayer are orthodox." The reason for this prohibition is that any participation in non-Catholic worship implies profession of a false religion and hence denial of the Catholic Faith. By such participation Catholics are presumed to be adhering to the beliefs of the non- Catholics, and that is why Canon 2316 declares them "suspect of heresy, and if they persevere, they are to be treated as being in reality heretics."

Now these recent acts of the Pope and bishops, with Protestants, animists and Jews, are they not an active participation in non-Catholic worship as explained by Canon Naz on Canon 1258-1? In which case, I cannot see how it is possible to say that the Pope is not suspect of heresy, and if he continues, he is a heretic, a public heretic. That is the teaching of the Church.



Offline gladius_veritatis

  • Supporter
Archbishop Lefebvre on Sedevacantism
« Reply #192 on: March 03, 2011, 10:34:34 AM »
Quote from: stevusmagnus
However, this fact does not mean that JPII himself preached that it does not matter what religion one belongs to...


His ENTIRE LIFE preached this message in the best way possible -- highly-visible, repeated actions.

Archbishop Lefebvre on Sedevacantism
« Reply #193 on: March 03, 2011, 01:17:01 PM »
Quote from: gladius_veritatis
Quote from: SpiritusSanctus
To my knowledge, ABL never specifically said JPII was worshipping false gods, but he did say that JPII was endorsing the act of doing so.


What is the moral effect of such endorsement?  His entire 'papacy' was about such endorsements.

If I endorse murderers, rapists, or abortionists, what are the moral consequences?  Presuming others know about it, what are the possible consequences within the order of law?

What if I go out of my way to visit VooDoo practitioners, deep in the jungles of Africa, expressly to confirm them in their devilry?  Are such actions alone without consequences?


That is my whole point. JPII was endorsing the act of worshipping false gods.

Archbishop Lefebvre on Sedevacantism
« Reply #194 on: March 03, 2011, 01:23:23 PM »
Quote from: stevusmagnus
Where did ABL say that JPII personally "endorsed" the worshipping of false gods?

I would fully agree that JPII, through Assisi, gave the appearance of indifferentism and that this was scandalous.

I don't think there is any way one could credibly argue though, that JPII personally approved of Catholics worshipping false gods. If so, where is the evidence?

As for the non-Catholics, JPII proclaimed at Assisi itself our belief in Jesus Christ. He did not attend or assist at any pagan worship. He purposely kept himself separated from it. At Assisi II the abuses that happened at Assisi I regarding pagans using our churches was corrected.

In conclusion, Assisi was a scandal and a PR nightmare sowing mass confusion and should be rightly criticized. However, this fact does not mean that JPII himself preached that it does not matter what religion one belongs to or that we shuld all join a one world church. These are presumptions, assumptions, etc. that some Trads are using as a basis of rejecting the NO church.

My point is that the bad practices of the NO church should be rejected based on those bad practices themselves and pointing them out, but not going beyond them into the realm of making speculation into fact.


Stevus, I have agreed with you on numerous things on both CAF and here on CatholicInfo. But this is one thing I strongly disagree with you on. A person cannot commit the sin of presumption when they literally see a Pope holding meetings that has people of nearly all religions praying together. Would you invite Buddhists, Jews, Hinduists, etc. to your house to pray for peace? I think not, and the Pope is inviting these people into his house, which really is God's house. If JPII did not see anything wrong with these false religions then he never would have held meetings at Assissi and instead would have condemned every one of their false religions. The mark of shiva that JPII received was more than just a "cultural greeting". He was kissing up to the non-Catholics and at the same time shunning the Traditionalists. That's what modernists do.