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Author Topic: Apostolic Succession  (Read 5611 times)

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Offline trad123

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Apostolic Succession
« on: January 31, 2010, 04:37:08 AM »
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    « Reply #1 on: January 31, 2010, 04:38:02 AM »
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    « Reply #2 on: January 31, 2010, 04:50:02 AM »
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    • Perhaps CM will say, he doesn't deny the Church shall always have perpetual successors, just in the same manner than Vatican I says Peter shall always have perpetual successors, perhaps believing there can be a long interregnum in both cases.

    And yet the second article in the first post says:

    "such pastors will never be wanting in her"

    There can never be an interregnum of priests and bishops.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline 008

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    « Reply #3 on: January 31, 2010, 05:37:45 AM »
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    • This trad123 has got to be about 19 years old and full of the devil's vinegar.

    No apostolic succession = no means of grace which has been annihilated all over the earth

     = means Christ is a hireling who flees when the wolf comes (despite the contrary implicit promise of John 10) making the sheep to universally starve and die

    = means Christ's promise never to forsake the visible, hierarchical Church per Vatican I (Pope + bishops +faithful forever) has been disproven = gates of Hell have prevailed.

    There's the Antichrist theology of trad123, poor false prophet

    Layman shouldn't be debating theology but rather living it. The Traditional Mass is available to everyone, the rest is above ordinary lay competence
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    Offline SJB

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    « Reply #4 on: January 31, 2010, 11:02:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: 008
    Layman shouldn't be debating theology but rather living it. The Traditional Mass is available to everyone, the rest is above ordinary lay competence.


    Yes, and when I quoted a well respected Moral Theology Manual that gave a specific example very close to the situation at the SGG school, you started to attack the manualists. Answer this for us 008 ... isn't it above your "ordinary lay competence" to question the Manuals?

    Quote from: 008
    This trad123 has got to be about 19 years old and full of the devil's vinegar.


    Where's the love, 008?
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    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline trad123

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    « Reply #5 on: January 31, 2010, 01:37:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: 008
    No apostolic succession = no means of grace which has been annihilated all over the earth

    Uh, Hello? My posts are defending apostolic succession. Have I not made it clear that CM and his buddy do not believe there are any priests or bishops left on this earth, and that this is not my own belief?

    Quote
    = means Christ's promise never to forsake the visible, hierarchical Church per Vatican I (Pope + bishops +faithful forever) has been disproven = gates of Hell have prevailed.

    Did you not read the 2nd post? A long vacancy of the Holy See is not against the promises of Christ.

    Quote
    There's the Antichrist theology of trad123, poor false prophet

    Layman shouldn't be debating theology but rather living it. The Traditional Mass is available to everyone, the rest is above ordinary lay competence

    This theology is not my own. Can you see the dates those works were published in my 2nd post?

    And 008, I'm still waiting for you to comment on Lumen Gentium.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline 008

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    « Reply #6 on: January 31, 2010, 02:01:14 PM »
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    Did you not read the 2nd post? A long vacancy of the Holy See is not against the promises of Christ.


    Ah, so so believe the means of grace remains in the whole world even in the Novus ordo? If so then I most humbly apologize. If not the criticisim remains since you would have Christ desert 99.9% of the Catholic world.

    Quote
    ...devil's vinegar...where is the love?


    Aw gosh, my rhetorical flourish again! Sorry!  :wave:
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    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    « Reply #7 on: January 31, 2010, 02:13:02 PM »
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    • Quote from: 008
    Ah, so so believe the means of grace remains in the whole world even in the Novus ordo?


    Do YOU go to the NOM?  If not, why not?

    Quote
    If not the criticisim remains since you would have Christ desert 99.9% of the Catholic world.


    Do you believe Christ deserted the apostles when He died, or that they deserted Him during His Passion?  The Gospel tells us what His apostles and disciples thought -- they were wrong.

    Quote
    The Traditional Mass is available to everyone...


    To put it VERY mildly, this is a bit of a stretch, 008.  In the late 1960s early 1970s, and well beyond, such was not even CLOSE to the case.  What happened then?  Did Christ "abandon" Catholics?

    Further, why should it matter AT ALL if the TLM is available?  Is not the NOM sufficient?  If not, WHY not?
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    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline CM

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    « Reply #8 on: January 31, 2010, 06:06:55 PM »
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    Uh, Hello? My posts are defending apostolic succession. Have I not made it clear that CM and his buddy do not believe there are any priests or bishops left on this earth, and that this is not my own belief?


    Wrong.  We just don't know of any who are Catholic (non-heretical).

    Any more words you'd like to put in my mouth?

    And thanks to Raoul76 for point the following nuance of the Vatican Council decree to me:

    Quote from: Vatican Council
    5. Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole Church; or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema.


    Trad123, do you know the difference between the words "should" and "will"?  Between a dogmatic decree and prophecy?
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    Offline trad123

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    « Reply #9 on: January 31, 2010, 06:12:25 PM »
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    • Quote from: CM
    Wrong.  We just don't know of any who are Catholic (non-heretical).

    Any more words you'd like to put in my mouth?


    The title of the article (yet to be uploaded) is a denial that the Church shall always have lawful successors.

    Quote from: CM
    Trad123, do you know the difference between the words should and will?


    Did you not read my 2nd post?
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline CM

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    « Reply #10 on: January 31, 2010, 06:23:02 PM »
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    • (hertical) CMRI, (heretical) Stepanich, A bunch of late 19th, early 20th century theologians...

    Not the weightiest material available Trad.
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    Offline CM

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    « Reply #11 on: January 31, 2010, 06:23:48 PM »
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    • Where's your smoking gun?
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    Offline trad123

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    « Reply #12 on: January 31, 2010, 06:24:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: CM
    Not the weightiest material available Trad.

    Did you not read the beginning of the quote?

    Quote
    Objection II: Vatican Council I taught that St. Peter has perpetual successors; therefore, long vacancies in the See of Peter are not possible.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline CM

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    « Reply #13 on: January 31, 2010, 06:32:34 PM »
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    • Hello!  I dealt with that point already.  "Should" vs. "will" or rather "shall", but you ignored it.

    Let Raoul76 explain it to you.
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    Offline trad123

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    « Reply #14 on: January 31, 2010, 06:39:58 PM »
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    • That's merely another way of showing that a long vacancy of the Holy See is not impossible, the things I quoted still stand.
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    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.
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