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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Centroamerica on July 07, 2014, 01:06:41 PM

Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Centroamerica on July 07, 2014, 01:06:41 PM: I would like to present a recent event in Brazil that has scandalized many Catholics. I translated the key part up to the section where the author begins to defend the Motu Proprio. If you go to the link you will see the videos including one of the alleged priest's Mass. What follows after that section is a copy and pasted google translation as I was running out of time and need to focus energy else where. I apologize.

In my opinion, Brazil is suffering more from this crisis than any other American country. The masons have a strong grip on everything in this country. Certainly, the sell out +Rifan does not help when he tells Catholics that they can go to both Masses and everything is okay. ------------Centroamerica

http://fidespress.com/brasil/tradicionalista-um-catolico-autentico-mas-de-segunda-categoria-diz-tv-aparecida/

Traditionalist: An Authentic Catholic but second class, says TV Aparecida

On June 26, 2014, the TV Aparecida program "Em Frente" received a caller, Vanya Bonatto. After greeting the hosts, the caller asked a questionar to Fr. Pedro Cunha, a member of the program, and received a rather unfortunate response.

Below you will read the dialogue held at the station with our emphasis and notes in red.

Father Peter, I have a very big doubt..- I have a son and he has become extremely religious, Catholic, minister of the, my son suddenly retorted. I mean he tells me: Mom, I'm Catholic and I will continue to be truly Catholic", it's just that he turned into that kind of Pre-Vatican 2 Catholic, the Traditional one, well.

They go into a chapel because they don't have a church there, they go into a chapel where the priest celebrates with his back to the people, right. My daughter-in-law only goes using a veil and dress or skirt, and they always talk about going to a monastery. [translator note: speaking of monasteries is strange for the Novus Ordo here, outdated. Could the monastery be the monastery of Dom Tomas?] He had never missed a Mass on the network Vida or TV Aparecida, everyday, he was a regular, and today it is different. He tells me: "Mother, I pray the Rosary [15 mysteries] every day! I'm Catholic and I want to take back my religion", but I do not agree and do not know if I am wrong or not.

Up to this point, the caller has not pointed out if her son is a sede vacantist, apostate, or heretical, she has only mentioned his way of "living the faith" and that does not agree- out of ignorance- to the way she does. In this case, the request of the caller was a to clarify if her son was a Catholic because her ignorance and prejudice seems to state otherwise.

Father Pedro asked the host Rodolfo Ferraz, a clear fan of Liberation Theology (condemned by JP2), to respond to the caller. However, he gives a brief introduction: This is the Catholic Church, it is truly Catholic, but the people are very reactionary are they not? Rodolfo chuckles and is interrupted by Denise Procopio, a host of the program that wants to give an example of a situation that she believes is similar:

"Let me just mention something I have here an email here I would like to read (presented as a doubt) except that in this one the mother says her son is an atheist. May I read? Because if you want there is already a correspondence.....

Then, we present the drama of a mother who wants to rekindle the faith in her son....Rodolfo asks Fr. Peter: would you like to say something and then I will speak?

"Look, in reference to this young man [atheist] I have no concern. I am much more concerned with the first question [traditionalist] than with the second. And you can say: Our Father, for the love of God. A person is Catholic and living their faith profoundly. People, religious fundamentalism is dangerous or even more dangerous than atheism. How come? Because religious fundamentalism can lead you to do crazy things. (As history proves chimes in Rodolfo.) Exactly.

About the teen, he's going through a phase. You know what you have to do? Don't argue or try to convince him of anything. You have to be an excellent Catholic, and excellent Christian, in,order to show him the living Gospel, not the spoken Gospel or the written Gospel.

If he gets it, rest assured that when he grows up a little more push the thing and he'll say "Oh my gosh." It's like those people who were Catholic and become evangelicals [surely the program knows about this] who do not want to know about Our Lady, right. Now, let's go back to the other case because I think it's important, concluded the priest.

Fr. Pedro makes the initial conclusion that it is less worrisome to have an atheist son than one who participates in the Traditional Mass because the Traditional Mass is essentially fundamentalist.

Rodolfo: So, in fact, I share the concern of the priest today because there are many groups with fundamentalist bias. I do not, and I know that father does not, saying that this that this is the case with the group to which your son belongs, but tell us what happened? A few years ago (2007), Pope Benedict XVI authorized those well-formed communities to celebrate according to the Old Rite, that is the Rite of the Council of Trent, they could do,it. It was because of the sensitivity of the pope to respect those communities who would like to maintain this way of praying. What ever happened was a proliferation that was actually contrary to what Pope Benedict XVI himself wanted.

Hey, that's not what Benedict said in Summorum Pontificuм. Benedict XVI was emphatic that "permission to celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass of the Mass following the typical edition of the Roman Missal promulgated by John XXIII in 1962 and never abrogated" Rodolfo grabs article 3 of the docuмent which says that religious communities can have it, and says that it is the desire of the pope that only that group can access it. This is totally false. Article 2 states:

[google translation continues the article]

"In Masses celebrated without the people, the any Catholic priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or religious, may use the Roman Missal published by Blessed Pope John XXIII in 1962 or the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970, and offer it every day with the exception of the Easter Triduum. To this conclusion by one or the other Missal, the priest does not need any authorization from the Apostolic See or from his Ordinary . "

Everything that goes beyond those words of Mr. Rodolfo is increased.

The question came handy because even yesterday (25/06) Pope Francisco hosted a group of religious (read Franciscans of the Immaculate) who just want to say Mass as well and received the Pope to tell them: 'No, even if the Church with Benedict XVI has authorized, I want you to ask permission because officially the rite of the Mass is that of Paul VI, the Second Vatican Council, the Church of the people of God where everyone participates. " So, there is a return to that kind of movement that is dangerous and that is not the liturgy or why this group was formed by many older people in Latin or who would like the Pope wanted to observe, so keep praying.

Intellectual dishonesty. There is no public speech of the Holy Father Francisco about it! What there are are speculations of evil people who would love the Pope to say this. If that were true, that would be directed at a speech that IBP has the obligation conferred by His Holiness Benedict XVI, celebrating the old rite exclusively.

It traditionalism by traditionalism is an affront to our way of living the Faith today, as if the wrong part with the people participating, with the priest facing the people. So unfortunately it is not only the celebration of the liturgy, but in a whole mindset that follows and criticizes the Second Vatican Council , which is the spirit in which the Church lives, and is celebrating Thanksgiving this council after 50 years.

Well, as stated earlier, the only son of caller attends Mass in the extraordinary form, was not told anything about the critical missal of Paul VI that is not a work of the council itself, but concomitant to council.

Now comes the most disastrous part of the conversation: Father Pedro proves by A + B that do not even know what is Mass.

Father Pedro Cunha takes the floor:

Look, look Rodolfo, I know you have a call waiting, but I wanted to say something as a priest, I am a priest for 25 years, you've been my Masses, Denise has been there many Masses mine and I celebrate with joy, I celebrate with taste, celebrate with enthusiasm, but I celebrate the people, involving them with their lives and I do not celebrate Mass for me.
E, and I honestly I can not imagine I turn my back on the people and a Mass like? That way and that so? How I'll do it? For the love of God. It is the people of God who is there. I am the presence of Jesus Christ to the people, so I have to embrace the people, being with him, sing to him, smile at him, talk to them and pray with them, because it is God's people, I'm not alone.

He assumes that people do not have "participation" in the Mass of Pius V, poor, confuses the Mass with a little show. Of course the people "interact" in the Missal of Pius V, but not interact, nothing changes. Believe Father Pedro, nobody wakes up early on Sundays to watch their numerozinhos, or to see your beautiful face, since the center of mass is Christ, not the priest Pedro Cunha, nor the people. The Mass is the center of the dialogue between the people and the priest is an invention of Luther.

About priest living c 243_Francis_Ad_Orientam_IMAGEOstas for the people: Dear priest, how can you say something stupid like that? The Mass is the sacrifice of Christ for the people, not the people. The priest celebrates in persona Christi to Father God.

The Mass is the sacrifice of Christ therefore directed to God the Father for the people of God , understand the difference? Alias, Fr. Peter, as fond ofdistort the attitudes of the Pope, why not a little lecture about His Holiness Francisco celebrate "backs" (adopting their language) to the people?

Do you not know that this position is in the missal of Paul VI? Alias, usais the missal in his Masses or just go with pompons to help the joy, zest and enthusiasm?

Since the issue is the new path of the Church, could show us where the missal has the attitudes of the video below?

Note: This video makes clear why their masses are with "joy." 😉

Another thing I am afraid, is hiding in a way, it seems, I am judging, perhaps one my sin, right? And I think I am judging myself, but sometimes I have the impression that some of these people hide and use it as a sort of curtain, the same veil, to hide other things, right? And it is not because of it - who am I to say that he saw? - Is a perception that I have, but I got the impression that it is as if to say this: Yes, I do well to realize that no one really who I am.

Soon, masses with pitch ball, as the video above shows the deepest of Father Pedro. 😉

Rodolfo takes the word and says:

So, right Father? As I said, the liturgy is not only the rite, and a whole mindset, those gestures, those movements, those ceremonial, is a mindset for life. See what she (the caller) says: That son dropped his community he served as minister of the word, that the son's wife now can only wear a skirt and veil on liturgy is probably a separate church, on one side only the other men just women, ie, goes against the spirit of the council and it was not what Pope Benedict XVI to authorize the Mass of Trent.

One more lie. The Missal of Paul VI is not the work of the council. The Missal of Paul VI was created in the same period, but is the work of Paul VI, not the council, as Sacrosanctum Concilium (Vatican II docuмent that talks about the liturgy) has not sent any time that we took a new Missal!
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Mabel on July 08, 2014, 08:38:03 PM: Poor guy. The same thing was done to me, although not on a radio program, when I embraced the Faith of our Fathers. It is a cross to have a mother like that.
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Centroamerica on July 09, 2014, 01:41:51 PM: Quote from: Mabel
Poor guy. The same thing was done to me, although not on a radio program, when I embraced the Faith of our Fathers. It is a cross to have a mother like that.

Sorry, this was on mainstream Brazilian television. I had left out many details and I apologize.

My Portguese translating skills aren't as great as my Spanish translating abibilties and requires a bit more focus and attention [and headache]. As I had said, I only had time that day to translate the first part.

The incident has received a lot of attention in Brazil because of the popularity of the program. In fact, many Brazilians expressed sharp criticisms to the show and "Fr." Pedro. As a result, I think the network has sent them all on a leave of absence [read vacation]. It was great to go to the Facebook page and see thousands of comments calling the hosts modernist apostates.

When Dr. David Allen White said that he thought that Our Lady of Fatima was referring to Brazil when she said "......in Portugal there will always remain the dogma of the Faith", he just might of been right. (By the way if anybody can send me that page from "The Mouth of the Lion" to translate and post it would be appreciated.)

Thanks,
Centroamerica
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 09, 2014, 10:39:23 PM: .

Thanks for the red font. It's a lot more comprehensible that way! :cowboy:

Quote from: Centroamerica
Quote from: Mabel
Poor guy. The same thing was done to me, although not on a radio program, when I embraced the Faith of our Fathers. It is a cross to have a mother like that.

Sorry, this was on mainstream Brazilian television. I had left out many details and I apologize.

My Portguese translating skills aren't as great as my Spanish translating abibilties and requires a bit more focus and attention [and headache]. As I had said, I only had time that day to translate the first part.

The incident has received a lot of attention in Brazil because of the popularity of the program. In fact, many Brazilians expressed sharp criticisms to the show and "Fr." Pedro. As a result, I think the network has sent them all on a leave of absence [read vacation]. It was great to go to the Facebook page and see thousands of comments calling the hosts modernist apostates.

When Dr. David Allen White said that he thought that Our Lady of Fatima was referring to Brazil when she said "......in Portugal there will always remain the dogma of the Faith", he just might of been right. (By the way if anybody can send me that page from "The Mouth of the Lion" to translate and post it would be appreciated.)

Thanks,
Centroamerica

Here we go again!! :wink:

Thanks for the update, in bold above. Thousands of Facebook comments calling the hosts Modernist apostates!?

I think Matthew wouldn't mind if you copied them here even in Portuguese, so we could translate them later or whatever. I'd like to see some of them!!

As for Brazil being what Our Lady was talking about -- that's curious. I've heard that before. There have been over the past 5 decades thousands of people who have tried to move to Portugal because of those few words at Fatima, but they have been quite disappointed. One medical doctor and his family tried to make a go of life in Lisbon (he thought the city was big enough for one more doctor), but he was unable to stay in business because the patients who came to him could not afford to pay his fees. He ended up leaving the country.

So this news in Brazil is quite fascinating.

Maybe I could post the last discussion you and I were having on about this. It seems CI might be a more friendly place to discuss it IYKWIM.

.
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Centroamerica on July 10, 2014, 09:53:23 PM: The Facebook page is public and anyone can view on "Em Frente" Aparecida TV.

I apologize if I exaggerated and said "thousands" Neil, it should've been "hundreds". (404)

Quote from: Brazilian Catholics

•Look here what a real priest of the Holy Church says Catholicly about the use of a veil. [There apparently was a second episode where they made a debauchery out of women who use chapel veils-Centro]

• I don't understand the motives for belittling Tradition, and you know that the numbers of traditionalist will increase, "even if the number of Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handfull, they are the True Catholic Church"

• For crying out loud take this program of the air!

•The program "Em Frente" is a portrait of the Brazilian church, a church that is progressivist, that is not responsible with Tradition and wants to produce a new church. This church is not the Church of Christ, but a man-made church. This debauchery of tradition and the Tridentine Mass. If we want another 1,000 years for the Church we must surely preserve Tradition, not be in favor of whatever style that comes about. Styles fade, the Faith remains.

•This "priest" making other priests look bad. Very laudable for a Catholic emissary. They must be followers of Liberation Theology like the heretic Boff and friends of Fr. Beto.

I have a couple more I'll post.
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Centroamerica on July 10, 2014, 10:10:10 PM: Here's a good one. :detective:

Quote from: Brazilian Catholics

. •Oh my, how many retrograde hipsters, TV Aparecida. With this that you're telling us right? Father Debauchery, the old witch transvesting as an adolescent, who are you all to make a debauchery of Tradition and Catholic doctrine? Damned Modernists!

•Video Unhappy reply to the program Em Frente.

•Learning to be Catholic, use of the veil in Brazil and in the whole world.

•lengthy response denouncing the program ensues taking about several pages
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Centroamerica on July 11, 2014, 07:01:35 AM: Quote from: Neil Obstat
.

Maybe I could post the last discussion you and I were having on about this. It seems CI might be a more friendly place to discuss it IYKWIM.

.

Sure Neil. Go ahead and post it.
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Centroamerica on July 11, 2014, 09:07:59 AM: Quote from: Brazilian Catholics

•One of them more or less a feminist and the other looks like a closet queer. And what about the priest? A little bit of both. You three don't represent to be Apostolic Roman Catholics! You padre, are a long way from being comparable with the great saint Padre Pio, the one that celebrated the Tridentine Mass and cried to celebrate the Mass of all times. If you all don't convert you will burn in hell. Study Denzinger!

•The comments you all made in respects to priest that are more traditional were despicable. You know you can't take this priest seriously when instead of fighting against religious indifferentism or against error, he fights against those who "do things more certain" than the Church requires. Just a band of modernists! (218 likes)

•Is there a heterosɛҳuąƖ psychologist and a more respectful priest to put on this program or what?

If someone is gαy then they're all for it....but everything else is made fun of. Could it get any crazier? (138 likes)

•Dear father, your blessing, I was indignant with how you counseled the faithful and injured the [name of] the other priest. Where is the respect for the sacred ministry? I hope that you take some time to reflect over this account. To the directors of this program I ask in the name of my family, that has contributed to the calls of devotees, that you all should get the psychologist to have a little more respect for the Tridentine Rite and not make fun of a Sacred Rite of the Church that gives him his employment. (99 likes)

• According to this progressivist priest that represents this program, a priest that uses [cassock_centro] vestments is doubtful. He is doubtful is he doesn't let himself be identified as a Catholic priest. The cassock is symbolic, die to yourself and live for others. Don't ever trust the words of a priest that does not identify himself with a habit. To be a priest is to be at the service [of others].
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Centroamerica on July 11, 2014, 09:15:25 AM: Here is the page link. All comments and posts can be viewed here ....
https://www.facebook.com/emfrente
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: PerEvangelicaDicta on July 11, 2014, 10:26:57 AM: The comments are heartening!

As I've mentioned, I found very little support for tradition in Chile, none in the n.o. church and few in the populace. The people are as modernized in S. America as any in N. America, perhaps more so, even those who attend the few TLM's available. Like Brazil, the masons have Chile in a chokehold. All money and power is concentrated in a few family hands. You see masonic imagery everywhere in Santiago, and all the major business logos. Worst of all, the bishop (current and previous) is incredibly and outwardly hostile to the TLM, and the n.o. masses are beyond salvageable. They fraternize openly with masonic political and corporate VIP's. They speak like Bergoglio - the same modernist poison.
It's hard to explain the state of the church in S. America - it has to be seen to be believed. Bergoglio is acting true to form, even a little toned down.

Thank you for the update Centroamerica. It's good to share the cross of our brothers outside N. America and Europe too.
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: PerEvangelicaDicta on July 11, 2014, 10:30:42 AM: Quote
Damned Modernists!
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Centroamerica on July 11, 2014, 12:28:04 PM: Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta

Thank you for the update Centroamerica. It's good to share the cross of our brothers outside N. America and Europe too.

I agree with your comments. It is very much the same here as you described Chile. Your welcome. I hope to find ways to connect Brazil with the English speaking world a little more. It seems that the Brazilian youth is split between the Charasmatic movement and the traditional Faith. Despite the open scandals, many young Brazilians are finding Traditional Catholicism. The comments are heartening. I had no idea so many Brazilians felt this way until seeing this incident and the backlash it provoked.

Nossa Senhora de Aparecida, rogai por nos!
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 11, 2014, 02:39:47 PM: Quote from: Centroamerica
Quote from: PerEvangelicaDicta

Thank you for the update Centroamerica. It's good to share the cross of our brothers outside N. America and Europe too.

I agree with your comments. It is very much the same here as you described Chile. Your welcome. I hope to find ways to connect Brazil with the English speaking world a little more. It seems that the Brazilian youth is split between the Charasmatic movement and the traditional Faith. Despite the open scandals, many young Brazilians are finding Traditional Catholicism. The comments are heartening. I had no idea so many Brazilians felt this way until seeing this incident and the backlash it provoked.

Nossa Senhora de Aparecida, rogai por nos!

(http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&s=attach&id=5247)

Our Lady of Aparecida? [TV???] The TV network has a patroness? :confused1:

FYI: I have mentioned this to several friends, and when I ask them, "Have you ever heard of Aparecida TV?" They answer: "NO." Then I have to explain that it's a huge TV conglomerate in Brazil kind of like Turner Broadcasting or Clear Channel or NBC is here. Then they go, "Okay. So what?"

I told them that the eyes of the world are on World Cup Soccer in Brazil, and so the Freemasons like to hitch a free ride with the viewership. (They still don't get it.)

Then I said that all this TV coverage has been taking digs at traditional Catholics. One of them asked me,

"Don't they have FREEDOM OF RELIGION in Brazil??"

I'm telling you this so you can understand better what we're up against here.
.
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 11, 2014, 02:51:05 PM: .

Sometimes you just want to SCREAM.

(But Matthew doesn't have any smiley for that. :whistleblower: Maybe he never gets frustrated. :scratchchin:)

.
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 11, 2014, 03:44:29 PM: Quote from: Centroamerica
Quote from: Neil Obstat
.
Maybe I could post the last discussion you and I were having on about this. It seems CI might be a more friendly place to discuss it IYKWIM.

.

Sure Neil. Go ahead and post it.

You asked for it, you got it, Toyota. (But the formatting is too time consuming!)

(Lurkers can see the original with formatting at this website:

http://./thread/2775/aparecida-tv-traditionalists-worse-atheists

Word)

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Aparecida TV Traditionalists worse than atheists

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Jul 7, 2014 at 10:40am Telesphorus and Neil Obstat like this.
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Post by fatima13 on Jul 7, 2014 at 10:40am
I would like to present a recent event in Brazil that has scandalized many Catholics. I translated the key part up to the section where the author begins to defend the Motu Proprio. If you go to the link you will see the videos including one of the alleged priest's Mass. What follows after that section is a copy and pasted google translation as I was running out of time and need to focus energy else where. I apologize.

In my opinion, Brazil is suffering more from this crisis than any other American country. The masons have a strong grip on everything in this country. Certainly, the sell out +Rifan does not help when he tells Catholics that they can go to both Masses and everything is okay. ------------Centroamerica

fidespress.com/brasil/tradicionalista-um-catolico-autentico-mas-de-segunda-categoria-diz-tv-aparecida/

Traditionalist: An Authentic Catholic but second class, says TV Aparecida

On June 26, 2014, the TV Aparecida program "Em Frente" received a caller, Vanya Bonatto. After greeting the hosts, the caller asked Fr. Pedro Cunha, a member of the program, and received a rather unfortunate response.

Below you will read the dialogue held at the station with our emphasis and notes in red.

Father Peter, I have a very big doubt..- I have a son and he has become extremely religious, Catholic, minister of the, my son suddenly retorted. I mean he tells me: Mom, I'm Catholic and I will continue to be truly Catholic", it's just that he turned into that kind of Pre-Vatican 2 Catholic, the Traditional one, well.

They go into a chapel because they don't have a church there, they go into a chapel where the priest celebrates with his back to the people, right. My daughter-in-law only goes using a veil and dress or skirt, and they always talk about going to a monastery. [translator note: speaking of monasteries is strange for the Novus Ordo here, outdated. Could the monastery be the monastery of Dom Tomas?] He had never missed a Mass on the network Vida or TV Aparecida, everyday, he was a regular, and today it is different. He tells me: "Mother, I pray the Rosary [15 mysteries] every day! I'm Catholic and I want to take back my religion", but I do not agree and do not know if I am wrong or not.

Up to this point, the caller has not pointed out if her son is a sede vacantist, apostate, or heretical, she has only mentioned his way of "living the faith" and that does not agree- out of ignorance- to the way she does. In this case, the request of the caller was a to clarify if her son was a Catholic because her ignorance and prejudice seems to state otherwise.

Father Pedro asked the host Rodolfo Ferraz, a clear fan of Liberation Theology (condemned by JP2), to respond to the caller. However, he gives a brief introduction: This is the Catholic Church, it is truly Catholic, but the people are very reactionary are they not? Rodolfo chuckles and is interrupted by Denise Procopio, a host of the program that wants to give an example of a situation that she believes is similar:

"Let me just mention something I have here an email here I would like to read (presented as a doubt) except that in this one the mother says her son is an atheist. May I read? Because if you want there is already a correspondence.....

Then, we present the drama of a mother who wants to rekindle the faith in her son....Rodolfo asks Fr. Peter: would you like to say something and then I will speak?

"Look, in reference to this young man [atheist] I have no concern. I am much more concerned with the first question [traditionalist] than with the second. And you can say: Our Father, for the love of God. A person is Catholic and living their faith profoundly. People, religious fundamentalism is dangerous or even more dangerous than atheism. How come? Because religious fundamentalism can lead you to do crazy things. (As history proves chimes in Rodolfo.) Exactly.

About the teen, he's going through a phase. You know what you have to do? Don't argue or try to convince him of anything. You have to be an excellent Catholic, and excellent Christian, in,order to show him the living Gospel, not the spoken Gospel or the written Gospel.

If he gets it, rest assured that when he grows up a little more push the thing and he'll say "Oh my gosh." It's like those people who were Catholic and become evangelicals [surely the program knows about this] who do not want to know about Our Lady, right. Now, let's go back to the other case because I think it's important, concluded the priest.

Fr. Pedro makes the initial conclusion that it is less worrisome to have an atheist son than one who participates in the Traditional Mass because the Traditional Mass is essentially fundamentalist.

Rodolfo: So, in fact, I share the concern of the priest today because there are many groups with fundamentalist bias. I do not, and I know that father does not, saying that this that this is the case with the group to which your son belongs, but tell us what happened? A few years ago (2007), Pope Benedict XVI authorized those well-formed communities to celebrate according to the Old Rite, that is the Rite of the Council of Trent, they could do,it. It was because of the sensitivity of the pope to respect those communities who would like to maintain this way of praying. What ever happened was a proliferation that was actually contrary to what Pope Benedict XVI himself wanted.

Hey, that's not what Benedict said in Summorum Pontificuм. Benedict XVI was emphatic that "permission to celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass of the Mass following the typical edition of the Roman Missal promulgated by John XXIII in 1962 and never abrogated" Rodolfo grabs article 3 of the docuмent which says that religious communities can have it, and says that it is the desire of the pope that only that group can access it. This is totally false. Article 2 states:

[google translation continues the article]

"In Masses celebrated without the people, the any Catholic priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or religious, may use the Roman Missal published by Blessed Pope John XXIII in 1962 or the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970, and offer it every day with the exception of the Easter Triduum. To this conclusion by one or the other Missal, the priest does not need any authorization from the Apostolic See or from his Ordinary . "

Everything that goes beyond those words of Mr. Rodolfo is increased.

The question came handy because even yesterday (25/06) Pope Francisco hosted a group of religious (read Franciscans of the Immaculate) who just want to say Mass as well and received the Pope to tell them: 'No, even if the Church with Benedict XVI has authorized, I want you to ask permission because officially the rite of the Mass is that of Paul VI, the Second Vatican Council, the Church of the people of God where everyone participates. " So, there is a return to that kind of movement that is dangerous and that is not the liturgy or why this group was formed by many older people in Latin or who would like the Pope wanted to observe, so keep praying.

Intellectual dishonesty. There is no public speech of the Holy Father Francisco about it! What there are are speculations of evil people who would love the Pope to say this. If that were true, that would be directed at a speech that IBP has the obligation conferred by His Holiness Benedict XVI, celebrating the old rite exclusively.

It traditionalism by traditionalism. Pra affront to our way of being Church today, as if the wrong part with the people participating, with the priest facing the people. So unfortunately it is not only the celebration of the liturgy, but in a whole mindset that follows and criticizes the Second Vatican Council , which is the spirit in which the Church lives, and is celebrating Thanksgiving this council after 50 years.

Well, as stated earlier, the only son of telespectadora attends Mass in the extraordinary form, was not told anything about the critical missal of Paul VI that is not a work of the council itself, but concomitant to council.

Now comes the most disastrous part of the conversation: Father Pedro proves by A + B that do not even know what is Mass.

Father Pedro Cunha takes the floor:

Look, look Rodolfo, I know you have a call waiting, but I wanted to say something as a priest, I am a priest for 25 years, you've been my Masses, Denise has been there many Masses mine and I celebrate with joy, I celebrate with taste, celebrate with enthusiasm, but I celebrate the people, involving them with their lives and I do not celebrate Mass for me.
E, and I honestly I can not imagine I turn my back on the people and a Mass like? That way and that so? How I'll do it? For the love of God. It is the people of God who is there. I am the presence of Jesus Christ to the people, so I have to embrace the people, being with him, sing to him, smile at him, talk to them and pray with them, because it is God's people, I'm not alone.

He assumes that people do not have "participation" in the Mass of Pius V, poor, confuses the Mass with a little show. Of course the people "interact" in the Missal of Pius V, but not interact, nothing changes. Believe Father Pedro, nobody wakes up early on Sundays to watch their numerozinhos, or to see your beautiful face, since the center of mass is Christ, not the priest Pedro Cunha, nor the people. The Mass is the center of the dialogue between the people and the priest is an invention of Luther.

About priest living c 243_Francis_Ad_Orientam_IMAGEOstas for the people: Dear priest, how can you say something stupid like that? The Mass is the sacrifice of Christ for the people, not the people. The priest celebrates in persona Christi to Father God.

The Mass is the sacrifice of Christ therefore directed to God the Father for the people of God , understand the difference? Alias, Fr. Peter, as fond ofdistort the attitudes of the Pope, why not a little lecture about His Holiness Francisco celebrate "backs" (adopting their language) to the people?

Do you not know that this position is in the missal of Paul VI? Alias, usais the missal in his Masses or just go with pompons to help the joy, zest and enthusiasm?

Since the issue is the new path of the Church, could show us where the missal has the attitudes of the video below?

Note: This video makes clear why their masses are with "joy." ????

Another thing I am afraid, is hiding in a way, it seems, I am judging, perhaps one my sin, right? And I think I am judging myself, but sometimes I have the impression that some of these people hide and use it as a sort of curtain, the same veil, to hide other things, right? And it is not because of it - who am I to say that he saw? - Is a perception that I have, but I got the impression that it is as if to say this: Yes, I do well to realize that no one really who I am.

Soon, masses with pitch ball, as the video above shows the deepest of Father Pedro. ????

Rodolfo takes the word and says:

So, right Father? As I said, the liturgy is not only the rite, and a whole mindset, those gestures, those movements, those ceremonial, is a mindset for life. See what she (the caller) says: That son dropped his community he served as minister of the word, that the son's wife now can only wear a skirt and veil on liturgy is probably a separate church, on one side only the other men just women, ie, goes against the spirit of the council and it was not what Pope Benedict XVI to authorize the Mass of Trent.

One more lie. The Missal of Paul VI is not the work of the council. The Missal of Paul VI was created in the same period, but is the work of Paul VI, not the council, as Sacrosanctum Concilium (Vatican II docuмent that talks about the liturgy) has not sent any time that we took a new Missal!

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Post by Frances on Jul 7, 2014 at 11:04am
Only Brazil? Hardly! My parents (USA) were told by their novus ordo priest that I, too, would be better off returning to the evangelical Protestants than going to a Mass "outlawed by Pope Paul VI in 1969."
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Jul 7, 2014 at 11:04am Frances said:
Only Brazil? Hardly! My parents (USA) were told by their novus ordo priest that I, too, would be better off returning to the evangelical Protestants than going to a Mass "outlawed by Pope Paul VI in 1969."
Dear Francis,

We are talking here about a main stream television channel that all Brazilians are familiar with. The majority of Americans have never heard of Traditional Catholics. Here it is pushed on mainstream television that we are worse than atheist. I should have specified. Also, it is common to see on mainstream television "cowboy" "priest" galloping around at any given time singing rock songs to the Exposed Host while wearing cowboy hats and skin tight jeans. This is mainstream Brazilian television. In a country with the worlds largest Catholic population there is a point to have more Masonic Lodges than Catholic Churches in each town. The churches that are here do not have crucifixes in them. Only the risen Christ and twisted crosses adorn their roofs. Clearly the situation is not comparable with your parents concerned with your religious preference. I could have included more details and for that I apologize.

Centroamerica
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 9:22am
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Jul 7, 2014 at 11:27am fatima13 said:
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Jul 7, 2014 at 11:04am Frances said:
Only Brazil? Hardly! My parents (USA) were told by their novus ordo priest that I, too, would be better off returning to the evangelical Protestants than going to a Mass "outlawed by Pope Paul VI in 1969."
Dear Francis,

We are talking here about a mainstream television channel that all Brazilians are familiar with. The majority of Americans have never heard of Traditional Catholics. Here it is pushed on mainstream television that we are worse than atheist. I should have specified. Also, it is common to see on mainstream television "cowboy" "priest" galloping around at any given time singing rock songs to the Exposed Host while wearing cowboy hats and skin tight jeans. This is mainstream Brazilian television. In a country with the world's largest Catholic population there is a point to have more Masonic Lodges than Catholic Churches in each town. The churches that are here do not have crucifixes in them. Only the risen Christ and twisted crosses adorn their roofs. Clearly the situation is not comparable with your parents concerned with your religious preference. I could have included more details and for that I apologize.

Centroamerica
The details are illuminating.

Please continue, Centroamerica!

.

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Jul 8, 2014 at 9:55am
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 9:55am
.

To clarify, I should point out that I tried to read the OP and I'm totally lost.

It seems you have mixed in your comments without showing a difference in font or format, leaving out close-quote marks and using (parentheses) instead of [brackets], so I don't know if it's you speaking, or the person on the TV program, or someone that person is quoting.

So I'm lost. While there is interesting content there, I don't know who is saying it, so it makes no sense to me.

In my opinion, Brazil is suffering more from this crisis than any other American country. The masons have a strong grip on everything in this country. Certainly, the sell out +Rifan does not help when he tells Catholics that they can go to both Masses and everything is okay. ------------Centroamerica
This part is obviously you speaking, Centroamerica.

I appreciate this message because your opinion matters, since you are an eyewitness to this happening.

~ Brazil suffers more than any other [north or south] American country.
~ Freemasons have a strong grip on everything in Brazil.
~ The sellout +Rifan commits by telling people it's okay for them to assist at Mass in the "extraordinary form" or the "ordinary form" [correct??].

This could be quite valuable information because since Francis is from this part of the world (Argentina is close to Brazil -- I know, it's like saying that a Mexican is like an American or a Canadian is like an American, but even though Brazil speaks Portuguese and Argentina speaks Spanish, in this matter of the Faith, they are highly influential upon each other).

One thing needs to be clarified, and that is, in the USA, when we say "American" we only refer to things regarding citizens of the USA, which technically includes Puerto Rico, but the man on the street is not cognizant of Puerto Rico. It's a pride thing, ignorance mixed with nationalism.

So it would be nice if you kept that in mind, and at least now and then throw in "South-" when you say "America," because otherwise readers here will think you're talking about the 50 States, and "what does Alaska and Hawaii have to do with São Paulo??" (They won't know how to pronounce São Paulo, nor will they know it's in Brazil -- unless they've been watching the World Cup! but most Americans HATE Soccer, so they won't be watching! -- nor will they realize that São Paulo is the largest city in Brazil, or that Brazil is bigger than Texas.)

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Jul 8, 2014 at 10:15am
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 10:15am
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Actually, it looks like Brazil is larger than the contiguous United States combined.

Brazil: 8,511,965 sq. Km. 3,286,482sq.mi.

Contiguous USA: 8,103,868 sq. Km. 3,114,744 sq. mi.

(And Alaska is twice the area of Texas!)

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Jul 8, 2014 at 10:31am
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 10:31am
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What is the meaning of this:

Everything that goes beyond those words of Mr. Rodolfo is increased.

~ Is "Mr. Rodolfo" the same person as Fr. Rodolfo, or is Fr's brother there too, or whatever?
~ What does "everything" refer to: words spoken, videos shown, statistics quoted, caller's questions?
~ What do you mean by, "goes beyond those words" - which words are "those words?"
~ In what way does "everything" somehow "go beyond those words?" Can you give an example?
~ How is "everything" increased? Is "everything" somehow larger, or longer, or wider or more numerous, or does "everything" only take more time? (In what way does "everything" take time?)

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Jul 8, 2014 at 10:44am
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 10:44am
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The next sentence is equally confusing:
The question came handy because even yesterday (25/06) Pope Francisco hosted a group of religious (read Franciscans of the Immaculate) who just want to say Mass as well and received the Pope to tell them:
How does a question come handy? I'm not sure what "came handy" means. Is this the same as "came in handy?"

Are the parenthetical words, "(read Franciscans of the Immaculate)," your words, or are they someone else's words? (If they're yours, they would be more clearly read as such, if you only had used brackets and a colon: "[read: Franciscans of the Immaculate].")

By "say Mass as well," is it meant to convey they want to say Mass in a manner equally well as someone else, or is it that they want to say Mass instead of not saying Mass, or, is it that they want to have the permission to participate in a TLM somewhere? If so, then where would they go for the TLM?

By "received the Pope to tell them," is this you talking or the TV program? Did the group receive the Pope in order to tell someone else something? Or, did the group receive the Pope in order for the Pope to tell them something? Or, was the group of religious disappointed after receiving the Pope because what they had hoped to hear from him they did not hear, but instead they heard him say something quite different from what they had hoped that he would say?

.

Last Edit: Jul 8, 2014 at 10:51am by Neil Obstat
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Jul 8, 2014 at 10:57am
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 10:57am
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I hope you don't think I'm demanding too much precision.

I'm thinking how am I going to talk about this to anyone when I can't make heads or tails out of what you're saying. Maybe it means this, maybe it means that. I would prefer to have a SOLID basis in what I'm saying, because this is too important of a story to get it all wrong.

I am willing to help you if you will let me. I would like to put this whole thing into a form that an American can read and then I'll just sit back and watch his jaw drop.

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Jul 8, 2014 at 11:57am PereJoseph and Neil Obstat like this.
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Post by Telesphorus on Jul 8, 2014 at 11:57am
"Look, in reference to this young man [atheist] I have no concern. I am much more concerned with the first question [traditionalist] than with the second. And you can say: Our Father, for the love of God. A person is Catholic and living their faith profoundly. People, religious fundamentalism is dangerous or even more dangerous than atheism. How come? Because religious fundamentalism can lead you to do crazy things. (As history proves chimes in Rodolfo.) Exactly.

Anyone who considers being "fundamentalist" worse than being an atheist has lost the Faith. That is the only reason you would believe that. As though atheism doesn't lead people to do crazy things?

People who line up with liberals while claiming the name of Catholic, and work to persecute those who are really Catholics, are truly the worst enemies of the religion, and they maintain the nominal identity of the religion out of convenience, and often it is not just about appearances and accommodation - those people don't go on and on about religion. It's a about Marxist subversion of Faith.
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Jul 8, 2014 at 2:23pm
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 2:23pm
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Jul 7, 2014 at 11:27am fatima13 said:
Frances Avatar
Jul 7, 2014 at 11:04am Frances said:
Only Brazil? Hardly! My parents (USA) were told by their novus ordo priest that I, too, would be better off returning to the evangelical Protestants than going to a Mass "outlawed by Pope Paul VI in 1969."
Dear Francis,

We are talking here about a main stream television channel that all Brazilians are familiar with. The majority of Americans have never heard of Traditional Catholics. Here it is pushed on mainstream television that we are worse than atheist.

Another thing: The MSM in America would NEVER say that Traditional Catholics are "worse than atheists" for two reasons: the first you already mentioned, the majority of Americans are unaware that Trad Caths exist (they only know about "fundamentalists" but that can be for any religion), but the second is that the MSM in America would never say something that implies there is anything wrong with atheism. That would be "uncharitable," or "divisive," or "extremist."

I can give you a hit list of websites where NovusOrdo Catholics bow and scrape to atheists as if they have some kind of awesomeness that must be revered at all costs -- sort of like what JPII did, actually.

I should have specified. Also, it is common to see on mainstream television "cowboy" "priest" galloping around at any given time singing rock songs to the Exposed Host while wearing cowboy hats and skin tight jeans. This is mainstream Brazilian television.
The image you describe here makes no sense. It is too weird for me to imagine what this looks like. Maybe you could post some links to video clips to exemplify this. Americans would not know what you're talking about. I don't think we ever had such an image in the Westerns (movies), and to show it now would be a first. Please provide some YouTube links so we can embed them here for all to see. If I can't show someone a clip they won't believe I did not MAKE THIS UP --- must be another "Internet rumour," you know?

In a country with the world's largest Catholic population, there is a point to have more Masonic Lodges than Catholic Churches in each town. The churches that are here do not have crucifixes in them. Only the risen Christ and twisted crosses adorn their roofs.

A) Americans would have no idea that Brazil has "the world's largest Catholic population." But actually, even if you were to tell them they'd say, "So what?"

B) For those Americans who would be interested in this statistic (they might ask for a number and for the second largest number and its country, too -- "Where would that be, Canada?"), having more Masonic Lodges than Catholic churches may not be all that impressive, sad to say. But I appreciate the factoid, nonetheless!

C) This churches with no crucifixes thingy is similarly not going to be very impressive because it's also going on in the USA -- progressive bishops are tearing out the old and installing the new. Where these old crucifixes are going is a good question -- are they being stockpiled and burned or something??

D) The "twisted crosses" with "risen Christ" should be docuмented. Is there any website that has some photos? If it is that common there should be some pictures somewhere, no??

Clearly the situation is not comparable with your parents concerned with your religious preference. I could have included more details and for that I apologize.

Centroamerica
This is an important observation -- what's going on in Brazil, as you describe, is far worse than someone's parents being opposed to their child's reversion to Traditional Catholicism.

.
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Jul 8, 2014 at 2:42pm
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 2:42pm
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This is a wonderful insight, Telesphorus. I missed this altogether.

But then, even now, I'm not sure who is talking here and whose ideas these are. Let me show you some of the inherent confusion I'm groping with:

Should the punctuation here be like this: And you can say, the "Our Father," for the love of God.
Or, And you can say, "Our Father," or "for the love of God."

Because this is nonsense: "And you can say: Our Father, for the love of God. A person is Catholic and living their faith profoundly."

Example: "Our Father, for the love of God. Someone who says this shows that he's Catholic and living his faith profoundly. (Really? All I have to do is say "Our Father, for the love of God" and I show how profoundly I'm living my Catholic faith?)

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Jul 8, 2014 at 11:57am Telesphorus said:
"Look, in reference to this young man [atheist] I have no concern. I am much more concerned with the first question [traditionalist] than with the second. And you can say: Our Father, for the love of God. A person is Catholic and living their faith profoundly.

People, religious fundamentalism is dangerous or even more dangerous than atheism. How come? Because religious fundamentalism can lead you to do crazy things. ("As history proves," chimes in Rodolfo.) Exactly.
Anyone who considers being "fundamentalist" worse than being an atheist has lost the Faith. That is the only reason you would believe that. As though atheism doesn't lead people to do crazy things?

Anyone who adheres to atheism has ALREADY done a crazy thing -- it has only been in the past few hundred years that atheism has become tolerable as an ideology because since the dawn of history the very notion of the world existing without God was considered utter insanity. If you begin with sheer intellectual lunacy, where do you suppose you'll end up, but with more lunacy?

People who line up with liberals while claiming the name of Catholic, and work to persecute those who are really Catholics, are truly the worst enemies of the religion, and they maintain the nominal identity of the religion out of convenience, and often it is not just about appearances and accommodation - those people don't go on and on about religion. It's a about Marxist subversion of Faith.
This thing you describe, Tele, is running rampant in the USA. The MSM has raised "fundamentalism" to a new slang word that outstrips just about any insult going. I know feeble Catholics in their 80's who are entirely convinced that anyone who prays the daily Rosary is a freaking extremist. But they have no qualms about atheists.

This misdirected reverence for atheism has taken deep root in America, and JPII observed it here and made it official.

When you say this: "People who line up with liberals while claiming the name of Catholic, and work to persecute those who are really Catholics, are truly the worst enemies of the religion,.." you're referring to Pope Paul VI!!!

And by extension, you're referring to everyone who stepped into line behind his BAD COMMANDS (FROM THE DEVIL), working to persecute those who are really Catholics.

And this: "..and they maintain the nominal identity of the religion out of convenience, and often it is not just about appearances and accommodation - those people don't go on and on about religion. It's a about Marxist subversion of Faith," it's about secularization of the spiritual, materialization of the other-worldly, banalization of the truth of God, the LEAVEN OF THE PHARISEES.

That has been the Freemasonic agenda all along, based in тαℓмυdism, which is a FALSE RELIGION.

.
Last Edit: Jul 8, 2014 at 3:08pm by Neil Obstat
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Jul 8, 2014 at 2:48pm PereJoseph and Neil Obstat like this.
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Post by Telesphorus on Jul 8, 2014 at 2:48pm
Fundamentalist is a codeword for "believer" as opposed to maintaining a sentimental and masonic view of religion. Liberal Catholics start out by telling children and simpler folk that "fundamentalists are Bible protestants who think the world is only 6000 years old" - but among most "educated" people today it means actually believing.
Last Edit: Jul 8, 2014 at 7:19pm by Telesphorus
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 3:03pm
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Jul 8, 2014 at 2:48pm Telesphorus said:
Fundamentalist is a codeword for "believer" as opposed to maintaining a sentimental and masonic view of religion. Liberal Catholics start out by telling children and simpler folk that "fundamentalists are Bible protestants who think the world is only 6000 years old - but among most "educated" people today it means actually believing.

Maybe it's time we start using "fundamentalist Freemason" -- it has an easy sound to it.

Freemasonic fundamentalism

Fundamentalist Mason

Mason fundamentalist

Fundamasonic, fundamason, fundafreemason, Freemasonfundies

Two can play this game.
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Jul 8, 2014 at 4:28pm
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Post by fatima13 on Jul 8, 2014 at 4:28pm
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Jul 8, 2014 at 9:55am ~~Neil Obstat~~ [fatima 13] said:
Sorry Neil for not being clearer. As I had stated, I didn't have time to translate the whole thing. I had a class to teach shortly after. I tried to change a few wrong terms and structures from the google translation that followed but didn't get to all of it.

The part in red is the comment from the blog that posted the original Portuguese article. These were their comments. They also didn't use proper quotation marks so when I translated I didn't put the correct punctuation. I think we can say that was the blog article that should've used quotation marks to make their article clearer. I tried to write in red where they were making their comments as they had stated. Actually, in the original article, all of their comments weren't in red as they had claimed they would be. So it was a bit confusing. I understand. I apologize for their poor communications.

This ordeal actually received a lot of attention here. I was surprised. I went to their Facebook page and there were something like a couple hundred Brazilians denouncing them as modernist impostors. I was proud of the Brazilians to see that.

Up to where the author begins to defend the Motu Proprio is where I left off with the google translation. Before that, all that appears in red are comments from the author of the blog.

I hope oped that clears it up a little for you.

This is was actually a big deal here and many Brazilians from many states were upset with the program.

Quote from: Neil Obstat

To clarify, I should point out that I tried to read the OP and I'm totally lost.

It seems you have mixed in your comments without showing a difference in font or format, leaving out close-quote marks and using (parentheses) instead of [brackets], so I don't know if it's you speaking, or the person on the TV program, or someone that person is quoting.

So I'm lost. While there is interesting content there, I don't know who is saying it, so it makes no sense to me.

In my opinion, Brazil is suffering more from this crisis than any other American country. The masons have a strong grip on everything in this country. Certainly, the sell out +Rifan does not help when he tells Catholics that they can go to both Masses and everything is okay. ------------Centroamerica
This part is obviously you speaking, Centroamerica.

I appreciate this message because your opinion matters, since you are an eyewitness to this happening.

~ Brazil suffers more than any other [north or south] American country.
~ Freemasons have a strong grip on everything in Brazil.
~ The sellout +Rifan commits by telling people it's okay for them to assist at Mass in the "extraordinary form" or the "ordinary form" [correct??].

This could be quite valuable information because since Francis is from this part of the world (Argentina is close to Brazil -- I know, it's like saying that a Mexican is like an American or a Canadian is like an American, but even though Brazil speaks Portuguese and Argentina speaks Spanish, in this matter of the Faith, they are highly influential upon each other).

One thing needs to be clarified, and that is, in the USA, when we say "American" we only refer to things regarding citizens of the USA, which technically includes Puerto Rico, but the man on the street is not cognizant of Puerto Rico. It's a pride thing, ignorance mixed with nationalism.

So it would be nice if you kept that in mind, and at least now and then throw in "South-" when you say "America," because otherwise readers here will think you're talking about the 50 States, and "what does Alaska and Hawaii have to do with São Paulo??" (They won't know how to pronounce São Paulo, nor will they know it's in Brazil -- unless they've been watching the World Cup! but most Americans HATE Soccer, so they won't be watching! -- nor will they realize that São Paulo is the largest city in Brazil, or that Brazil is bigger than Texas.)

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Jul 8, 2014 at 4:32pm
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Post by fatima13 on Jul 8, 2014 at 4:32pm
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Jul 8, 2014 at 4:28pm fatima13 said:
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Jul 8, 2014 at 9:55am Neil Obstat said:
Sorry Neil for not being clearer. As I had stated, I didn't have time to translate the whole thing. I had a class to teach shortly after. I tried to change a few wrong terms and structures from the google translation that followed but didn't get to all of it.

The part in red is the comment from the blog that posted the original Portuguese article. These were their comments. They also didn't use proper quotation marks so when I translated I didn't put the correct punctuation. I think we can say that was the blog article that should've used quotation marks to make their article clearer. I tried to write in red where they were making their comments as they had stated. Actually, in the original article, all of their comments weren't in red as they had claimed they would be. So it was a bit confusing. I understand. I apologize for their poor communications.

This ordeal actually received a lot of attention here. I was surprised. I went to their Facebook page and there were something like a couple hundred Brazilians denouncing them as modernist impostors. I was proud of the Brazilians to see that.

Up to where the author begins to defend the Motu Proprio is where I left off with the google translation. Before that, all that appears in red are comments from the author of the blog.

I hope oped that clears it up a little for you.

This is was actually a big deal here and many Brazilians from many states were upset with the program.

To clarify, I should point out that I tried to read the OP and I'm totally lost.

It seems you have mixed in your comments without showing a difference in font or format, leaving out close-quote marks and using (parentheses) instead of [brackets], so I don't know if it's you speaking, or the person on the TV program, or someone that person is quoting.

So I'm lost. While there is interesting content there, I don't know who is saying it, so it makes no sense to me.

This part is obviously you speaking, Centroamerica.

I appreciate this message because your opinion matters, since you are an eyewitness to this happening.

~ Brazil suffers more than any other [north or south] American country.
~ Freemasons have a strong grip on everything in Brazil.
~ The sellout +Rifan commits by telling people it's okay for them to assist at Mass in the "extraordinary form" or the "ordinary form" [correct??].

This could be quite valuable information because since Francis is from this part of the world (Argentina is close to Brazil -- I know, it's like saying that a Mexican is like an American or a Canadian is like an American, but even though Brazil speaks Portuguese and Argentina speaks Spanish, in this matter of the Faith, they are highly influential upon each other).

One thing needs to be clarified, and that is, in the USA, when we say "American" we only refer to things regarding citizens of the USA, which technically includes Puerto Rico, but the man on the street is not cognizant of Puerto Rico. It's a pride thing, ignorance mixed with nationalism.

So it would be nice if you kept that in mind, and at least now and then throw in "South-" when you say "America," because otherwise readers here will think you're talking about the 50 States, and "what does Alaska and Hawaii have to do with São Paulo??" (They won't know how to pronounce São Paulo, nor will they know it's in Brazil -- unless they've been watching the World Cup! but most Americans HATE Soccer, so they won't be watching! -- nor will they realize that São Paulo is the largest city in Brazil, or that Brazil is bigger than Texas.)

Sorry the red was only used on a different forum. Sorry for the confusion. I'll be more precise next time. The comment you asked should say that Francis received the Franciscans of the Immaculate, not that they received him. :/

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Jul 8, 2014 at 4:44pm
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Post by fatima13 on Jul 8, 2014 at 4:44pm
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Jul 8, 2014 at 10:31am Neil Obstat said:
.

What is the meaning of this:

Everything that goes beyond those words of Mr. Rodolfo is increased.
~ Is "Mr. Rodolfo" the same person as Fr. Rodolfo, or is Fr's brother there too, or whatever?
~ What does "everything" refer to: words spoken, videos shown, statistics quoted, caller's questions?
~ What do you mean by, "goes beyond those words" - which words are "those words?"
~ In what way does "everything" somehow "go beyond those words?" Can you give an example?
~ How is "everything" increased? Is "everything" somehow larger, or longer, or wider or more numerous, or does "everything" only take more time? (In what way does "everything" take time?)

.

Centroamerica here begins:

No. Sorry there was only one alleged priest. "Padre" Pedro. Mr. Rodolfo is the person in the video wearing the black "Liberation theology" ring, a simple laymen.

The correct translation of that line would've said:

"Anything more than that that would've been said are the words of Mr. Rodolfo."

The implication of the author here is that Mr. Rodolfo interpreted incorrectly the Summorum Pontificuм. Remember that it was at this point in the post that the google translation starts.

Last Edit: Jul 8, 2014 at 4:45pm by fatima13
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Jul 8, 2014 at 4:47pm
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Post by fatima13 on Jul 8, 2014 at 4:47pm
Ugh. Not being able to quote on this forum.
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Post by fatima13 on Jul 8, 2014 at 4:49pm
Any of my personal comments said ......Centroamerica or were in brackets [].
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Jul 9, 2014 at 1:09am
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 9, 2014 at 1:09am
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Jul 7, 2014 at 10:40am fatima13 said:

Let's take this out of the quote boxes since you're having a hard time with those.

I'll put my comments in blue.

I would like to present a recent event in Brazil that has scandalized many Catholics. I translated the key part up to the section where the author begins to defend the Motu Proprio. If you go to the link you will see the videos including one of the alleged priest's Mass. What follows after that section is a copy and pasted google translation as I was running out of time and need to focus energy else where. I apologize.

In my opinion, Brazil is suffering more from this crisis than any other American country. The masons have a strong grip on everything in this country. Certainly, the sell out [of] +Rifan does not help when he tells Catholics that they can go to both Masses and everything is okay. ------------Centroamerica

By "both Masses" are you referring to Indult and SSPX, or TLM and NovusOrdo?

fidespress.com/brasil/tradicionalista-um-catolico-autentico-mas-de-segunda-categoria-diz-tv-aparecida/

Traditionalist: An Authentic Catholic but second class, says TV Aparecida

On June 26, 2014, the TV Aparecida program "Em Frente" received a caller, Vanya Bonatto. After greeting the hosts, the caller asked Fr. Pedro Cunha, a member of the program, and received a rather unfortunate response.

Below you will read the dialogue held at the station with our emphasis and notes in red.

Father Peter, I have a very big doubt..- I have a son and he has become extremely religious, Catholic, minister of the, my son suddenly retorted. I mean he tells me: "Mom, I'm Catholic and I will continue to be truly Catholic", it's just that he turned into that kind of Pre-Vatican 2 Catholic, the Traditional one, well.

They go into a chapel because they don't have a church there, they go into a chapel where the priest celebrates with his back to the people, right. My daughter-in-law only goes using a veil and dress or skirt, and they always talk about going to a monastery. [translator note: speaking of monasteries is strange for the Novus Ordo here, outdated. Could the monastery be the monastery of Dom Tomas?] He had never missed a Mass on the network Vida or TV Aparecida, everyday, he was a regular, and today it is different. He tells me: "Mother, I pray the Rosary [15 mysteries] every day! I'm Catholic and I want to take back my religion", but I do not agree and do not know if I am wrong or not.

So here is a convert to Traditional Catholicism through watching regularly a televised Mass on Aparecida?

Up to this point, the caller has not pointed out if her son is a sede vacantist, apostate, or heretical, she has only mentioned his way of "living the faith" and that does not agree- out of ignorance- to the way she does. In this case, the request of the caller was a to clarify if her son was a Catholic because her ignorance and prejudice seems to state otherwise.

This appears to be your comments but if it isn't, then someone else is commenting -- who is that???

Father Pedro asked the host Rodolfo Ferraz, a clear fan of Liberation Theology (condemned by JP2), to respond to the caller. However, he gives a brief introduction: This is the Catholic Church, it is truly Catholic, but the people are very reactionary are they not? Rodolfo chuckles and is interrupted by Denise Procopio, a host of the program that wants to give an example of a situation that she believes is similar:

So Fr. Pedro asked Rodolfo to respond to the caller, but Procopio interrupts, by an unidentified narrator -- that's 5 people involved so far, not including you, correct?

"Let me just mention something I have here an email here I would like to read (presented as a doubt) except that in this one the mother says her son is an atheist. May I read? Because if you want there is already a correspondence.....

Notice no closed-quotes here, so is the quote finished, or is this next paragraph the unidentified narrator again? And the following paragraph -- is that back to Procopio speaking or what?

Then, we present the drama of a mother who wants to rekindle the faith in her son....Rodolfo asks Fr. Peter: would you like to say something and then I will speak?

"Look, in reference to this young man [atheist] I have no concern. I am much more concerned with the first question [traditionalist] than with the second. And you can say: Our Father, for the love of God. A person is Catholic and living their faith profoundly. People, religious fundamentalism is dangerous or even more dangerous than atheism. How come? Because religious fundamentalism can lead you to do crazy things. (As history proves chimes in Rodolfo.) Exactly.

How many people were speaking in this past paragraph? Two, or three or four? Who is saying what? We should be saying Freemasonic fundamentalism -- that will rattle their cage!

About the teen, he's going through a phase. You know what you have to do? Don't argue or try to convince him of anything. You have to be an excellent Catholic, and excellent Christian, in order to show him the living Gospel, not the spoken Gospel or the written Gospel.

If he gets it, rest assured that when he grows up a little more push the thing and he'll say "Oh my gosh." It's like those people who were Catholic and become evangelicals [surely the program knows about this] who do not want to know about Our Lady, right. Now, let's go back to the other case because I think it's important, concluded the priest.

So, there were supposed to be quotation marks closing before "...concluded the priest?" If so, where did the quote start, at "Now, let's go back...?" Or, earlier? Did the priest (Fr. Pedro) speak this whole paragraph? If not, who else was speaking, and what words did they say?

Fr. Pedro makes the initial conclusion that it is less worrisome to have an atheist son than one who participates in the Traditional Mass because the Traditional Mass is essentially fundamentalist.

So that was the unidentified narrator, correct?

Rodolfo: So, in fact, I share the concern of the priest today because there are many groups with fundamentalist bias. I do not, and I know that father does not, [I do not, and father does not WHAT??? Or, is "the priest" someone other than Fr. Pedro? There was a Fr. Peter earlier -- is that the same person as Fr. Pedro?] saying that this that this is the case with the group to which your son belongs, but tell us what happened? A few years ago (2007), Pope Benedict XVI authorized those well-formed communities to celebrate according to the Old Rite, that is the Rite of the Council of Trent, they could do it. It was because of the sensitivity of the pope to respect those communities who would like to maintain this way of praying. What ever happened was a proliferation that was actually contrary to what Pope Benedict XVI himself wanted.

No pastor of ANY RANK (including the pope) ever has had or ever WILL have the authority to forbid any priest anywhere in the world from offering the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass that has been in use from time immemorial, and which Pope St. Pius V referred to in Quo Primum. So what Benedict XVI wanted or didn't want is of NO INTEREST to anyone regarding this Mass. His "authorization" is a DEAD LETTER and of no concern to anyone. He had no power to claim that his "permission" is necessary for a priest to offer this Mass.

Now, is the following some OTHER narrator, because you said it isn't you, Centroamerica.

Hey, that's not what Benedict said in Summorum Pontificuм. Benedict XVI was emphatic that "permission to celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass of the Mass following the typical edition of the Roman Missal promulgated by John XXIII in 1962 and never abrogated" [Note: period missing.] Rodolfo grabs article 3 of the docuмent which says that religious communities can have it, and says that it is the desire of the pope that only that group can access it. This is totally false. Article 2 states:

[google translation continues the article] So this is where you gave up translating, Centroamerica?

"In Masses celebrated without the people, the any Catholic priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or religious, may use the Roman Missal published by Blessed Pope John XXIII in 1962 or the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970, and offer it every day with the exception of the Easter Triduum. To this conclusion by one or the other Missal, the priest does not need any authorization from the Apostolic See or from his Ordinary . "

Everything that goes beyond those words of Mr. Rodolfo is increased.

Here you have said that this should have been better saying:
The correct translation of that line would've said: "Anything more than that that would've been said are the words of Mr. Rodolfo."

The implication of the author here is that Mr. Rodolfo interpreted incorrectly the Summorum Pontificuм. Remember that it was at this point in the post that the google translation starts.

The question came handy because even yesterday (25/06) Pope Francisco hosted a group of religious (read Franciscans of the Immaculate) who just want to say Mass as well and received the Pope to tell them: 'No, even if the Church with Benedict XVI has authorized, I want you to ask permission because officially the rite of the Mass is that of Paul VI, the Second Vatican Council, the Church of the people of God where everyone participates." So, there is a return to that kind of movement that is dangerous and that is not the liturgy or why this group was formed by many older people in Latin or who would like the Pope wanted to observe, so keep praying.

This entire paragraph is meaningless to me, ^ I have already asked several questions about it in my previous post.

Intellectual dishonesty. There is no public speech of the Holy Father Francisco about it! What there are are speculations of evil people who would love the Pope to say this. If that were true, that would be directed at a speech that IBP has the obligation conferred by His Holiness Benedict XVI, celebrating the old rite exclusively.

It traditionalism by traditionalism. Pra affront to our way of being Church today, as if the wrong part with the people participating, with the priest facing the people. So unfortunately it is not only the celebration of the liturgy, but in a whole mindset that follows and criticizes the Second Vatican Council, which is the spirit in which the Church lives, and is celebrating Thanksgiving this council after 50 years.

So the Church abides in the unclean spirit of Vatican II, does it? I don't think so. That is where the Church does NOT abide, actually. The unclean spirit of Vatican II defines where the Church is NOT! THIS GUY HAS IT BACKWARDS.

Well, as stated earlier, the only son of telespectadora attends Mass in the extraordinary form, was not told anything about the critical missal of Paul VI that is not a work of the council itself, but concomitant to council.

Who, pray tell, is "telespectadora?"

Now comes the most disastrous part of the conversation: Father Pedro proves by A + B that do [you mean, "he does not?"] not even know what is Mass.

Father Pedro Cunha takes the floor:

Look, look Rodolfo, I know you have a call waiting, but I wanted to say something as a priest, I am a priest for 25 years, you've been my Masses, Denise has been there many Masses mine and I celebrate with joy, I celebrate with taste, celebrate with enthusiasm, but I celebrate the people, involving them with their lives and I do not celebrate Mass for me.

He doesn't celebrate Mass, then, he celebrates the people. He said so, right here.

E, and I honestly I can not imagine I turn my back on the people and a Mass like? That way and that so? How I'll do it? For the love of God. It is the people of God who is there. I am the presence of Jesus Christ to the people, so I have to embrace the people, being with him, sing to him, smile at him, talk to them and pray with them, because it is God's people, I'm not alone.

So what does he do when there are no people who show up? Stand there facing empty seats like an idiot?

He assumes that people do not have "participation" in the Mass of Pius V, poor, confuses the Mass with a little show. Of course the people "interact" in the Missal of Pius V, but not interact, nothing changes. Believe Father Pedro, nobody wakes up early on Sundays to watch their numerozinhos, or to see your beautiful face, since the center of mass is Christ, not the priest Pedro Cunha, nor the people. The Mass is the center of the dialogue between the people and the priest is an invention of Luther.

About priest living c 243_Francis_Ad_Orientam_IMAGEOstas for the people: Dear priest, how can you say something stupid like that? The Mass is the sacrifice of Christ for the people, not the people. The priest celebrates in persona Christi to Father God.

The phrase "Father God" is what the Mormons say. Watch out! Catholics say God the Father!

The Mass is the sacrifice of Christ therefore directed to God the Father for the people of God, understand the difference? Alias, Fr. Peter, as fond of distort the attitudes of the Pope, why not a little lecture about His Holiness Francisco celebrate "backs" (adopting their language) to the people?

Do you not know that this position is in the missal of Paul VI? Alias, usais the missal in his Masses or just go with pompons to help the joy, zest and enthusiasm?

Since the issue is the new path of the Church, could show us where the missal has the attitudes of the video below?

Note: This video makes clear why their masses are with "joy." ????

Another thing I am afraid, is hiding in a way, it seems, I am judging, perhaps one my sin, right? And I think I am judging myself, but sometimes I have the impression that some of these people hide and use it as a sort of curtain, the same veil, to hide other things, right? And it is not because of it - who am I to say that he saw? - Is a perception that I have, but I got the impression that it is as if to say this: Yes, I do well to realize that no one really who I am.

Soon, masses with pitch ball, as the video above shows the deepest of Father Pedro. ????

Rodolfo takes the word and says:

So, right Father? As I said, the liturgy is not only the rite, and a whole mindset, those gestures, those movements, those ceremonial, is a mindset for life. See what she (the caller) says: That son dropped his community he served as minister of the word, that the son's wife now can only wear a skirt and veil on liturgy is probably a separate church, on one side only the other men just women, ie, goes against the spirit of the council and it was not what Pope Benedict XVI to authorize the Mass of Trent.

Again, Trent does not need Benedict XVI or any other pope to 'authorize' it.

One more lie. The Missal of Paul VI is not the work of the council. The Missal of Paul VI was created in the same period, but is the work of Paul VI, not the council, as Sacrosanctum Concilium (Vatican II docuмent that talks about the liturgy) has not sent any time that we took a new Missal!

SC has not sent any time that we took a new missal? Huh?

Quote from: If you want to get a good quick view, see what this post
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Jul 9, 2014 at 1:17pm
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Post by fatima13 on Jul 9, 2014 at 1:17pm
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Jul 9, 2014 at 1:09am Neil Obstat said:
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Jul 7, 2014 at 10:40am fatima13 said:
Let's take this out of the quote boxes since you're having a hard time with those.

I'll put my comments in blue. Ok mine will be in this color. My iPad makes the quotes on this forum confusing. Thanks for your patience.

I would like to present a recent event in Brazil that has scandalized many Catholics. I translated the key part up to the section where the author begins to defend the Motu Proprio. If you go to the link you will see the videos including one of the alleged priest's Mass. What follows after that section is a copy and pasted google translation as I was running out of time and need to focus energy else where. I apologize.

In my opinion, Brazil is suffering more from this crisis than any other American country. The masons have a strong grip on everything in this country. Certainly, the sell out [of] +Rifan does not help when he tells Catholics that they can go to both Masses and everything is okay. ------------Centroamerica

By "both Masses" are you referring to Indult and SSPX, or TLM and NovusOrdo?

+Rifan shamelessly and openly tells all Catholics that they can go to the Novus Ordo and his Insult Masses. [ugh pink! well it works.] Keep in mind that the dioceses are in open rebellion to Rome and refuse to change the words of the consecration back to "for many". Therefore, there are many scandals involved with this Modernist attitude of traitor +Rifan.

fidespress.com/brasil/tradicionalista-um-catolico-autentico-mas-de-segunda-categoria-diz-tv-aparecida/

Traditionalist: An Authentic Catholic but second class, says TV Aparecida

On June 26, 2014, the TV Aparecida program "Em Frente" received a caller, Vanya Bonatto. After greeting the hosts, the caller asked Fr. Pedro Cunha, a member of the program, and received a rather unfortunate response.

Below you will read the dialogue held at the station with our emphasis and notes in red.

Father Peter, I have a very big doubt..- I have a son and he has become extremely religious, Catholic, minister of the, my son suddenly retorted. I mean he tells me: "Mom, I'm Catholic and I will continue to be truly Catholic", it's just that he turned into that kind of Pre-Vatican 2 Catholic, the Traditional one, well.

They go into a chapel because they don't have a church there, they go into a chapel where the priest celebrates with his back to the people, right. My daughter-in-law only goes using a veil and dress or skirt, and they always talk about going to a monastery. [translator note: speaking of monasteries is strange for the Novus Ordo here, outdated. Could the monastery be the monastery of Dom Tomas?] He had never missed a Mass on the network Vida or TV Aparecida, everyday, he was a regular, and today it is different. He tells me: "Mother, I pray the Rosary [15 mysteries] every day! I'm Catholic and I want to take back my religion", but I do not agree and do not know if I am wrong or not.

So here is a convert to Traditional Catholicism through watching regularly a televised Mass on Aparecida?

Yeah, well this is what his mother claims. Remember that many people are finding Traditional Catholicism after being
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Capt McQuigg on July 11, 2014, 04:05:04 PM: Quote from: Neil Obstat
.

Sometimes you just want to SCREAM.

(But Matthew doesn't have any smiley for that. :whistleblower: Maybe he never gets frustrated. :scratchchin:)

.

Use one of these smiley faces for frustration:

:facepalm:

:argue:

:smash-pc:

:really-mad2:

:cussing:

:fryingpan:

:mad:
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Centroamerica on July 11, 2014, 05:01:46 PM: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Aparecida
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 12, 2014, 10:18:28 PM: Quote from: Centroamerica

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_Aparecida

A most edifying short article!

Quote

Subsequent to the pontifical coronation of 1904, several favours were bestowed by the Holy See upon the Brazilian devotion to Our Lady of Aparecida, including the grant of a proper office and Mass for her feast day.

Could you perhaps obtain a copy of this Mass? I've never heard of it. Please see if you can get the Latin version, from which the English could be obtained if you don't have any standard English translation. I'm most interested in the Collect, Secret and Postcommunion, but the Introit, Epistle, Gradual, (Sequence, Tract, if any), Gospel, Preface (probably Feasts of Our Lady), and Communion are also of interest.

My Liber Usualis has no Chant for "Nossa Senhora da Conceição Apparecida."[sic] It has 17 High Mass versions for the various Feasts of Our Lady, two of which are Immaculate Conception and the Octave thereof, but neither one mentions October 12th or "Apparecida" (or Aparecida).

Is there a Portuguese or Brazilian version of the Liber that has the music for this Mass???

.
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 12, 2014, 10:41:42 PM: Quote from: Capt McQuigg
Quote from: Neil Obstat
.

Sometimes you just want to SCREAM.

(But Matthew doesn't have any smiley for that. :whistleblower: Maybe he never gets frustrated. :scratchchin:)

.

Use one of these smiley faces for frustration:

:facepalm:

:argue:

:smash-pc:

:really-mad2:

:cussing:

:fryingpan:

:mad:

Sorry, but those don't meet up with what I have in mind.

:facepalm: - It wasn't quiet incredulity

:argue: - It wasn't arguing with someone

:smash-pc: - It wasn't frustration with my computer

:really-mad2: - It wasn't an "anger management" problem

:cussing: - I don't use profanity (why this smiley is even here at all is a good question)

:fryingpan: - I don't practice abusive violence on anyone

:mad: - It's not anger or hormones that is to blame

.
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 12, 2014, 11:06:27 PM: .

It would seem from all concerned that the patronage of Our Lady in Brazil is the principal obstacle to Freemasonic influence over the whole country. The spontaneous uprising of the faithful in Brazil against any incursion directed at attacking their faith is evidence of Our Lady's protection of these same faithful.

The second half of the article is most instructive (the rest of this post is from the Wikipedia article):

The image

A popular local tale claims that the clay statue was imported from Portugal while others cite that the statue was made by Frei Agostinho de Jesus, a monk from São Paulo known for crafting artistic sacred images in clay. The small statue is less than three feet tall.[3][8] The image was made around 1650, and must have been underwater for years, since it lost its original polychromy.[6]

The image is dark brown in color and covered by a stiff dark blue robe of richly embroidered thick cloth with golden clasps. The statue wears an imperial crown which was added in 1904.[6]

First patronage

At the written request of Emperor Pedro I of Brazil, Pope Leo XII declared Saint Peter of Alcantara the "Patron of Brazil" on 31 May 1826. The ruler of Brazil at that time, Pedro I (born Prince Pedro de Alcantara), was named after Saint Peter of Alcantara and therefore was petitioned to the Pope named after the Franciscan saint.[9][10]

In later years, given that the Virgin Mary outranks St. Peter of Alcantara in the hierarchy of the saints, with the proclamation of the Virgin Aparecida as Queen and Patroness of Brazil, the blessed Virgin Mary became the Nation's principal heavenly patron, and the Franciscan saint became the secondary patron.
Canonical Coronation

On the Feast of the Immaculate Conception 1904, to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the 1954 proclamation of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, the statue of Our Lady Aparecida was crowned by the archbishop of São Paulo, Dom Lino Deodato Rodrigues, at the decree of the Holy See and in the presence of the Apostolic Nuncio. The Coronation was performed in the name and on behalf of Pope Pius X who granted this approval.[2] The "Papal Coronation" of the image of Aparecida was a major event attended by a vast concourse of the people and also by several civil authorities, including the then President of the Republic, Rodrigues Alves, who made the point of witnessing the act in spite of the separation of Church and State that had been instituted less than twenty years before, when Brazil became a Republic. The gold used for the manufacture of the Crown was donated by the exiled Princess Isabel, then the head of Brazil's Imperial Family.

Subsequent to the pontifical coronation of 1904, several favours were bestowed by the Holy See upon the Brazilian devotion to Our Lady of Aparecida, including the grant of a proper office and Mass for her feast day.

Twenty years later, the village that had grown around the church on Coqueiros hill became a municipality, named after the saint.

Papal Bull of 1930

On July 16, 1930, Pope Pius XI declared the Immaculate Conception under the title of Our Lady of Aparecida to be the principal patroness of Brazil, namely widespread in the Archdiocese of Saint Sebastian of River of January.

The pontifical decree indicated that Pope Leo XIII granted the approval on the devotion of the image under the title "Nossa Senhora da Conceição Apparecida". In addition, Saint Pope Pius X established the Office of the Mass under this honor and allowing this devotion to spread due to the widespread piety of the Brazilian people. The Papal decree mentions the 1904 solid gold crown given to the image (assumingly from Isabel, Princess Imperial of Brazil). It does not however, mention the shrine being elevated to a minor basilica.

Furthermore, the devotion was researched and approved by Cardinal Camillo Laurenti, Prefect of the Sacred Congregation of Rites. The papal bull was signed and witnessed by Cardinal Eugenio Pacelli.[11] [12]

In the wake of the papal decree naming Our Lady Aparecida Patroness of Brazil, on July 16, 1930, Cardinal Sebastião Leme da Silveira Cintra, the Archbishop of Rio de Janeiro (then the Capital of Brazil), rededicated Brazil to the Virgin under this Marian title.

Later Years

Up until the early 1950s, Aparecida remained an unassuming city with a small community of Redemptorists.[2] They arrived from the sanctuary of the Virgin of Altötting in Germany and took on the responsibility for the shrine of Our Lady Aparecida, making it the first Redemptorist parish in Latin America.[2] In 1958, due to the growth of the Catholic community around the Marian Shrine of Aparecida, the Holy See decided to erect the Metropolitan Archdiocese of Aparecida, separating its territory in part from the Archdiocese of São Paulo and in part from the Diocese of Taubaté and transferring three suffragan Dioceses that previously were subject to the Metropolitan Archbishop of São Paulo to form the new ecclesiastical province of Aparecida. The new See was led by administrators until 1964, when the first Archbishop of Aparecida was appointed.

Contrary to popular belief, John Paul II was the first Pope to consecrate the shrine with the title of Basilica in 4 July 1980. In his Apostolic message, the Pontiff mentioned the coronation of 1904, the Patronage granted in 1930, and his culminating purpose of consecration of the shrine as a Basilica during that time. By research in Vatican docuмents, there is no mention of 1908 proclamations of the shrine as a Basilica by the Pope or any Vatican prelate.[13]

Assault on the image

The image became the source of religious conflicts between Catholics and Protestants, primarily driven by non-mainline churches identified with charismatic, evangelical, or fundamentalist theology, including all branches of Pentecostalism, due to the nature of Catholic Marian devotion associated with the religious image.

On May 16, 1978, a person identified as a member of a Protestant sect took the statue from its niche on the Basilica after the last Mass of the day. He was chased by guards and some of the church goers.[14] As he was caught, the statue fell to the ground breaking to pieces.[14] With difficulty, a group of dedicated artists and artisans carefully pieced it together again.[14]

On her feast day in 1995, a public holiday, an incident later known as "kicking of the saint" took place when televangelist Sérgio Von Helder (or Helde), of the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God (UCKG), insulted and kicked a replica of Our Lady of Aparecida, and said that "it could not do anything for you", on a late-night religious program broadcast by UCKG television station Rede Record.[15][16] On the following day, Rede Globo's Jornal Nacional denounced the incident, causing a nationwide commotion. The event was perceived by Catholics as a major act of religious intolerance, causing a public outcry. Several temples of the UCKG were targeted by protesters, and Von Helder was transferred to South Africa until the end of the controversy.[3][17]

The National Basilica, located in Aparecida, São Paulo, Brazil

In the mid-20th century, as the popularity of Our Lady of Aparecida grew, the construction of a much larger building to shelter the image became necessary. In 1955, work on the present Basilica of the National Shrine of Our Lady of Aparecida was begun.[2] Architect Benedito Calixto designed a building in the form of a Greek cross, 173 meters long and 168 meters wide; the tower is 100 meter high, the naves have 40 meters and the dome is 70 meters high, covering a surface area of around 18,000 square meters.[2] It can hold up to 45,000 people.[2] The 272,000 square meters of parking hold 4,000 buses and 6,000 cars.

It is currently the largest Marian temple and the second largest Basilica in the world, second only to St. Peter's in the Vatican City.[2][3]

On July 4, 1980, while still under construction, the new church was consecrated by Pope John Paul II and given the title of Minor Basilica.[2][3]

Since then, the two Basilicas in the city of Aparecida have been known as the "Old Basilica" and the "New Basilica". Upon its completion, the Brazilian Conference of Catholic Bishops declared the new Basilica a National Shrine.

As the National Shrine, dedicated to the patroness of Brazil, one of the functions of the Basilica is to function as a site of pilgrimage for laborers. The traditional pilgrimage of the laborers takes place each year on Brazil's independence holiday, September 7.[2] According to recent estimates, the Basilica attracts about 8 million pilgrims a year.[3][18]

The influence of Our Lady of Aparecida on Brazilian Catholic society is incalculable. In 1992 a study showed that 296 parishes were dedicated to her while five cathedrals had the same title. In addition, many towns are named after the Virgin and so are many Brazilian women and girls. The modern art styled cathedral of Brasilia designed by Oscar Niemeyer is dedicated to Our Lady Aparecida, as Brasilia is the national capital and she is invoked as Brazil's special protector.

In 2004, to commemorate the centennial of the pontifical coronation commanded by Pope Pius X, and the 150th anniversary of the dogmatic definition of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the statue of Our Lady of Aparecida was crowned afresh. The renewed coronation was presided by the then Archbishop emeritus of Rio de Janeiro, Cardinal Eugênio Sales, in the capacity of special papal envoy of Pope John Paul II.

In 12 May 2007, Pope Benedict XVI granted the Basilica of the National Shrine of Our Lady Aparecida a Golden Rose. The "Old Basilica" also possesses a Golden Rose, awarded by Pope Paul VI in 12 August 1967. The Golden Rose of Paul VI was delivered to the "Old Basilica" by the Apostolic Nuncio, and its bestowal was a gift of the Holy See to mark the participation of the Supreme Pontiff in the commemorations of the 250th anniversary of the devotion to the Virgin of Aparecida. The "New Basilica"'s Golden Rose, awarded by Benedict XVI, was personally delivered to the shrine by the Supreme Pontiff, who visited the Basilica and celebrated Mass there during his 2007 Apostolic visit to Brazil. Pope Francis celebrated Holy Mass at the shrine on 24 July 2013 and entrusted his pontificate as well as the World Youth Day to the maternal protection of the Blessed Virgin Mary.[19]

Feast Day

Since the 19th century, the Feast Day of Our Lady Aparecida is celebrated on October 12. The date coincides with the foundation of the Empire of Brazil in 1822, and is regarded in Brazilian culture as children's day. In the Roman Rite Catholic Liturgical Calendar approved for Brazil, the day of Our Lady Aparecida ranks as a solemnity, and is a holy day of obligation. The feast's rank as a day of precept was established by the Holy See at the request of the National Conference of Brazilian Bishops.

The feast day of Our Lady of Aparecida has been a National Holiday in Brazil since 1980. The federal statute declaring October 12 a National holiday in honour of "Our Lady of Aparecida", Patroness of Brazil, was passed by Congress and signed into law on June 30, 1980, during Pope John Paul II's first visit to the country; that was also the first visit by a Pope to Brazil, and during that visit the "New Basilica" of Aparecida was consecrated.

Cultural References

The telenovela A Padroeira (The Patroness), broadcast on Rede Globo between June 18, 2001 and February 23, 2002, was a fictional portrayal of the finding of the Our Lady of Aparecida statue,[3] loosely based on the 1865 novel As Minas de Prata by José de Alencar, which itself had been adapted for the telenovela format in 1966 by the now defunct TV Excelsior.

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Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 12, 2014, 11:21:46 PM: .

I find it ironic that while the United States of America has enjoyed the patronage of the Blessed Virgin Mary under the title of The Immaculate Conception for several decades longer than Brazil has, nonetheless, Brazil's soccer team starts their games with the sign of the Cross, but the American team does not.

That is, while America and Brazil have in common Our Lady as the Immaculate Conception as their official patroness, the American soccer team does not share the Brazilian team's practice of making the sign of the Cross at the games' start.

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Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 12, 2014, 11:31:04 PM: .

Is Our Lady of Aparecida stepping on a snake?

(http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&s=attach&id=5247)

If so, that would seem to indicate her disapproval of watching TV. :scratchchin:

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Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Capt McQuigg on July 12, 2014, 11:31:58 PM: Quote from: Neil Obstat
.

I find it ironic that while the United States of America has enjoyed the patronage of the Blessed Virgin Mary under the title of The Immaculate Conception for several decades longer than Brazil has, nonetheless, Brazil's soccer team starts their games with the sign of the Cross, but the American team does not.

That is, while America and Brazil have in common Our Lady as the Immaculate Conception as their official patroness, the American soccer team does not share the Brazilian team's practice of making the sign of the Cross at the games' start.

.

Is abortion legal in Brazil?
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 13, 2014, 05:49:11 PM: .

Good question!

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Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Centroamerica on July 14, 2014, 02:47:06 PM: Quote from: Capt McQuigg
Quote from: Neil Obstat
.

I find it ironic that while the United States of America has enjoyed the patronage of the Blessed Virgin Mary under the title of The Immaculate Conception for several decades longer than Brazil has, nonetheless, Brazil's soccer team starts their games with the sign of the Cross, but the American team does not.

That is, while America and Brazil have in common Our Lady as the Immaculate Conception as their official patroness, the American soccer team does not share the Brazilian team's practice of making the sign of the Cross at the games' start.

.

Is abortion legal in Brazil?

Abortion is not legal, but the PT (worker's party) has been trying very hard to get abortion legalized.

I will try to find the Oct. 12 prayers of the Mass of Aparecida.
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 15, 2014, 12:24:46 AM: .

Your information has been revealing to me in regards to what Brazil is all about.

Thanks for the info, Centroamerica!

It is still rather surrealistic that the TV conglomerate "Aparecida" would have the name of the national patroness of the Blessed Virgin Mary. That blows my mind.

Until you explained it I had had no idea that Aparecida TV was a name that emerged AFTER Our Lady of Aparecida. This is surprising to me because I recall having heard both terms, but never in the same context or compared to each other.

Can you explain how this happened or what the idea is behind using that name for a television network?

TV is the Devil's Tabernacle

People sit around staring at the TV, just like Catholics would be in church praying before the Real Presence of Our Lord in the tabernacle. The difference is, the praying Catholic is giving his prayers to God, while the TV viewer is only absorbing the messages that constantly stream out of the TV. And it's generally sinful things that stream out, a foul stream of impurity.

Why would they want to use the name of a Marian apparition for a Devil's Tabernacle company?

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Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Centroamerica on July 17, 2014, 07:45:15 AM: Quote from: Neil Obstat
.

TV is the Devil's Tabernacle

[/center]People sit around staring at the TV, just like Catholics would be in church praying before the Real Presence of Our Lord in the tabernacle. The difference is, the praying Catholic is giving his prayers to God, while the TV viewer is only absorbing the messages that constantly stream out of the TV. And it's generally sinful things that stream out, a foul stream of impurity.

Why would they want to use the name of a Marian apparition for a Devil's Tabernacle company?

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Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Centroamerica on July 17, 2014, 08:01:26 AM: Quote from: Neil Obstat

Could you perhaps obtain a copy of this Mass? I've never heard of it. Please see if you can get the Latin version, from which the English could be obtained if you don't have any standard English translation. I'm most interested in the Collect, Secret and Postcommunion, but the Introit, Epistle, Gradual, (Sequence, Tract, if any), Gospel, Preface (probably Feasts of Our Lady), and Communion are also of interest.

My Liber Usualis has no Chant for "Nossa Senhora da Conceição Apparecida."[sic] It has 17 High Mass versions for the various Feasts of Our Lady, two of which are Immaculate Conception and the Octave thereof, but neither one mentions October 12th or "Apparecida" (or Aparecida).

Is there a Portuguese or Brazilian version of the Liber that has the music for this Mass???

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R. Sanctus...
Is 61, 10 - Gaudens gaudebo in Domino, et exsultabit anima mea in Deo meo: quia induit me vestimentis salutis: et indumento iustitiae circuмdedit me, quasi sponsam ornatam monilibus suis.
No Senhor me alegrarei, e minha alma exultará no meu Deus porque me vestiu de vestidos de salvação, e me rodeou de ornatos de santidade, como a esposa ornada das suas jóias.
PREFÁCIO DA SANTÍSSIMA VIRGEM
Vere dignum et justum est, aequum et salutáre, nos tibi semper et ubíque grátias ágere: Dómine sancte, Pater omnípotens, aetérne Deus: Et te in Conceptione Immaculata beátae Maríae semper Vírginis collaudare, benedícere et praedicáre. Quae et Unigénitum tuum Sancti Spíritus obumbratióne concépit: et virginitátis glória permanente, lumen aetérnum mundo effúdit, Jesum Christum Dóminum nostrum. Per quem majestátem tuam laudant Angeli, adórant Dominatiónes, tremunt Potestátes. Caeli, caelorúmque Virtútes, ac beáta Séraphim, sócia exsultatióne concélebrant. cuм quibus et nostras voces dicéntes:
É verdadeiramente digno, justo, racional e salutar, que sempre e em toda a parte Vos rendamos graças, Senhor Santo, Pai onipotente e Deus eterno: e nesta festa da Imaculada Conceição da bem-aventurada sempre Virgem Maria, Vos louvemos, bendigamos e glorifiquemos, por ter Ela misteriosamente concebido do Espírito Santo o vosso Unigênito Filho e, conservando intacta a glória de sua virgindade, ter dado ao mundo a luz eterna, Jesus Cristo nosso Senhor, pelo qual louvam os Anjos a vossa majestade, a adoram as Dominações, a reverenciam as Potestades, a celebram os Céus e as Forças celestes, com os bem-aventurados Serafins, unidos todos em comum exaltação. Juntas com as deles, Vos pedimos aceiteis as nossas vozes, que em súplice louvor Vos aclamam:
***MISSA DO DIA***
Sacramenta quae súmpsimus, Dómine Deus noster : illius in nobis culpae vúlnera réparent ; a qua immaculatam beátae Maríae Conceptiónem singuláriter praeservasti.
O sacramento que acabamos de receber, Senhor, nosso Deus, repare em nós as feridas do pecado, do qual, por especial privilégio, preservastes a bem-aventurada Virgem Maria, na sua Imaculada Conceição.
Deus, qui per immaculátam Unigéniti tui Matrem in nos fámulos tuos grátiae tuae dona multíplicas: concéde propítius; ut qui ejúsdem Vírginis laudes celebramus in terris, ipsius maternis précibus praémia cónsequi mereámur in caelis.
Ó Deus, que derramastes os dons da Vossa graça sobre os Vossos servos por intermédio da imaculada Mãe do Vosso Unigênito, concedei propício a graça de alcançarem os prêmios celestes, coadjuvados pelos rogos maternos, àqueles que na terra celebram os seus louvores.
Per Dóminum nostrum Iesum Christum, Fílium tuum, qui tecuм vívit et regnat in unitáte Spíritus Sancti, Deus, per ómnia saécula saeculórum.
R. Santo... COMMUNIO
Sl. Exaltabo te, Domine, quoniam suscepisti me: nec delectasi inimicos meos super me.
Sl. Louvar-Vos-ei, Senhor, porque me protegestes e não deixastes que me vencessem os meus inimigos.
Gloriósa dicta sunt de te, María : uia fecit De Vós se disseram coisas gloriosas, ó
tibi magna qui potens est, Alellúia. Maria, porque em Vós operou maravilhas o
Gloria Patri...
Gaudens gaudebo in Domino
Glória ao Pai...
No Senhor me alegrarei...
POSTCOMMUNIO
ORATIO (COLETA)
Deus onipotente, Aleluia.
NOSSA SENHORA
DA CONCEIÇÃO APARECIDA
INTRÓITO

https://cdf7313b-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/subsidioliturgico/NOSSA_SENHORA_APARECIDA.pdf?attachauth=ANoY7crXSoXiTJ1HVYLogds80poTiCk_rNQSPhCjXvCemzj75Xb_aIPGqOLPs-wo79tKKeffD3iTUHyHdrTMMBypeb0PKdr8LJhY8pFLslPXF5m4U6eYPE5sBOv103p-NfyDwp_9xwP16dEBKZes1wlbbcbLkp-pD-fTrdiPUC7Li6SZGYDB-F5tSXtVKNAfkbZtkslZ4szITn-1Mx49rZJahSR8dJEerIiwsykfOJiM4VXLtn4MqUw%3D&attredirects=0&d=1
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Centroamerica on July 19, 2014, 08:42:44 AM: Quote from: Neil
Our Lady of Aparecida? [TV???] The TV network has a patroness?

I think it's fairly easy to see what is going on here. A media[Television company] started by Catholics has been subverted by Liberation theologists, pro-gαy, religiously indifferent masons. They now use the viewing to scandalize the Traditional faith. Is this really a big surprise to anyone. Putting it into context culturally, Masons in Brazil are more flagrant, in your face, "we're the masons,here we are" kind of deal. Are there any Catholic news or media, institutions that are not under the 'diabolical hand'? It's hard to say what's what.
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 22, 2014, 12:40:35 AM: Quote from: Centroamerica
Quote from: Neil Obstat
.

TV is the Devil's Tabernacle

People sit around staring at the TV, just like Catholics would be in church praying before the Real Presence of Our Lord in the tabernacle. The difference is, the praying Catholic is giving his prayers to God, while the TV viewer is only absorbing the messages that constantly stream out of the TV. And it's generally sinful things that stream out, a foul stream of impurity.

Why would they want to use the name of a Marian apparition for a Devil's Tabernacle company?

.

(http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&s=attach&id=5274)

That's a pretty cool image, Centroamerica! Did you compose it, or else who did??

(Probably not a sedevacantist!)

I have a sedevacantist friend who, when I told him that "TV is the devil's tabernacle," he replied, "TV is not the devil's tabernacle." See how intelligent they can deliberately avoid being?

.
Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 22, 2014, 12:54:39 AM: Quote from: Centroamerica
Quote from: Neil Obstat

Could you perhaps obtain a copy of this Mass? I've never heard of it. Please see if you can get the Latin version, from which the English could be obtained if you don't have any standard English translation. I'm most interested in the Collect, Secret and Postcommunion, but the Introit, Epistle, Gradual, (Sequence, Tract, if any), Gospel, Preface (probably Feasts of Our Lady), and Communion are also of interest.

My Liber Usualis has no Chant for "Nossa Senhora da Conceição Apparecida."[sic] It has 17 High Mass versions for the various Feasts of Our Lady, two of which are Immaculate Conception and the Octave thereof, but neither one mentions October 12th or "Apparecida" (or Aparecida).

Is there a Portuguese or Brazilian version of the Liber that has the music for this Mass???

.

R. Sanctus...
Is 61, 10 - Gaudens gaudebo in Domino, et exsultabit anima mea in Deo meo: quia induit me vestimentis salutis: et indumento iustitiae circuмdedit me, quasi sponsam ornatam monilibus suis.
No Senhor me alegrarei, e minha alma exultará no meu Deus porque me vestiu de vestidos de salvação, e me rodeou de ornatos de santidade, como a esposa ornada das suas jóias.
PREFÁCIO DA SANTÍSSIMA VIRGEM
Vere dignum et justum est, aequum et salutáre, nos tibi semper et ubíque grátias ágere: Dómine sancte, Pater omnípotens, aetérne Deus: Et te in Conceptione Immaculata beátae Maríae semper Vírginis collaudare, benedícere et praedicáre. Quae et Unigénitum tuum Sancti Spíritus obumbratióne concépit: et virginitátis glória permanente, lumen aetérnum mundo effúdit, Jesum Christum Dóminum nostrum. Per quem majestátem tuam laudant Angeli, adórant Dominatiónes, tremunt Potestátes. Caeli, caelorúmque Virtútes, ac beáta Séraphim, sócia exsultatióne concélebrant. cuм quibus et nostras voces dicéntes:
É verdadeiramente digno, justo, racional e salutar, que sempre e em toda a parte Vos rendamos graças, Senhor Santo, Pai onipotente e Deus eterno: e nesta festa da Imaculada Conceição da bem-aventurada sempre Virgem Maria, Vos louvemos, bendigamos e glorifiquemos, por ter Ela misteriosamente concebido do Espírito Santo o vosso Unigênito Filho e, conservando intacta a glória de sua virgindade, ter dado ao mundo a luz eterna, Jesus Cristo nosso Senhor, pelo qual louvam os Anjos a vossa majestade, a adoram as Dominações, a reverenciam as Potestades, a celebram os Céus e as Forças celestes, com os bem-aventurados Serafins, unidos todos em comum exaltação. Juntas com as deles, Vos pedimos aceiteis as nossas vozes, que em súplice louvor Vos aclamam:
***MISSA DO DIA***
Sacramenta quae súmpsimus, Dómine Deus noster : illius in nobis culpae vúlnera réparent ; a qua immaculatam beátae Maríae Conceptiónem singuláriter praeservasti.
O sacramento que acabamos de receber, Senhor, nosso Deus, repare em nós as feridas do pecado, do qual, por especial privilégio, preservastes a bem-aventurada Virgem Maria, na sua Imaculada Conceição.
Deus, qui per immaculátam Unigéniti tui Matrem in nos fámulos tuos grátiae tuae dona multíplicas: concéde propítius; ut qui ejúsdem Vírginis laudes celebramus in terris, ipsius maternis précibus praémia cónsequi mereámur in caelis.
Ó Deus, que derramastes os dons da Vossa graça sobre os Vossos servos por intermédio da imaculada Mãe do Vosso Unigênito, concedei propício a graça de alcançarem os prêmios celestes, coadjuvados pelos rogos maternos, àqueles que na terra celebram os seus louvores.
Per Dóminum nostrum Iesum Christum, Fílium tuum, qui tecuм vívit et regnat in unitáte Spíritus Sancti, Deus, per ómnia saécula saeculórum.
R. Santo... COMMUNIO
Sl. Exaltabo te, Domine, quoniam suscepisti me: nec delectasi inimicos meos super me.
Sl. Louvar-Vos-ei, Senhor, porque me protegestes e não deixastes que me vencessem os meus inimigos.
Gloriósa dicta sunt de te, María : uia fecit De Vós se disseram coisas gloriosas, ó
tibi magna qui potens est, Alellúia. Maria, porque em Vós operou maravilhas o
Gloria Patri...
Gaudens gaudebo in Domino
Glória ao Pai...
No Senhor me alegrarei...
POSTCOMMUNIO
ORATIO (COLETA)
Deus onipotente, Aleluia.
NOSSA SENHORA
DA CONCEIÇÃO APARECIDA
INTRÓITO

Thanks for the help!

At first glance I see some typos in the Latin -- that could be due to the correct Latin being so very close to the Portuguese translation, that the copyist left some very similar Portuguese words in place of the proper Latin words. But I have no idea what to make of the Portuguese. The note at the bottom saying Benedict XVI and his MPSP has me rather looking about cirumspectly. :furtive:

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Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 22, 2014, 01:55:51 AM: .

The Latin Preface in your version here, proper to this BVM Mass, ends with this:

"cuм quibus et nostras voces dicéntes:"

However, my missal has this in the same spot:

"cuм quibus et nostras voces, ut admitti, jubeas, deprecamur, supplici confessione dicéntes:

The underlined words from my missal are omitted in your version.

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Title: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists"
Post by: Neil Obstat on July 26, 2014, 07:14:04 PM: .

Centroamerica,

Can you find the publication date on the Mass prayers you provided? The pages look like you scanned them, or, maybe someone else scanned them.

I'd like to know if it was 1962 or later that these pages were compiled.

.