.
Maybe I could post the last discussion you and I were having on about this. It seems CI might be a more friendly place to discuss it IYKWIM.
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Sure Neil. Go ahead and post it.
You asked for it, you got it, Toyota. (But the formatting is too time consuming!)
(Lurkers can see the original with formatting at this website:
http://./thread/2775/aparecida-tv-traditionalists-worse-atheists
Word)
Archbishop Lefebvre Forums
Crisis in the Church
Aparecida TV Traditionalists worse than atheists
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Aparecida TV Traditionalists worse than atheists
Brazil Catholics
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Jul 7, 2014 at 10:40am Telesphorus and Neil Obstat like this.
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Post by fatima13 on Jul 7, 2014 at 10:40am
I would like to present a recent event in Brazil that has scandalized many Catholics. I translated the key part up to the section where the author begins to defend the Motu Proprio. If you go to the link you will see the videos including one of the alleged priest's Mass. What follows after that section is a copy and pasted google translation as I was running out of time and need to focus energy else where. I apologize.
In my opinion, Brazil is suffering more from this crisis than any other American country. The masons have a strong grip on everything in this country. Certainly, the sell out +Rifan does not help when he tells Catholics that they can go to both Masses and everything is okay. ------------Centroamerica
fidespress.com/brasil/tradicionalista-um-catolico-autentico-mas-de-segunda-categoria-diz-tv-aparecida/
Traditionalist: An Authentic Catholic but second class, says TV Aparecida
On June 26, 2014, the TV Aparecida program "Em Frente" received a caller, Vanya Bonatto. After greeting the hosts, the caller asked Fr. Pedro Cunha, a member of the program, and received a rather unfortunate response.
Below you will read the dialogue held at the station with our emphasis and notes in red.
Father Peter, I have a very big doubt..- I have a son and he has become extremely religious, Catholic, minister of the, my son suddenly retorted. I mean he tells me: Mom, I'm Catholic and I will continue to be truly Catholic", it's just that he turned into that kind of Pre-Vatican 2 Catholic, the Traditional one, well.
They go into a chapel because they don't have a church there, they go into a chapel where the priest celebrates with his back to the people, right. My daughter-in-law only goes using a veil and dress or skirt, and they always talk about going to a monastery. [translator note: speaking of monasteries is strange for the Novus Ordo here, outdated. Could the monastery be the monastery of Dom Tomas?] He had never missed a Mass on the network Vida or TV Aparecida, everyday, he was a regular, and today it is different. He tells me: "Mother, I pray the Rosary [15 mysteries] every day! I'm Catholic and I want to take back my religion", but I do not agree and do not know if I am wrong or not.
Up to this point, the caller has not pointed out if her son is a sede vacantist, apostate, or heretical, she has only mentioned his way of "living the faith" and that does not agree- out of ignorance- to the way she does. In this case, the request of the caller was a to clarify if her son was a Catholic because her ignorance and prejudice seems to state otherwise.
Father Pedro asked the host Rodolfo Ferraz, a clear fan of Liberation Theology (condemned by JP2), to respond to the caller. However, he gives a brief introduction: This is the Catholic Church, it is truly Catholic, but the people are very reactionary are they not? Rodolfo chuckles and is interrupted by Denise Procopio, a host of the program that wants to give an example of a situation that she believes is similar:
"Let me just mention something I have here an email here I would like to read (presented as a doubt) except that in this one the mother says her son is an atheist. May I read? Because if you want there is already a correspondence.....
Then, we present the drama of a mother who wants to rekindle the faith in her son....Rodolfo asks Fr. Peter: would you like to say something and then I will speak?
"Look, in reference to this young man [atheist] I have no concern. I am much more concerned with the first question [traditionalist] than with the second. And you can say: Our Father, for the love of God. A person is Catholic and living their faith profoundly. People, religious fundamentalism is dangerous or even more dangerous than atheism. How come? Because religious fundamentalism can lead you to do crazy things. (As history proves chimes in Rodolfo.) Exactly.
About the teen, he's going through a phase. You know what you have to do? Don't argue or try to convince him of anything. You have to be an excellent Catholic, and excellent Christian, in,order to show him the living Gospel, not the spoken Gospel or the written Gospel.
If he gets it, rest assured that when he grows up a little more push the thing and he'll say "Oh my gosh." It's like those people who were Catholic and become evangelicals [surely the program knows about this] who do not want to know about Our Lady, right. Now, let's go back to the other case because I think it's important, concluded the priest.
Fr. Pedro makes the initial conclusion that it is less worrisome to have an atheist son than one who participates in the Traditional Mass because the Traditional Mass is essentially fundamentalist.
Rodolfo: So, in fact, I share the concern of the priest today because there are many groups with fundamentalist bias. I do not, and I know that father does not, saying that this that this is the case with the group to which your son belongs, but tell us what happened? A few years ago (2007), Pope Benedict XVI authorized those well-formed communities to celebrate according to the Old Rite, that is the Rite of the Council of Trent, they could do,it. It was because of the sensitivity of the pope to respect those communities who would like to maintain this way of praying. What ever happened was a proliferation that was actually contrary to what Pope Benedict XVI himself wanted.
Hey, that's not what Benedict said in Summorum Pontificuм. Benedict XVI was emphatic that "permission to celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass of the Mass following the typical edition of the Roman Missal promulgated by John XXIII in 1962 and never abrogated" Rodolfo grabs article 3 of the docuмent which says that religious communities can have it, and says that it is the desire of the pope that only that group can access it. This is totally false. Article 2 states:
[google translation continues the article]
"In Masses celebrated without the people, the any Catholic priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or religious, may use the Roman Missal published by Blessed Pope John XXIII in 1962 or the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970, and offer it every day with the exception of the Easter Triduum. To this conclusion by one or the other Missal, the priest does not need any authorization from the Apostolic See or from his Ordinary . "
Everything that goes beyond those words of Mr. Rodolfo is increased.
The question came handy because even yesterday (25/06) Pope Francisco hosted a group of religious (read Franciscans of the Immaculate) who just want to say Mass as well and received the Pope to tell them: 'No, even if the Church with Benedict XVI has authorized, I want you to ask permission because officially the rite of the Mass is that of Paul VI, the Second Vatican Council, the Church of the people of God where everyone participates. " So, there is a return to that kind of movement that is dangerous and that is not the liturgy or why this group was formed by many older people in Latin or who would like the Pope wanted to observe, so keep praying.
Intellectual dishonesty. There is no public speech of the Holy Father Francisco about it! What there are are speculations of evil people who would love the Pope to say this. If that were true, that would be directed at a speech that IBP has the obligation conferred by His Holiness Benedict XVI, celebrating the old rite exclusively.
It traditionalism by traditionalism. Pra affront to our way of being Church today, as if the wrong part with the people participating, with the priest facing the people. So unfortunately it is not only the celebration of the liturgy, but in a whole mindset that follows and criticizes the Second Vatican Council , which is the spirit in which the Church lives, and is celebrating Thanksgiving this council after 50 years.
Well, as stated earlier, the only son of telespectadora attends Mass in the extraordinary form, was not told anything about the critical missal of Paul VI that is not a work of the council itself, but concomitant to council.
Now comes the most disastrous part of the conversation: Father Pedro proves by A + B that do not even know what is Mass.
Father Pedro Cunha takes the floor:
Look, look Rodolfo, I know you have a call waiting, but I wanted to say something as a priest, I am a priest for 25 years, you've been my Masses, Denise has been there many Masses mine and I celebrate with joy, I celebrate with taste, celebrate with enthusiasm, but I celebrate the people, involving them with their lives and I do not celebrate Mass for me.
E, and I honestly I can not imagine I turn my back on the people and a Mass like? That way and that so? How I'll do it? For the love of God. It is the people of God who is there. I am the presence of Jesus Christ to the people, so I have to embrace the people, being with him, sing to him, smile at him, talk to them and pray with them, because it is God's people, I'm not alone.
He assumes that people do not have "participation" in the Mass of Pius V, poor, confuses the Mass with a little show. Of course the people "interact" in the Missal of Pius V, but not interact, nothing changes. Believe Father Pedro, nobody wakes up early on Sundays to watch their numerozinhos, or to see your beautiful face, since the center of mass is Christ, not the priest Pedro Cunha, nor the people. The Mass is the center of the dialogue between the people and the priest is an invention of Luther.
About priest living c 243_Francis_Ad_Orientam_IMAGEOstas for the people: Dear priest, how can you say something stupid like that? The Mass is the sacrifice of Christ for the people, not the people. The priest celebrates in persona Christi to Father God.
The Mass is the sacrifice of Christ therefore directed to God the Father for the people of God , understand the difference? Alias, Fr. Peter, as fond ofdistort the attitudes of the Pope, why not a little lecture about His Holiness Francisco celebrate "backs" (adopting their language) to the people?
Do you not know that this position is in the missal of Paul VI? Alias, usais the missal in his Masses or just go with pompons to help the joy, zest and enthusiasm?
Since the issue is the new path of the Church, could show us where the missal has the attitudes of the video below?
Note: This video makes clear why their masses are with "joy." ????
Another thing I am afraid, is hiding in a way, it seems, I am judging, perhaps one my sin, right? And I think I am judging myself, but sometimes I have the impression that some of these people hide and use it as a sort of curtain, the same veil, to hide other things, right? And it is not because of it - who am I to say that he saw? - Is a perception that I have, but I got the impression that it is as if to say this: Yes, I do well to realize that no one really who I am.
Soon, masses with pitch ball, as the video above shows the deepest of Father Pedro. ????
Rodolfo takes the word and says:
So, right Father? As I said, the liturgy is not only the rite, and a whole mindset, those gestures, those movements, those ceremonial, is a mindset for life. See what she (the caller) says: That son dropped his community he served as minister of the word, that the son's wife now can only wear a skirt and veil on liturgy is probably a separate church, on one side only the other men just women, ie, goes against the spirit of the council and it was not what Pope Benedict XVI to authorize the Mass of Trent.
One more lie. The Missal of Paul VI is not the work of the council. The Missal of Paul VI was created in the same period, but is the work of Paul VI, not the council, as Sacrosanctum Concilium (Vatican II docuмent that talks about the liturgy) has not sent any time that we took a new Missal!
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Jul 7, 2014 at 11:04am Neil Obstat likes this.
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Post by Frances on Jul 7, 2014 at 11:04am
Only Brazil? Hardly! My parents (USA) were told by their novus ordo priest that I, too, would be better off returning to the evangelical Protestants than going to a Mass "outlawed by Pope Paul VI in 1969."
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Jul 7, 2014 at 11:27am Neil Obstat likes this.
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Post by fatima13 on Jul 7, 2014 at 11:27am
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Jul 7, 2014 at 11:04am Frances said:
Only Brazil? Hardly! My parents (USA) were told by their novus ordo priest that I, too, would be better off returning to the evangelical Protestants than going to a Mass "outlawed by Pope Paul VI in 1969."
Dear Francis,
We are talking here about a main stream television channel that all Brazilians are familiar with. The majority of Americans have never heard of Traditional Catholics. Here it is pushed on mainstream television that we are worse than atheist. I should have specified. Also, it is common to see on mainstream television "cowboy" "priest" galloping around at any given time singing rock songs to the Exposed Host while wearing cowboy hats and skin tight jeans. This is mainstream Brazilian television. In a country with the worlds largest Catholic population there is a point to have more Masonic Lodges than Catholic Churches in each town. The churches that are here do not have crucifixes in them. Only the risen Christ and twisted crosses adorn their roofs. Clearly the situation is not comparable with your parents concerned with your religious preference. I could have included more details and for that I apologize.
Centroamerica
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 9:22am
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Jul 7, 2014 at 11:27am fatima13 said:
Frances Avatar
Jul 7, 2014 at 11:04am Frances said:
Only Brazil? Hardly! My parents (USA) were told by their novus ordo priest that I, too, would be better off returning to the evangelical Protestants than going to a Mass "outlawed by Pope Paul VI in 1969."
Dear Francis,
We are talking here about a mainstream television channel that all Brazilians are familiar with. The majority of Americans have never heard of Traditional Catholics. Here it is pushed on mainstream television that we are worse than atheist. I should have specified. Also, it is common to see on mainstream television "cowboy" "priest" galloping around at any given time singing rock songs to the Exposed Host while wearing cowboy hats and skin tight jeans. This is mainstream Brazilian television. In a country with the world's largest Catholic population there is a point to have more Masonic Lodges than Catholic Churches in each town. The churches that are here do not have crucifixes in them. Only the risen Christ and twisted crosses adorn their roofs. Clearly the situation is not comparable with your parents concerned with your religious preference. I could have included more details and for that I apologize.
Centroamerica
The details are illuminating.
Please continue, Centroamerica!
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 9:55am
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To clarify, I should point out that I tried to read the OP and I'm totally lost.
It seems you have mixed in your comments without showing a difference in font or format, leaving out close-quote marks and using (parentheses) instead of [brackets], so I don't know if it's you speaking, or the person on the TV program, or someone that person is quoting.
So I'm lost. While there is interesting content there, I don't know who is saying it, so it makes no sense to me.
In my opinion, Brazil is suffering more from this crisis than any other American country. The masons have a strong grip on everything in this country. Certainly, the sell out +Rifan does not help when he tells Catholics that they can go to both Masses and everything is okay. ------------Centroamerica
This part is obviously you speaking, Centroamerica.
I appreciate this message because your opinion matters, since you are an eyewitness to this happening.
~ Brazil suffers more than any other [north or south] American country.
~ Freemasons have a strong grip on everything in Brazil.
~ The sellout +Rifan commits by telling people it's okay for them to assist at Mass in the "extraordinary form" or the "ordinary form" [correct??].
This could be quite valuable information because since Francis is from this part of the world (Argentina is close to Brazil -- I know, it's like saying that a Mexican is like an American or a Canadian is like an American, but even though Brazil speaks Portuguese and Argentina speaks Spanish, in this matter of the Faith, they are highly influential upon each other).
One thing needs to be clarified, and that is, in the USA, when we say "American" we only refer to things regarding citizens of the USA, which technically includes Puerto Rico, but the man on the street is not cognizant of Puerto Rico. It's a pride thing, ignorance mixed with nationalism.
So it would be nice if you kept that in mind, and at least now and then throw in "South-" when you say "America," because otherwise readers here will think you're talking about the 50 States, and "what does Alaska and Hawaii have to do with São Paulo??" (They won't know how to pronounce São Paulo, nor will they know it's in Brazil -- unless they've been watching the World Cup! but most Americans HATE Soccer, so they won't be watching! -- nor will they realize that São Paulo is the largest city in Brazil, or that Brazil is bigger than Texas.)
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 10:15am
.
Actually, it looks like Brazil is larger than the contiguous United States combined.
Brazil: 8,511,965 sq. Km. 3,286,482sq.mi.
Contiguous USA: 8,103,868 sq. Km. 3,114,744 sq. mi.
(And Alaska is twice the area of Texas!)
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 10:31am
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What is the meaning of this:
Everything that goes beyond those words of Mr. Rodolfo is increased.
~ Is "Mr. Rodolfo" the same person as Fr. Rodolfo, or is Fr's brother there too, or whatever?
~ What does "everything" refer to: words spoken, videos shown, statistics quoted, caller's questions?
~ What do you mean by, "goes beyond those words" - which words are "those words?"
~ In what way does "everything" somehow "go beyond those words?" Can you give an example?
~ How is "everything" increased? Is "everything" somehow larger, or longer, or wider or more numerous, or does "everything" only take more time? (In what way does "everything" take time?)
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 10:44am
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The next sentence is equally confusing:
The question came handy because even yesterday (25/06) Pope Francisco hosted a group of religious (read Franciscans of the Immaculate) who just want to say Mass as well and received the Pope to tell them:
How does a question come handy? I'm not sure what "came handy" means. Is this the same as "came in handy?"
Are the parenthetical words, "(read Franciscans of the Immaculate)," your words, or are they someone else's words? (If they're yours, they would be more clearly read as such, if you only had used brackets and a colon: "[read: Franciscans of the Immaculate].")
By "say Mass as well," is it meant to convey they want to say Mass in a manner equally well as someone else, or is it that they want to say Mass instead of not saying Mass, or, is it that they want to have the permission to participate in a TLM somewhere? If so, then where would they go for the TLM?
By "received the Pope to tell them," is this you talking or the TV program? Did the group receive the Pope in order to tell someone else something? Or, did the group receive the Pope in order for the Pope to tell them something? Or, was the group of religious disappointed after receiving the Pope because what they had hoped to hear from him they did not hear, but instead they heard him say something quite different from what they had hoped that he would say?
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Last Edit: Jul 8, 2014 at 10:51am by Neil Obstat
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 10:57am
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I hope you don't think I'm demanding too much precision.
I'm thinking how am I going to talk about this to anyone when I can't make heads or tails out of what you're saying. Maybe it means this, maybe it means that. I would prefer to have a SOLID basis in what I'm saying, because this is too important of a story to get it all wrong.
I am willing to help you if you will let me. I would like to put this whole thing into a form that an American can read and then I'll just sit back and watch his jaw drop.
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Post by Telesphorus on Jul 8, 2014 at 11:57am
"Look, in reference to this young man [atheist] I have no concern. I am much more concerned with the first question [traditionalist] than with the second. And you can say: Our Father, for the love of God. A person is Catholic and living their faith profoundly. People, religious fundamentalism is dangerous or even more dangerous than atheism. How come? Because religious fundamentalism can lead you to do crazy things. (As history proves chimes in Rodolfo.) Exactly.
Anyone who considers being "fundamentalist" worse than being an atheist has lost the Faith. That is the only reason you would believe that. As though atheism doesn't lead people to do crazy things?
People who line up with liberals while claiming the name of Catholic, and work to persecute those who are really Catholics, are truly the worst enemies of the religion, and they maintain the nominal identity of the religion out of convenience, and often it is not just about appearances and accommodation - those people don't go on and on about religion. It's a about Marxist subversion of Faith.
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 2:23pm
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Jul 7, 2014 at 11:27am fatima13 said:
Frances Avatar
Jul 7, 2014 at 11:04am Frances said:
Only Brazil? Hardly! My parents (USA) were told by their novus ordo priest that I, too, would be better off returning to the evangelical Protestants than going to a Mass "outlawed by Pope Paul VI in 1969."
Dear Francis,
We are talking here about a main stream television channel that all Brazilians are familiar with. The majority of Americans have never heard of Traditional Catholics. Here it is pushed on mainstream television that we are worse than atheist.
Another thing: The MSM in America would NEVER say that Traditional Catholics are "worse than atheists" for two reasons: the first you already mentioned, the majority of Americans are unaware that Trad Caths exist (they only know about "fundamentalists" but that can be for any religion), but the second is that the MSM in America would never say something that implies there is anything wrong with atheism. That would be "uncharitable," or "divisive," or "extremist."
I can give you a hit list of websites where NovusOrdo Catholics bow and scrape to atheists as if they have some kind of awesomeness that must be revered at all costs -- sort of like what JPII did, actually.
I should have specified. Also, it is common to see on mainstream television "cowboy" "priest" galloping around at any given time singing rock songs to the Exposed Host while wearing cowboy hats and skin tight jeans. This is mainstream Brazilian television.
The image you describe here makes no sense. It is too weird for me to imagine what this looks like. Maybe you could post some links to video clips to exemplify this. Americans would not know what you're talking about. I don't think we ever had such an image in the Westerns (movies), and to show it now would be a first. Please provide some YouTube links so we can embed them here for all to see. If I can't show someone a clip they won't believe I did not MAKE THIS UP --- must be another "Internet rumour," you know?
In a country with the world's largest Catholic population, there is a point to have more Masonic Lodges than Catholic Churches in each town. The churches that are here do not have crucifixes in them. Only the risen Christ and twisted crosses adorn their roofs.
A) Americans would have no idea that Brazil has "the world's largest Catholic population." But actually, even if you were to tell them they'd say, "So what?"
B) For those Americans who would be interested in this statistic (they might ask for a number and for the second largest number and its country, too -- "Where would that be, Canada?"), having more Masonic Lodges than Catholic churches may not be all that impressive, sad to say. But I appreciate the factoid, nonetheless!
C) This churches with no crucifixes thingy is similarly not going to be very impressive because it's also going on in the USA -- progressive bishops are tearing out the old and installing the new. Where these old crucifixes are going is a good question -- are they being stockpiled and burned or something??
D) The "twisted crosses" with "risen Christ" should be docuмented. Is there any website that has some photos? If it is that common there should be some pictures somewhere, no??
Clearly the situation is not comparable with your parents concerned with your religious preference. I could have included more details and for that I apologize.
Centroamerica
This is an important observation -- what's going on in Brazil, as you describe, is far worse than someone's parents being opposed to their child's reversion to Traditional Catholicism.
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 2:42pm
.
This is a wonderful insight, Telesphorus. I missed this altogether.
But then, even now, I'm not sure who is talking here and whose ideas these are. Let me show you some of the inherent confusion I'm groping with:
Should the punctuation here be like this: And you can say, the "Our Father," for the love of God.
Or, And you can say, "Our Father," or "for the love of God."
Because this is nonsense: "And you can say: Our Father, for the love of God. A person is Catholic and living their faith profoundly."
Example: "Our Father, for the love of God. Someone who says this shows that he's Catholic and living his faith profoundly. (Really? All I have to do is say "Our Father, for the love of God" and I show how profoundly I'm living my Catholic faith?)
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Jul 8, 2014 at 11:57am Telesphorus said:
"Look, in reference to this young man [atheist] I have no concern. I am much more concerned with the first question [traditionalist] than with the second. And you can say: Our Father, for the love of God. A person is Catholic and living their faith profoundly.
People, religious fundamentalism is dangerous or even more dangerous than atheism. How come? Because religious fundamentalism can lead you to do crazy things. ("As history proves," chimes in Rodolfo.) Exactly.
Anyone who considers being "fundamentalist" worse than being an atheist has lost the Faith. That is the only reason you would believe that. As though atheism doesn't lead people to do crazy things?
Anyone who adheres to atheism has ALREADY done a crazy thing -- it has only been in the past few hundred years that atheism has become tolerable as an ideology because since the dawn of history the very notion of the world existing without God was considered utter insanity. If you begin with sheer intellectual lunacy, where do you suppose you'll end up, but with more lunacy?
People who line up with liberals while claiming the name of Catholic, and work to persecute those who are really Catholics, are truly the worst enemies of the religion, and they maintain the nominal identity of the religion out of convenience, and often it is not just about appearances and accommodation - those people don't go on and on about religion. It's a about Marxist subversion of Faith.
This thing you describe, Tele, is running rampant in the USA. The MSM has raised "fundamentalism" to a new slang word that outstrips just about any insult going. I know feeble Catholics in their 80's who are entirely convinced that anyone who prays the daily Rosary is a freaking extremist. But they have no qualms about atheists.
This misdirected reverence for atheism has taken deep root in America, and JPII observed it here and made it official.
When you say this: "People who line up with liberals while claiming the name of Catholic, and work to persecute those who are really Catholics, are truly the worst enemies of the religion,.." you're referring to Pope Paul VI!!!
And by extension, you're referring to everyone who stepped into line behind his BAD COMMANDS (FROM THE DEVIL), working to persecute those who are really Catholics.
And this: "..and they maintain the nominal identity of the religion out of convenience, and often it is not just about appearances and accommodation - those people don't go on and on about religion. It's a about Marxist subversion of Faith," it's about secularization of the spiritual, materialization of the other-worldly, banalization of the truth of God, the LEAVEN OF THE PHARISEES.
That has been the Freemasonic agenda all along, based in тαℓмυdism, which is a FALSE RELIGION.
.
Last Edit: Jul 8, 2014 at 3:08pm by Neil Obstat
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Jul 8, 2014 at 2:48pm PereJoseph and Neil Obstat like this.
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Post by Telesphorus on Jul 8, 2014 at 2:48pm
Fundamentalist is a codeword for "believer" as opposed to maintaining a sentimental and masonic view of religion. Liberal Catholics start out by telling children and simpler folk that "fundamentalists are Bible protestants who think the world is only 6000 years old" - but among most "educated" people today it means actually believing.
Last Edit: Jul 8, 2014 at 7:19pm by Telesphorus
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 8, 2014 at 3:03pm
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Jul 8, 2014 at 2:48pm Telesphorus said:
Fundamentalist is a codeword for "believer" as opposed to maintaining a sentimental and masonic view of religion. Liberal Catholics start out by telling children and simpler folk that "fundamentalists are Bible protestants who think the world is only 6000 years old - but among most "educated" people today it means actually believing.
Maybe it's time we start using "fundamentalist Freemason" -- it has an easy sound to it.
Freemasonic fundamentalism
Fundamentalist Mason
Mason fundamentalist
Fundamasonic, fundamason, fundafreemason, Freemasonfundies
Two can play this game.
.
fatima13
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Jul 8, 2014 at 4:28pm
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Post by fatima13 on Jul 8, 2014 at 4:28pm
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Jul 8, 2014 at 9:55am
Neil Obstat [fatima 13] said:
Sorry Neil for not being clearer. As I had stated, I didn't have time to translate the whole thing. I had a class to teach shortly after. I tried to change a few wrong terms and structures from the google translation that followed but didn't get to all of it.
The part in red is the comment from the blog that posted the original Portuguese article. These were their comments. They also didn't use proper quotation marks so when I translated I didn't put the correct punctuation. I think we can say that was the blog article that should've used quotation marks to make their article clearer. I tried to write in red where they were making their comments as they had stated. Actually, in the original article, all of their comments weren't in red as they had claimed they would be. So it was a bit confusing. I understand. I apologize for their poor communications.
This ordeal actually received a lot of attention here. I was surprised. I went to their Facebook page and there were something like a couple hundred Brazilians denouncing them as modernist impostors. I was proud of the Brazilians to see that.
Up to where the author begins to defend the Motu Proprio is where I left off with the google translation. Before that, all that appears in red are comments from the author of the blog.
I hope oped that clears it up a little for you.
This is was actually a big deal here and many Brazilians from many states were upset with the program.
To clarify, I should point out that I tried to read the OP and I'm totally lost.
It seems you have mixed in your comments without showing a difference in font or format, leaving out close-quote marks and using (parentheses) instead of [brackets], so I don't know if it's you speaking, or the person on the TV program, or someone that person is quoting.
So I'm lost. While there is interesting content there, I don't know who is saying it, so it makes no sense to me.
In my opinion, Brazil is suffering more from this crisis than any other American country. The masons have a strong grip on everything in this country. Certainly, the sell out +Rifan does not help when he tells Catholics that they can go to both Masses and everything is okay. ------------Centroamerica
This part is obviously you speaking, Centroamerica.
I appreciate this message because your opinion matters, since you are an eyewitness to this happening.
~ Brazil suffers more than any other [north or south] American country.
~ Freemasons have a strong grip on everything in Brazil.
~ The sellout +Rifan commits by telling people it's okay for them to assist at Mass in the "extraordinary form" or the "ordinary form" [correct??].
This could be quite valuable information because since Francis is from this part of the world (Argentina is close to Brazil -- I know, it's like saying that a Mexican is like an American or a Canadian is like an American, but even though Brazil speaks Portuguese and Argentina speaks Spanish, in this matter of the Faith, they are highly influential upon each other).
One thing needs to be clarified, and that is, in the USA, when we say "American" we only refer to things regarding citizens of the USA, which technically includes Puerto Rico, but the man on the street is not cognizant of Puerto Rico. It's a pride thing, ignorance mixed with nationalism.
So it would be nice if you kept that in mind, and at least now and then throw in "South-" when you say "America," because otherwise readers here will think you're talking about the 50 States, and "what does Alaska and Hawaii have to do with São Paulo??" (They won't know how to pronounce São Paulo, nor will they know it's in Brazil -- unless they've been watching the World Cup! but most Americans HATE Soccer, so they won't be watching! -- nor will they realize that São Paulo is the largest city in Brazil, or that Brazil is bigger than Texas.)
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fatima13
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Jul 8, 2014 at 4:32pm
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Post by fatima13 on Jul 8, 2014 at 4:32pm
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Jul 8, 2014 at 4:28pm fatima13 said:
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Jul 8, 2014 at 9:55am Neil Obstat said:
Sorry Neil for not being clearer. As I had stated, I didn't have time to translate the whole thing. I had a class to teach shortly after. I tried to change a few wrong terms and structures from the google translation that followed but didn't get to all of it.
The part in red is the comment from the blog that posted the original Portuguese article. These were their comments. They also didn't use proper quotation marks so when I translated I didn't put the correct punctuation. I think we can say that was the blog article that should've used quotation marks to make their article clearer. I tried to write in red where they were making their comments as they had stated. Actually, in the original article, all of their comments weren't in red as they had claimed they would be. So it was a bit confusing. I understand. I apologize for their poor communications.
This ordeal actually received a lot of attention here. I was surprised. I went to their Facebook page and there were something like a couple hundred Brazilians denouncing them as modernist impostors. I was proud of the Brazilians to see that.
Up to where the author begins to defend the Motu Proprio is where I left off with the google translation. Before that, all that appears in red are comments from the author of the blog.
I hope oped that clears it up a little for you.
This is was actually a big deal here and many Brazilians from many states were upset with the program.
To clarify, I should point out that I tried to read the OP and I'm totally lost.
It seems you have mixed in your comments without showing a difference in font or format, leaving out close-quote marks and using (parentheses) instead of [brackets], so I don't know if it's you speaking, or the person on the TV program, or someone that person is quoting.
So I'm lost. While there is interesting content there, I don't know who is saying it, so it makes no sense to me.
This part is obviously you speaking, Centroamerica.
I appreciate this message because your opinion matters, since you are an eyewitness to this happening.
~ Brazil suffers more than any other [north or south] American country.
~ Freemasons have a strong grip on everything in Brazil.
~ The sellout +Rifan commits by telling people it's okay for them to assist at Mass in the "extraordinary form" or the "ordinary form" [correct??].
This could be quite valuable information because since Francis is from this part of the world (Argentina is close to Brazil -- I know, it's like saying that a Mexican is like an American or a Canadian is like an American, but even though Brazil speaks Portuguese and Argentina speaks Spanish, in this matter of the Faith, they are highly influential upon each other).
One thing needs to be clarified, and that is, in the USA, when we say "American" we only refer to things regarding citizens of the USA, which technically includes Puerto Rico, but the man on the street is not cognizant of Puerto Rico. It's a pride thing, ignorance mixed with nationalism.
So it would be nice if you kept that in mind, and at least now and then throw in "South-" when you say "America," because otherwise readers here will think you're talking about the 50 States, and "what does Alaska and Hawaii have to do with São Paulo??" (They won't know how to pronounce São Paulo, nor will they know it's in Brazil -- unless they've been watching the World Cup! but most Americans HATE Soccer, so they won't be watching! -- nor will they realize that São Paulo is the largest city in Brazil, or that Brazil is bigger than Texas.)
Sorry the red was only used on a different forum. Sorry for the confusion. I'll be more precise next time. The comment you asked should say that Francis received the Franciscans of the Immaculate, not that they received him. :/
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Jul 8, 2014 at 4:44pm
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Post by fatima13 on Jul 8, 2014 at 4:44pm
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Jul 8, 2014 at 10:31am Neil Obstat said:
.
What is the meaning of this:
Everything that goes beyond those words of Mr. Rodolfo is increased.
~ Is "Mr. Rodolfo" the same person as Fr. Rodolfo, or is Fr's brother there too, or whatever?
~ What does "everything" refer to: words spoken, videos shown, statistics quoted, caller's questions?
~ What do you mean by, "goes beyond those words" - which words are "those words?"
~ In what way does "everything" somehow "go beyond those words?" Can you give an example?
~ How is "everything" increased? Is "everything" somehow larger, or longer, or wider or more numerous, or does "everything" only take more time? (In what way does "everything" take time?)
.
Centroamerica here begins:
No. Sorry there was only one alleged priest. "Padre" Pedro. Mr. Rodolfo is the person in the video wearing the black "Liberation theology" ring, a simple laymen.
The correct translation of that line would've said:
"Anything more than that that would've been said are the words of Mr. Rodolfo."
The implication of the author here is that Mr. Rodolfo interpreted incorrectly the Summorum Pontificuм. Remember that it was at this point in the post that the google translation starts.
Last Edit: Jul 8, 2014 at 4:45pm by fatima13
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Jul 8, 2014 at 4:47pm
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Post by fatima13 on Jul 8, 2014 at 4:47pm
Ugh. Not being able to quote on this forum.
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Jul 8, 2014 at 4:49pm
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Post by fatima13 on Jul 8, 2014 at 4:49pm
Any of my personal comments said ......Centroamerica or were in brackets [].
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Jul 9, 2014 at 1:09am
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Post by Neil Obstat on Jul 9, 2014 at 1:09am
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Jul 7, 2014 at 10:40am fatima13 said:
Let's take this out of the quote boxes since you're having a hard time with those.
I'll put my comments in blue.
I would like to present a recent event in Brazil that has scandalized many Catholics. I translated the key part up to the section where the author begins to defend the Motu Proprio. If you go to the link you will see the videos including one of the alleged priest's Mass. What follows after that section is a copy and pasted google translation as I was running out of time and need to focus energy else where. I apologize.
In my opinion, Brazil is suffering more from this crisis than any other American country. The masons have a strong grip on everything in this country. Certainly, the sell out [of] +Rifan does not help when he tells Catholics that they can go to both Masses and everything is okay. ------------Centroamerica
By "both Masses" are you referring to Indult and SSPX, or TLM and NovusOrdo?
fidespress.com/brasil/tradicionalista-um-catolico-autentico-mas-de-segunda-categoria-diz-tv-aparecida/
Traditionalist: An Authentic Catholic but second class, says TV Aparecida
On June 26, 2014, the TV Aparecida program "Em Frente" received a caller, Vanya Bonatto. After greeting the hosts, the caller asked Fr. Pedro Cunha, a member of the program, and received a rather unfortunate response.
Below you will read the dialogue held at the station with our emphasis and notes in red.
Father Peter, I have a very big doubt..- I have a son and he has become extremely religious, Catholic, minister of the, my son suddenly retorted. I mean he tells me: "Mom, I'm Catholic and I will continue to be truly Catholic", it's just that he turned into that kind of Pre-Vatican 2 Catholic, the Traditional one, well.
They go into a chapel because they don't have a church there, they go into a chapel where the priest celebrates with his back to the people, right. My daughter-in-law only goes using a veil and dress or skirt, and they always talk about going to a monastery. [translator note: speaking of monasteries is strange for the Novus Ordo here, outdated. Could the monastery be the monastery of Dom Tomas?] He had never missed a Mass on the network Vida or TV Aparecida, everyday, he was a regular, and today it is different. He tells me: "Mother, I pray the Rosary [15 mysteries] every day! I'm Catholic and I want to take back my religion", but I do not agree and do not know if I am wrong or not.
So here is a convert to Traditional Catholicism through watching regularly a televised Mass on Aparecida?
Up to this point, the caller has not pointed out if her son is a sede vacantist, apostate, or heretical, she has only mentioned his way of "living the faith" and that does not agree- out of ignorance- to the way she does. In this case, the request of the caller was a to clarify if her son was a Catholic because her ignorance and prejudice seems to state otherwise.
This appears to be your comments but if it isn't, then someone else is commenting -- who is that???
Father Pedro asked the host Rodolfo Ferraz, a clear fan of Liberation Theology (condemned by JP2), to respond to the caller. However, he gives a brief introduction: This is the Catholic Church, it is truly Catholic, but the people are very reactionary are they not? Rodolfo chuckles and is interrupted by Denise Procopio, a host of the program that wants to give an example of a situation that she believes is similar:
So Fr. Pedro asked Rodolfo to respond to the caller, but Procopio interrupts, by an unidentified narrator -- that's 5 people involved so far, not including you, correct?
"Let me just mention something I have here an email here I would like to read (presented as a doubt) except that in this one the mother says her son is an atheist. May I read? Because if you want there is already a correspondence.....
Notice no closed-quotes here, so is the quote finished, or is this next paragraph the unidentified narrator again? And the following paragraph -- is that back to Procopio speaking or what?
Then, we present the drama of a mother who wants to rekindle the faith in her son....Rodolfo asks Fr. Peter: would you like to say something and then I will speak?
"Look, in reference to this young man [atheist] I have no concern. I am much more concerned with the first question [traditionalist] than with the second. And you can say: Our Father, for the love of God. A person is Catholic and living their faith profoundly. People, religious fundamentalism is dangerous or even more dangerous than atheism. How come? Because religious fundamentalism can lead you to do crazy things. (As history proves chimes in Rodolfo.) Exactly.
How many people were speaking in this past paragraph? Two, or three or four? Who is saying what? We should be saying Freemasonic fundamentalism -- that will rattle their cage!
About the teen, he's going through a phase. You know what you have to do? Don't argue or try to convince him of anything. You have to be an excellent Catholic, and excellent Christian, in order to show him the living Gospel, not the spoken Gospel or the written Gospel.
If he gets it, rest assured that when he grows up a little more push the thing and he'll say "Oh my gosh." It's like those people who were Catholic and become evangelicals [surely the program knows about this] who do not want to know about Our Lady, right. Now, let's go back to the other case because I think it's important, concluded the priest.
So, there were supposed to be quotation marks closing before "...concluded the priest?" If so, where did the quote start, at "Now, let's go back...?" Or, earlier? Did the priest (Fr. Pedro) speak this whole paragraph? If not, who else was speaking, and what words did they say?
Fr. Pedro makes the initial conclusion that it is less worrisome to have an atheist son than one who participates in the Traditional Mass because the Traditional Mass is essentially fundamentalist.
So that was the unidentified narrator, correct?
Rodolfo: So, in fact, I share the concern of the priest today because there are many groups with fundamentalist bias. I do not, and I know that father does not, [I do not, and father does not WHAT??? Or, is "the priest" someone other than Fr. Pedro? There was a Fr. Peter earlier -- is that the same person as Fr. Pedro?] saying that this that this is the case with the group to which your son belongs, but tell us what happened? A few years ago (2007), Pope Benedict XVI authorized those well-formed communities to celebrate according to the Old Rite, that is the Rite of the Council of Trent, they could do it. It was because of the sensitivity of the pope to respect those communities who would like to maintain this way of praying. What ever happened was a proliferation that was actually contrary to what Pope Benedict XVI himself wanted.
No pastor of ANY RANK (including the pope) ever has had or ever WILL have the authority to forbid any priest anywhere in the world from offering the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass that has been in use from time immemorial, and which Pope St. Pius V referred to in Quo Primum. So what Benedict XVI wanted or didn't want is of NO INTEREST to anyone regarding this Mass. His "authorization" is a DEAD LETTER and of no concern to anyone. He had no power to claim that his "permission" is necessary for a priest to offer this Mass.
Now, is the following some OTHER narrator, because you said it isn't you, Centroamerica.
Hey, that's not what Benedict said in Summorum Pontificuм. Benedict XVI was emphatic that "permission to celebrate the Sacrifice of the Mass of the Mass following the typical edition of the Roman Missal promulgated by John XXIII in 1962 and never abrogated" [Note: period missing.] Rodolfo grabs article 3 of the docuмent which says that religious communities can have it, and says that it is the desire of the pope that only that group can access it. This is totally false. Article 2 states:
[google translation continues the article] So this is where you gave up translating, Centroamerica?
"In Masses celebrated without the people, the any Catholic priest of the Latin rite, whether secular or religious, may use the Roman Missal published by Blessed Pope John XXIII in 1962 or the Roman Missal promulgated by Pope Paul VI in 1970, and offer it every day with the exception of the Easter Triduum. To this conclusion by one or the other Missal, the priest does not need any authorization from the Apostolic See or from his Ordinary . "
Everything that goes beyond those words of Mr. Rodolfo is increased.
Here you have said that this should have been better saying:
The correct translation of that line would've said: "Anything more than that that would've been said are the words of Mr. Rodolfo."
The implication of the author here is that Mr. Rodolfo interpreted incorrectly the Summorum Pontificuм. Remember that it was at this point in the post that the google translation starts.
The question came handy because even yesterday (25/06) Pope Francisco hosted a group of religious (read Franciscans of the Immaculate) who just want to say Mass as well and received the Pope to tell them: 'No, even if the Church with Benedict XVI has authorized, I want you to ask permission because officially the rite of the Mass is that of Paul VI, the Second Vatican Council, the Church of the people of God where everyone participates." So, there is a return to that kind of movement that is dangerous and that is not the liturgy or why this group was formed by many older people in Latin or who would like the Pope wanted to observe, so keep praying.
This entire paragraph is meaningless to me, ^ I have already asked several questions about it in my previous post.
Intellectual dishonesty. There is no public speech of the Holy Father Francisco about it! What there are are speculations of evil people who would love the Pope to say this. If that were true, that would be directed at a speech that IBP has the obligation conferred by His Holiness Benedict XVI, celebrating the old rite exclusively.
It traditionalism by traditionalism. Pra affront to our way of being Church today, as if the wrong part with the people participating, with the priest facing the people. So unfortunately it is not only the celebration of the liturgy, but in a whole mindset that follows and criticizes the Second Vatican Council, which is the spirit in which the Church lives, and is celebrating Thanksgiving this council after 50 years.
So the Church abides in the unclean spirit of Vatican II, does it? I don't think so. That is where the Church does NOT abide, actually. The unclean spirit of Vatican II defines where the Church is NOT! THIS GUY HAS IT BACKWARDS.
Well, as stated earlier, the only son of telespectadora attends Mass in the extraordinary form, was not told anything about the critical missal of Paul VI that is not a work of the council itself, but concomitant to council.
Who, pray tell, is "telespectadora?"
Now comes the most disastrous part of the conversation: Father Pedro proves by A + B that do [you mean, "he does not?"] not even know what is Mass.
Father Pedro Cunha takes the floor:
Look, look Rodolfo, I know you have a call waiting, but I wanted to say something as a priest, I am a priest for 25 years, you've been my Masses, Denise has been there many Masses mine and I celebrate with joy, I celebrate with taste, celebrate with enthusiasm, but I celebrate the people, involving them with their lives and I do not celebrate Mass for me.
He doesn't celebrate Mass, then, he celebrates the people. He said so, right here.
E, and I honestly I can not imagine I turn my back on the people and a Mass like? That way and that so? How I'll do it? For the love of God. It is the people of God who is there. I am the presence of Jesus Christ to the people, so I have to embrace the people, being with him, sing to him, smile at him, talk to them and pray with them, because it is God's people, I'm not alone.
So what does he do when there are no people who show up? Stand there facing empty seats like an idiot?
He assumes that people do not have "participation" in the Mass of Pius V, poor, confuses the Mass with a little show. Of course the people "interact" in the Missal of Pius V, but not interact, nothing changes. Believe Father Pedro, nobody wakes up early on Sundays to watch their numerozinhos, or to see your beautiful face, since the center of mass is Christ, not the priest Pedro Cunha, nor the people. The Mass is the center of the dialogue between the people and the priest is an invention of Luther.
About priest living c 243_Francis_Ad_Orientam_IMAGEOstas for the people: Dear priest, how can you say something stupid like that? The Mass is the sacrifice of Christ for the people, not the people. The priest celebrates in persona Christi to Father God.
The phrase "Father God" is what the Mormons say. Watch out! Catholics say God the Father!
The Mass is the sacrifice of Christ therefore directed to God the Father for the people of God, understand the difference? Alias, Fr. Peter, as fond of distort the attitudes of the Pope, why not a little lecture about His Holiness Francisco celebrate "backs" (adopting their language) to the people?
Do you not know that this position is in the missal of Paul VI? Alias, usais the missal in his Masses or just go with pompons to help the joy, zest and enthusiasm?
Since the issue is the new path of the Church, could show us where the missal has the attitudes of the video below?
Note: This video makes clear why their masses are with "joy." ????
Another thing I am afraid, is hiding in a way, it seems, I am judging, perhaps one my sin, right? And I think I am judging myself, but sometimes I have the impression that some of these people hide and use it as a sort of curtain, the same veil, to hide other things, right? And it is not because of it - who am I to say that he saw? - Is a perception that I have, but I got the impression that it is as if to say this: Yes, I do well to realize that no one really who I am.
Soon, masses with pitch ball, as the video above shows the deepest of Father Pedro. ????
Rodolfo takes the word and says:
So, right Father? As I said, the liturgy is not only the rite, and a whole mindset, those gestures, those movements, those ceremonial, is a mindset for life. See what she (the caller) says: That son dropped his community he served as minister of the word, that the son's wife now can only wear a skirt and veil on liturgy is probably a separate church, on one side only the other men just women, ie, goes against the spirit of the council and it was not what Pope Benedict XVI to authorize the Mass of Trent.
Again, Trent does not need Benedict XVI or any other pope to 'authorize' it.
One more lie. The Missal of Paul VI is not the work of the council. The Missal of Paul VI was created in the same period, but is the work of Paul VI, not the council, as Sacrosanctum Concilium (Vatican II docuмent that talks about the liturgy) has not sent any time that we took a new Missal!
SC has not sent any time that we took a new missal? Huh?
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Jul 9, 2014 at 1:17pm
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Post by fatima13 on Jul 9, 2014 at 1:17pm
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Jul 9, 2014 at 1:09am Neil Obstat said:
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Jul 7, 2014 at 10:40am fatima13 said:
Let's take this out of the quote boxes since you're having a hard time with those.
I'll put my comments in blue. Ok mine will be in this color. My iPad makes the quotes on this forum confusing. Thanks for your patience.
I would like to present a recent event in Brazil that has scandalized many Catholics. I translated the key part up to the section where the author begins to defend the Motu Proprio. If you go to the link you will see the videos including one of the alleged priest's Mass. What follows after that section is a copy and pasted google translation as I was running out of time and need to focus energy else where. I apologize.
In my opinion, Brazil is suffering more from this crisis than any other American country. The masons have a strong grip on everything in this country. Certainly, the sell out [of] +Rifan does not help when he tells Catholics that they can go to both Masses and everything is okay. ------------Centroamerica
By "both Masses" are you referring to Indult and SSPX, or TLM and NovusOrdo?
+Rifan shamelessly and openly tells all Catholics that they can go to the Novus Ordo and his Insult Masses. [ugh pink! well it works.] Keep in mind that the dioceses are in open rebellion to Rome and refuse to change the words of the consecration back to "for many". Therefore, there are many scandals involved with this Modernist attitude of traitor +Rifan.
fidespress.com/brasil/tradicionalista-um-catolico-autentico-mas-de-segunda-categoria-diz-tv-aparecida/
Traditionalist: An Authentic Catholic but second class, says TV Aparecida
On June 26, 2014, the TV Aparecida program "Em Frente" received a caller, Vanya Bonatto. After greeting the hosts, the caller asked Fr. Pedro Cunha, a member of the program, and received a rather unfortunate response.
Below you will read the dialogue held at the station with our emphasis and notes in red.
Father Peter, I have a very big doubt..- I have a son and he has become extremely religious, Catholic, minister of the, my son suddenly retorted. I mean he tells me: "Mom, I'm Catholic and I will continue to be truly Catholic", it's just that he turned into that kind of Pre-Vatican 2 Catholic, the Traditional one, well.
They go into a chapel because they don't have a church there, they go into a chapel where the priest celebrates with his back to the people, right. My daughter-in-law only goes using a veil and dress or skirt, and they always talk about going to a monastery. [translator note: speaking of monasteries is strange for the Novus Ordo here, outdated. Could the monastery be the monastery of Dom Tomas?] He had never missed a Mass on the network Vida or TV Aparecida, everyday, he was a regular, and today it is different. He tells me: "Mother, I pray the Rosary [15 mysteries] every day! I'm Catholic and I want to take back my religion", but I do not agree and do not know if I am wrong or not.
So here is a convert to Traditional Catholicism through watching regularly a televised Mass on Aparecida?
Yeah, well this is what his mother claims. Remember that many people are finding Traditional Catholicism after being
Topic: Aparecida TV "Traditionalists worse than atheists" (Read 2908 times)