Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Last Tradhican on April 10, 2021, 11:37:26 AM
-
CI poster XavierSem wrote: concerning Protestantism "Any shred of Christianity is better than blank worldliness". They have a partial Christianity that will always be incomplete in itself. Catholic Christianity is Complete Christianity"
The above comment is totally Vatican II, sickening, a religion that is like a bottle of strawberry jam on a crumb of bread. Totally effeminate, devoid of all Catholic militancy. It is the mindset that got us to the ʀɛʋօʟutιօn of the 1960's. To bring Catholicism back in order, one needs to get away from 20th century teachings like the above comments. Feelings oriented people like the writer above should be avoided like the plague.
Is any shred of Protestantism really better than worldliness? Actually, if it was better, you would not have practically half of Catholic South America leaving the Church to become Protestant. If it was true, you would instead have Protestants converting in droves. The truth is that their false religion strengthens them, justifies them, in their resolve not to be Catholic. The truth is that a non-religious worldly can be more easily converted, because he is a blank slate:
St. Peter Julian Eymard – Bad Catholic vs Good Protestant
People often say, “It is better to be a good Protestant than a bad Catholic.” That is not true! That would mean that one could be saved without the true faith. No. A bad Catholic remains a child of the family, although a prodigal; and however great a sinner he may be, he still has a right to mercy. Through his faith, a bad Catholic is nearer to God than a Protestant, for he is a member of the household, whereas the heretic is not. And how hard it is to make him become one!
St. Peter Julian Eymard
-
it depends on what you mean by "better."
While Protestantism is not salvific, it will probably produce more natural goodness (which is "better") than secular humanism, in most cases.
That said, the idea that Protestantism may in some cases produce more threat to the Church and faithful needs to be considered.
-
As I wrote on the other thread, the second one tries to reconcile V2 with Tradition, the effort begins to poison the mind and will ultimately bring faith to ruin. It leads inexorably to the religious indifferentiam and moral relativism being put on display more and more by emotion-driven posters like XavierSem. This is also why SSPX is swirling near the bottom of the toilet bowl.
-
If you want a discussion, how about you start by quoting me correctly, and also mentioning I was quoting the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia. Put your disagreement with the authoritative source on the record at the same time, saying something like: "I strongly disagree with (totally condemn?) the Imprimatured 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia". Here's the article again, and I stand by what I said:
"The Catholic (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm) Church (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) of the twentieth century is vastly in advance of that of the sixteenth. She has made up her loss in political power and worldly wealth (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15571a.htm) by increased spiritual influences and efficiency; her adherents are more widespread, more numerous, more fervent (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15753a.htm) than at any time in her history (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07365a.htm), and they are bound to the central Government at Rome (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm) by a more filial affection and a clearer sense of duty (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05215a.htm). Religious (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11164a.htm) education (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05295b.htm) is abundantly provided for clergy (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04049b.htm) and laity (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08748a.htm); religious practice, morality (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10559a.htm), and works of charity (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03592a.htm) are flourishing; the Catholic (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm) mission-field is world-wide and rich in harvest.
The hierarchy (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07322c.htm) was never so united, never so devoted to the pope (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm). The Roman (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm) unity is successfully resisting the inroads of sects (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13674a.htm), of philosophies (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12025c.htm), of politics. Can our separated brethren tell a similar tale of their many Churches, even in lands where they are ruled and backed by the secular power (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02137c.htm)? We do not rejoice at their disintegration, at their falling into religious indifference (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07759a.htm), or returning into political parties. No, for any shred of Christianity (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm) is better than blank worldliness. But we do draw this conclusion: that after four centuries the Catholic (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm) principle of authority is still working out the salvation (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm) of the Church (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm), whereas among Protestants the principle of Subjectivism is destroying what remains of their former faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) and driving multitudes into religious indifference (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07759a.htm) and estrangement from the supernatural (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14336b.htm)." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm I have bolded the disputed portion for convenience.
So, firstly, go ahead, be bold, and say what you mean to say: do you condemn the Catholic Encyclopedia for saying such a thing?
Again, I am not impressed at all by such hollow bravado. What impresses me are those who work for Christian Unity and bring the separated back to the Church.
I wrote an article on Filioque for Orthodox Christians, who are like 99% Catholics. Have you ever helped souls see the Truth of the Filioque, Last Tradhican?
After reading my article, several Orthodox Christians, including former trads, came back home to the Roman Catholic Church.
I know many people like you: they burn out in a few years, go from a joyless rigorism lapsing into some sect or complete worldliness.
The poster Chris Tulsa on another forum said he himself knows 6 families, in a short time, who lapsed into Orthodoxy.
Never once did I ever defend a lapse, and a hundred times I have argued against those lapsing; and I know some who came back.
All I said is, indeed Evangelical Christians have partial Truth, and if they sincerely believe the Truth they have, they are Christians.
I did not say they are Catholic Christians, as only Catholics who have the whole 100% Truth are. What I said is proven from the CE.
Actually below is the exact quote which XavierSem didn't reproduce in whole above. What I quoted is from his own words, so XavierSem is just putting out another smoke screen. He is not fooling anyone here on CI but himself, so, if he can't stick to the subject of the OP, he should just stay out.
Hi, Quo Vadis. So do you disagree with the Catholic Encyclopedia then?
I hold that validly baptized Christians, who believe explicitly in the Trinity and Incarnation, confess Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and err in good faith, are real Christians. Msgr. Fenton says such can be saved if they are in good faith.
CE: "The Catholic (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm) Church (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) of the twentieth century is vastly in advance of that of the sixteenth. She has made up her loss in political power and worldly wealth (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15571a.htm) by increased spiritual influences and efficiency; her adherents are more widespread, more numerous, more fervent (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15753a.htm) than at any time in her history (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07365a.htm), and they are bound to the central Government at Rome (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm) by a more filial affection and a clearer sense of duty (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05215a.htm). Religious (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11164a.htm) education (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05295b.htm) is abundantly provided for clergy (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04049b.htm) and laity (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08748a.htm); religious practice, morality (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10559a.htm), and works of charity (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03592a.htm) are flourishing; the Catholic (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm) mission-field is world-wide and rich in harvest. The hierarchy (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07322c.htm) was never so united, never so devoted to the pope (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm). The Roman (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13164a.htm) unity is successfully resisting the inroads of sects (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13674a.htm), of philosophies (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12025c.htm), of politics.
Can our separated brethren tell a similar tale of their many Churches, even in lands where they are ruled and backed by the secular power (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02137c.htm)? We do not rejoice at their disintegration, at their falling into religious indifference (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07759a.htm), or returning into political parties. No, for any shred of Christianity (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03712a.htm) is better than blank worldliness. But we do draw this conclusion: that after four centuries the Catholic (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03449a.htm) principle of authority is still working out the salvation (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13407a.htm) of the Church (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm), whereas among Protestants the principle of Subjectivism is destroying what remains of their former faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) and driving multitudes into religious indifference (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07759a.htm) and estrangement from the supernatural (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14336b.htm)." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm)
"Any shred of Christianity is better than blank worldliness". They have a partial Christianity that will always be incomplete in itself.
Catholic Christianity is Complete Christianity, the full 100% Catholic and Apostolic Faith. But other Christians have valid Baptism etc.
Every effort should be made to bring separated Christians back to the Catholic and Apostolic Church. They remain deprived of many gifts.
God Bless.
-
Americans have been breathing the Protestant air for so long, that they see no danger, in fact, they see it as good. “Come to America, lose the faith”, is an old adage to describe what happened to a very large part of the Catholic immigrants.
The story is totally different for Spaniards. In Spain, Protestants were considered devils, gates of hell. It was the same in all their colonies in Latin America. After Vatican II, Rome ordered all the Catholic countries in Latin America to allow the Protestants in, and since that day, Protestant churches almost appear to have taken every Catholic. There is a “church” on every corner . The few good priests in South America are at war with the Protestants.
The mindset of a poisoned American Catholic like XavierSem (poisoned by a lifetime of unavoidable breathing of the Protestantism in the air) can never fathom the depth of his ignorance, his indifference, in boldly declaring such things as that Protestants are “our separated brethren”.
-
Xavier, do you believe that Christ uses other churches as means of salvation? And please respond as succinctly as possible.
-
Xavier, do you believe that Christ uses other churches as means of salvation? And please respond as succinctly as possible.
In a way that expresses what needs to be said clearly and without unnecessary words.
-
I see many coming in from South America being spiritually poisoned by the Novus Ordo.
Separate Masses and brainwashed to be good communists and are instructed to get welfare and liberalism. And the young children who go to Catholic schools and universities come out as social justice atheists.
-
Here I am speaking of Evangelical Christians who are not anti-Catholic, like President Tɾυmρ was, was pro-life and pro-Catholic
Firstly, Tɾυmρ is a politician. He’s not going to come out and bash Catholics. So his stances can’t be seen as real, only politically motivated.
.
These types of people you describe above really dont exist. If they do, they are 0.0001% of Protestants. Most Protestants are anti-Catholic, anti-Mary, anti-Eucharist, anti-pope. They are very open about it.
.
Back in the 1800s, when “separated brethren” was used, Protestants were much more catholic than they are today. In the last 100 yrs, Protestantism has degenerated into bible-worship, paganism (divorce, birth control), materialism (God Rewards Christians with money) and “fellowship” (love of your neighbor = religion). They are no better than the pagan, good-willed Greeks. Their “religion” is a sham and they no longer can be considered “Christian brethren” in any sense.
-
As I wrote on the other thread, the second one tries to reconcile V2 with Tradition, the effort begins to poison the mind and will ultimately bring faith to ruin. It leads inexorably to the religious indifferentiam and moral relativism being put on display more and more by emotion-driven posters like XavierSem. This is also why SSPX is swirling near the bottom of the toilet bowl.
A Resistance priest preached that protestantism was worse than no religion, and I observed Traditional Catholic opposition to that teaching first-hand. Maybe you're on to something -- just living in America is making a lot of Trads amenable to religious indifference "Freedom of Religion" and all that.
-
XavierSem wrote: "Any shred of Christianity is better than blank worldliness". They have a partial Christianity that will always be incomplete in itself.
Catholic Christianity is Complete Christianity, the full 100% Catholic and Apostolic Faith. But other Christians have valid Baptism etc.
Every effort should be made to bring separated Christians back to the Catholic and Apostolic Church. They remain deprived of many gifts.
Orestes Brownson 1874:
"There can be no more fatal mistake than to soften, liberalize or latitudinize this terrible dogma, "Out of the Church there is no salvation... If we wish to convert Protestants and infidels we must preach in all its rigor the naked dogma. Give them the smallest peg or what appears so, not to you, but to them, the smallest peg on which to hang a hope of salvation without being in or actually reconciled to the Church by the sacrament of Penance, and all the arguments you can address to them to prove the necessity of being in the Church in order to be saved will have no more effect on them than rain on a duck's back."
-
Pax Vobis, I want America to be Catholic,
So said all the modernists and Vatican II popes for now 60+ years with their "updated for our times pastoral evangelization" methods of softening, liberalizing, or latitudinizing the terrible dogma, "Out of the Church there is no salvation...
What was the result? 80%+ of Catholics left the Church, and as for conversions? Conversion to what? The Vatican II church is no different than Protestantism. Today the few real traditionalists have to work to convert the traditionalists in name only like XavierSem. That's an impossible job in and of itself. (P.S. - the truth is that only God converts, and all we can be are good examples in the way we dress and live. )
-
I'm in the hermeneutic of continuity camp as an Indult Traditionalist. I believe most of the affirmations of Vatican II, which are not infallible, can be interpreted in light of Tradition. In the case of the sentence you mention, take the Protestant minister who baptizes a baby. That baby dies baptized and goes to Heaven. So did Christ choose to use the Protestant minister in giving salvation to that baby? Yes, it seems He did.
Any individual can baptize. A Jew can baptize. A pagan can baptize. And yet Christ does not use their "churches" as means of salvation. To say He does is heresy.
-
Pax Vobis, I want America to be Catholic, but if that is not immєdιαtely possible, at least let it be generically Christian, Christ-loving, Bible-respecting, proclaiming Jesus as King.
I applaud your idealism, but you don't know history, therefore your utopia is flawed. America has ALREADY had the experiment of "christ loving" protestants everywhere, from the 1800s onward. Protestants proclaiming "Christ is King" is as productive as the Jews proclaiming His Kingship on Palm Sunday. It's all words and no action. They claim they follow Christ, yet reject His Eucharist, His Pope, His Mother and even the natural law. America had its height of religious fervor (both catholic and protestant) from the 1800s til early 1900s (when Our Lady of Fatima warned of WW1). But such fervor waned, and due to sins, God allowed WW1 and WW2. Then there was a short chance in the 50s to repent, post-WW2, but most of America then worshipped materialism and the "american dream", which ended in the chaotic, immoral, sɛҳuąƖ revolution of the 60s. V2 and the new mass was the proverbial last straw, which broke America's immoral back and pushed us into paganism.
.
The only answer now is pure, Catholicism. Protestantism is a failed experiment, just like communism. It leads to spiritual destruction and only those who are advancing OUT of it, can save their souls.
.
I for one would not be satisfied with Jesus as King alone without also having Mary as Queen. But I will take Jesus as King over having a godless, materialistic, liberal secularistic, lawless society.
This has already been tried for centuries, since the 1600s. Protestantism leads to nothing but materialism and individual spiritualism, and eventually, atheism, which we see all around us. Where do you think all this atheism came from? Bad catholics and bad protestants.
-
Xavier, let's also remember the major spiritual flaws of protestantism, all of which have contributed to V2 and our current social/religious chaos.
.
1. Protestants are not part of the Mystical Body of Christ and cannot help it, spiritually.
a. They don't believe or pray to the "communion of the saints" so they deny the Church Triumphant.
b. They don't believe or pray to the souls in purgatory, so they deny the Church Suffering.
c. They don't believe or pray for the Church, so they deny the Church Militant.
.
2. Protestants deny Christ's true Kingship, therefore they worship a false Christ.
a. Protestants deny the Eucharist; they cannot pray to the true Christ.
b. Protestants deny Christ's Mother and His Church; they cannot be his true followers.
c. Protestants deny grace, the sacraments and the Mass; they cannot worship Christ as He wants and is deserved.
.
3. Protestants cannot actively (or properly) fight the Kingdom of Satan.
a. Their "religion" is not supernatural at all; they only worship God on the natural level.
b. They deny the necessity for any and all supernatural works; their only good deeds are natural charity to their neighbor.
c. Thus, they are only capable of praying for natural things: end to abortion, happy families, end of addictions, sins, etc.
d. They cannot, in any way, truly fight satan or "the powers of darkness" on this earth, because their "religion's" purpose is purely natural.
.
4. Protestants contribute to wimpy Catholicism, by passively tempting Catholics to concentrate on natural goodness, or by the false notion of trying to please God through purely natural motives/means (i.e. non-catholic prayers for worldly desires).
.
One could go on and on, detailing the vast list of protestant errors and how they multiply into even more vast spiritual problems. Will some protestants eventually convert? Yes, but due to God's grace and their good will, not because of their false "religion".
.
Protestantism is a scourge on humanity. It creates divisions in society and leads to communism because
1) its errors lead to pride, each person being their own "interpretation" of scripture.
2) private interpretation leads to divisions, quarrels, and factions, a problem that will never be solved.
3) divisions and factions lead to an independence mindset, which destroys the catholic principle of community.
4) Independence in religion, leads to independence of thought, leads to independence of the natural law (i.e. sin).
5) Independence of natural law means a breakdown of order, the family and society.
6) A breakdown of society and family eventually leads to totalitarian govt, which arises to control a population that cannot control themselves (i.e. sinful people).
-
Most of today's Evangelicals are anti-Communist.
No they aren't. ƈσmmυɳιsm, in its essence is anti-catholicism. They can't philosophically reject ƈσmmυɳιsm because they too, are anti-catholic. "Good" protestants mostly accept socialism but only reject ƈσmmυɳιsm ECONOMICALLY. They only reject the end effects of ƈσmmυɳιsm (i.e. govt enslavement, loss of freedom) but they like the "freedom" aspects of socialism (i.e. no rules, no religion, do what feels right). It's like they are a druggie who wants the high but doesn't want to pay the $ or be hooked. Life doesn't work that way.
.
When someone rejects Catholicism, they are rejecting peace and societal order, even if they don't realize it. Protestantism leads to ƈσmmυɳιsm because all sin/heresy leads to slavery. Catholicism is the only philosophy, economic system and social structure which gives freedom.
-
What is the solution? ...To study apologetics and evangelism and work to help Protestants return to the Catholic Church.
Agree but only if the apologetics includes the true and dogmatic challenge to Protestants: “Unless you become a Catholic and accept the Church, you will not be saved. Only good Catholics go to heaven.”
.
Whenever I talk to Protestants, they start with their “dogma” that everyone must “accept Christ as their personal savior”. Then they bash Catholicism and I let them ramble for a bit. Then I tell them, “Yes, Catholics accept Christ as our personal savior and we go to mass, which is the unbloody Good Friday and we receive Him in Holy Communion in thanksgiving for His Mercy.”
.
They usually pause a bit, then continue on with anti-Catholic stuff. Then I interrupt them and ask the simple question: “Since I accept Christ I am saved, right?”
They respond “yes”. Then I ask, “So I can be saved in my catholic religion, right?” Inevitably, they agree.
.
Then I tell them they CANNOT be saved in their false religion because they have a false bible and deny all kinds of dogmas and ignore the Church Fathers. This usually ends the conversion.
.
.
Xavier, I don’t see how you’ll ever convert any Protestants because you believe that baptized Protestants can go to heaven. So they have no incentive to change. So the conversation about conversion is pointless.
.
But if you convert YOUR views to the true, EENS dogma, you will be able to challenge non-Catholics in the only true way. As it is, your errors may even prevent YOUR personal salvation, because as it is, you are a V2 heretic. I will keep praying for you.
-
In 99% of cases where non-Catholics baptize, it will be a Protestant minister who baptizes. The question is whether this statement can be understood in an orthodox manner: "the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church ... it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation." (UR #3)
The Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using Protestant ministers to confer Baptism, and therefore, salvation to e.g. infants. True. These means derive their efficacy from the very fullness of Grace and Truth entrusted to the Church. True. It is only through the Catholic Church, "the all-embracing means of salvation" that one can benefit fully from the means of salvation. I see these statements as reconcilable with Tradition. Later on, Dominus Iesus clarified Protestant ecclesial communities are not Churches in the proper sense.
Show me Traditional Catholic teaching that teaches that non-Catholic/Protestant religions/churches/ecclesiastical communities have any portion of the means of salvation. And that the Catholic Church has the all embracing means of salvation (ie. "the fullness" vs partial) as opposed to the only means of salvation.