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Author Topic: Anti-pope John XXIII  (Read 1644 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Anti-pope John XXIII
« on: December 21, 2021, 01:16:28 PM »
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    • On 28 October 1958, Cardinal Angelo Roncalli was elected pope, taking the name Pope John; the first to take the name John in 500 years. Why did no pope take the name of John in 500 years? The reason is that whatever pope took the name of John would have the same name as the last Pope John XXIII (1410-1415) who was declared an anti-pope by the Church. Why would Roncalli choose the name of an anti-pope?  John XXIII (Roncalli) convoked Vatican II and the rest is history. God makes things very clear for those with eyes to see.
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    Offline Comrade

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    Re: Anti-pope John XXIII
    « Reply #1 on: December 21, 2021, 01:37:42 PM »
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Anti-pope John XXIII
    « Reply #2 on: December 21, 2021, 02:13:00 PM »
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    • Then there is the white smoke scandal:

    In 1954 Count Della Torre, editor of the Vatican newspaper L’Osservatore Romano, warned [Pope] Pius XII of [Cardinal Angelo] Roncalli’s Communist sympathies. Other members of the “Black Nobility” expressed similar concerns.[5]
    Nor did Roncalli [later known as “Pope John XXIII”] escape the attention of the FBI and CIA. The agencies began to accuмulate thick files on him and the questionable activities of other “progressives” within the Vatican, including Monsignor Giovanni Battista Montini (the future Paul VI).
    …
    Pius XII had appointed Cardinal Giuseppe Siri as his desired successor.[7] Siri was rabidly anti-Communist, an intransigent traditionalist in matters of church doctrine, and a skilled bureaucrat….
    In 1958 [on October 26], when the cardinals were locked away in the Sistine Chapel to elect a new pope, mysterious events began to unfold. On the third ballot, Siri, according to FBI sources, obtained the necessary votes and was elected as Pope Gregory XVII.[8] White smoke poured from the chimney of the chapel to inform the faithful that a new pope had been chosen. The news was announced with joy at 6 P.M. on Vatican radio. The announcer said, “The smoke is white. . . . There is absolutely no doubt. A pope has been elected.”[9] …
    But the new pope failed to appear. Questions began to arise whether the smoke was white or gray. To quell such doubts, Monsignor Santaro, secretary of the Conclave of Cardinals, informed the press that the smoke, indeed, had been white and that a new pope had been elected. The waiting continued. By evening Vatican radio announced that the results remained uncertain. On October 27, 1958, the Houston Post headlined: “Cardinals Fail to elect pope in 4 Ballots: Mix-Up in Smoke Signals Cause False Reports.” [10]
    But the reports had been valid. On the fourth ballot, according to FBI sources, Siri again obtained the necessary votes and was elected supreme pontiff. But the French cardinals annulled the results, claiming that the election would cause widespread riots and the assassination of several prominent bishops behind the Iron Curtain.[11]
    The cardinals opted to elect Cardinal Frederico Tedischini as a “transitional pope,” but Tedischini was too ill to accept the position.

    Finally, on the third day of balloting, Roncalli received the necessary support to become Pope John XXIII….
    (Paul L. Williams, The Vatican Exposed [Amherst, NY: Prometheus Books, 2003], pp. 90-92)



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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Anti-pope John XXIII
    « Reply #3 on: December 21, 2021, 02:43:54 PM »
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    • John XXIII was declared a Saint by "Pope" Francis on April 27, 2014. In the Vatican II church his feast day is October 11, and 

    June 3rd - In the Evangelical Lutheran church of America, the Anglican church of Australia 
    June 4th - the Episcopal Anglican church of Brazil, the Anglican church of Canada, the Scottish Episcopal church, and Episcopal church (USA)

    Contact your local Masonic Lodge for the day they celebrate John XXIII's feast day.


    By their deeds you shall know them!





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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Anti-pope John XXIII
    « Reply #4 on: December 21, 2021, 03:12:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on December 21, 2021, 02:13:00 PM

    In 1958 [on October 26], when the cardinals were locked away in the Sistine Chapel to elect a new pope, 1) mysterious events began to unfold. On the third ballot, Siri, 2) according to FBI sources, ....
    3) But the reports had been valid. On the fourth ballot, 2) according to FBI sources, Siri again obtained the necessary votes and was elected supreme pontiff. But 4) the French cardinals annulled the results, claiming that the election would cause widespread riots and the assassination of several prominent bishops behind the Iron Curtain...
    1) Can't have a good conspiracy theory without "mysterious events" unfolding in there somewhere.
    2) "FBI sources?" Who got them involved and why? And why not publish info directly from some cardinals who were in the conclave as the source?
    3) Reports from who exactly?
    4) Who put the French cardinals in charge of deciding to annul the result - only the one elected can reject or accept the election, no one can annul it - and who is the one that let this cat out of the bag?

    I do not know for sure, but far as I've always heard, whatever happens within the conclave is like confession - all those within within the conclave are bound to secrecy under pain of mortal sin - so who is the guilty cardinal(s) that informed the FBI?
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    Offline Prayerful

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    Re: Anti-pope John XXIII
    « Reply #5 on: December 21, 2021, 06:42:33 PM »
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    Offline bodeens

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    Re: Anti-pope John XXIII
    « Reply #6 on: December 21, 2021, 06:59:22 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on December 21, 2021, 01:16:28 PM
    On 28 October 1958, Cardinal Angelo Roncalli was elected pope, taking the name Pope John; the first to take the name John in 500 years. Why did no pope take the name of John in 500 years? The reason is that whatever pope took the name of John would have the same name as the last Pope John XXIII (1410-1415) who was declared an anti-pope by the Church. Why would Roncalli choose the name of an anti-pope?  John XXIII (Roncalli) convoked Vatican II and the rest is history. God makes things very clear for those with eyes to see.
    How patient is God! He gave us multiple generations to wake up and the chastisements are finally catching up. 
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Anti-pope John XXIII
    « Reply #7 on: December 21, 2021, 08:34:43 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on December 21, 2021, 03:12:20 PM
    1) Can't have a good conspiracy theory without "mysterious events" unfolding in there somewhere.
    2) "FBI sources?" Who got them involved and why? And why not publish info directly from some cardinals who were in the conclave as the source?
    3) Reports from who exactly?
    4) Who put the French cardinals in charge of deciding to annul the result - only the one elected can reject or accept the election, no one can annul it - and who is the one that let this cat out of the bag?

    I do not know for sure, but far as I've always heard, whatever happens within the conclave is like confession - all those within within the conclave are bound to secrecy under pain of mortal sin - so who is the guilty cardinal(s) that informed the FBI?

    Here's your first research lead:


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    Offline SimpleMan

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    Re: Anti-pope John XXIII
    « Reply #8 on: December 21, 2021, 10:17:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on December 21, 2021, 03:12:20 PM
    1) Can't have a good conspiracy theory without "mysterious events" unfolding in there somewhere.
    2) "FBI sources?" Who got them involved and why? And why not publish info directly from some cardinals who were in the conclave as the source?
    3) Reports from who exactly?
    4) Who put the French cardinals in charge of deciding to annul the result - only the one elected can reject or accept the election, no one can annul it - and who is the one that let this cat out of the bag?

    I do not know for sure, but far as I've always heard, whatever happens within the conclave is like confession - all those within within the conclave are bound to secrecy under pain of mortal sin - so who is the guilty cardinal(s) that informed the FBI?

    I've wondered about that myself.  My pet theory is that they view themselves, as cardinals, as being somehow "above the law", or that they presume to "dispense themselves" from that requirement.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Anti-pope John XXIII
    « Reply #9 on: December 22, 2021, 12:54:03 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on December 21, 2021, 03:12:20 PM
    1) Can't have a good conspiracy theory without "mysterious events" unfolding in there somewhere.
    2) "FBI sources?" Who got them involved and why? And why not publish info directly from some cardinals who were in the conclave as the source?
    3) Reports from who exactly?
    4) Who put the French cardinals in charge of deciding to annul the result - only the one elected can reject or accept the election, no one can annul it - and who is the one that let this cat out of the bag?

    I do not know for sure, but far as I've always heard, whatever happens within the conclave is like confession - all those within within the conclave are bound to secrecy under pain of mortal sin - so who is the guilty cardinal(s) that informed the FBI?

    Those are some very good questions there!

    Very vague, doesn't exactly make sense, but makes for a good tabloid conspiracy theory!

    Not that I'm defending John XXIII. I think most Sedes (more than 99%?) believe "John XXIII is the first antipope of the current 63-year interregnum". There are a few fringe lunatics in the sede world, but I think it's pretty well agreed upon where the problems began.

    I'm not a Sede, but I think the majority of sedes nailed which Pope the problems began with. Trads have always believed the Crisis started (or, erupted to the surface) at Vatican II.

    But that doesn't change the fact that you make some very astute observations there. What does the FBI have to do with the Catholic Church hierarchy? The Federal Bureau of Investigation, of ONE COUNTRY (USA) has no jurisdiction in internal Vatican government matters.

    Why not get PETA involved? Or leak it to the American Radio Relay League (ARRL)? It would make as much sense as the FBI.

    I know the FBI is important and all, since America has a certain pre-eminence in the world. But in the Vatican? I seriously doubt America holds much sway in Vatican politics. There are way more Italian cardinals. 
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    Offline Mark 79

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    Re: Anti-pope John XXIII
    « Reply #10 on: December 22, 2021, 01:36:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on December 22, 2021, 12:54:03 AM
    …What does the FBI have to do with the Catholic Church hierarchy? The Federal Bureau of Investigation, of ONE COUNTRY (USA) has no jurisdiction in internal Vatican government matters.…
    When has legal jurisdiction ever kept ZOG from doing whatever to whomever they want?

    The Dept. of State Memorandum I posted above is clear evidence of meddling in conclaves.

    Why would we imagine the meddling ceases once the conclave is over?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Anti-pope John XXIII
    « Reply #11 on: December 22, 2021, 04:43:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mark 79 on December 21, 2021, 08:34:43 PM
    Here's your first research lead:



    All this does is beg more questions.

    "From Rome" - Who in Rome?
    "To Secretary of State" - Which one?
    "Vatican source expresses personal view next pope will be elected outside of conclave." - Really? Who on earth wants to research some unknown person's personal opinion?
    "Speculating on Pius XII's successor, source said college may well chose an old cardinal..."  - Do tell.

     This is all there has ever been to researching this matter - a big nothing burger. 

    Not knowing he was perpetrating it, the pioneering faithful in the 60s sought to petition PPVI to fix the atrocities that were happening within the Church, but once they discovered that he was the perpetrator, there were all kinds of theories having to do with the real pope being taken prisoner and replaced.

    What did that theory accomplish? Well it was another aid to the malevolent purposes of the enemy because what it actually accomplished was to add controversy, disagreements, factions, confusion, and disquietude into the chaos of the day among the already confused faithful. Seeing this is all it was doing, the theory died after only a few years - as should the Siri theory since, amazingly enough, it still only accomplishes the same thing.
      
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Anti-pope John XXIII
    « Reply #12 on: December 22, 2021, 04:49:16 AM »
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    • Quote from: SimpleMan on December 21, 2021, 10:17:17 PM
    I've wondered about that myself.  My pet theory is that they view themselves, as cardinals, as being somehow "above the law", or that they presume to "dispense themselves" from that requirement.
    You could be right, but is there any record of what happened within any other conclaves? Far as that goes, is there any record of what happened in PJXXIII conclave? All I've ever seen is speculations and opinions from unnamed sources making some pretty crazy claims that are impossible to ever substantiate.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Anti-pope John XXIII
    « Reply #13 on: December 23, 2021, 08:11:20 AM »
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    • I've never jumped on this particular bandwagon, but haven't there been posts here within the last year or so regarding possible connections between the US government and the Vatican?  If so, why would the FBI connection in the OP be so impossible?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Anti-pope John XXIII
    « Reply #14 on: December 23, 2021, 08:21:19 AM »
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    • It's not that it would be impossible imo, it's that there's no evidence of it - at least not that I've ever seen. The whole idea is based on nothing but conjecture.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse
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