Author Topic: Answering the Objections to the Sedevacantist Position (Read 6651 times)

Caminus · « **Reply #1 on:** September 26, 2009, 04:20:06 PM »

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Answer: Heretics and schismatics are barred by DIVINE LAW from the election to the Papal Office. Pope Pius XII lifted
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ecclesiastical penalties; he did not, would not, could not dispense from Divine Law.

This just begs the question.

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Answer: Nowhere does the Church determine how long a vacancy may exist in the See of Peter. Between the death of Pope Clement IV (November 29, 1268) and the election of Pope Gregory X (September 1, 1271), there was an interregnum of nearly three years. During the Western Schism, there were three claimants to the See of Peter; theologians teach that even if none of them were pope, that would not be against the promise of Christ or the teaching of perpetual successors.

The question is one of visibility. Making reference to a three year interregnum doesn't affect the visibility of the Church. But a 45 year deprivation of the entire hierarchy deprived of ordinary jurisdiction and the means to internally remedy the situation does in point of fact affect the visibility of the Church. Pointing out that the Church could theoretically be "reduced to a handfual of people" is not really relevant as it becomes the difference between the actual fact of such an occurance and the illicit determining of that state. The Church could be in such a state whilst the few remaining souls were not aware of it being such. The reason is that making such positive legal determinations is illicit in addition to the fact that the room for error and pride is immense beyond measure.

More later.

SJB · « **Reply #2 on:** September 26, 2009, 06:00:18 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

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Answer: Heretics and schismatics are barred by DIVINE LAW from the election to the Papal Office. Pope Pius XII lifted ecclesiastical penalties; he did not, would not, could not dispense from Divine Law.

This just begs the question.

Quote from: Caminus

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Answer: Nowhere does the Church determine how long a vacancy may exist in the See of Peter. Between the death of Pope Clement IV (November 29, 1268) and the election of Pope Gregory X (September 1, 1271), there was an interregnum of nearly three years. During the Western Schism, there were three claimants to the See of Peter; theologians teach that even if none of them were pope, that would not be against the promise of Christ or the teaching of perpetual successors.

The question is one of visibility. Making reference to a three year interregnum doesn't affect the visibility of the Church. But a 45 year deprivation of the entire hierarchy deprived of ordinary jurisdiction and the means to internally remedy the situation does in point of fact affect the visibility of the Church. Pointing out that the Church could theoretically be "reduced to a handfual of people" is not really relevant as it becomes the difference between the actual fact of such an occurance and the illicit determining of that state. The Church could be in such a state whilst the few remaining souls were not aware of it being such. The reason is that making such positive legal determinations is illicit in addition to the fact that the room for error and pride is immense beyond measure. More later.

Begs what question?

And, where are you getting this legal determinations stuff. Any judgment by a sedevacantist (or anyone else for that matter) is extra-juridical. That is the thing you can't get into your head.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #3 on:** September 26, 2009, 08:57:59 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

The question is one of visibility.

Well, the Novus Ordo IS visible. I will grant you that.

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Making reference to a three year interregnum doesn't affect the visibility of the Church. But a 45 year deprivation of the entire hierarchy deprived of ordinary jurisdiction and the means to internally remedy the situation does in point of fact affect the visibility of the Church.

And the Novus Ordo, visible as it is, solves this HOW? The Greek so-called Orthodox Church, the Lutheran Synod, The WCC, etc., are highly visible - and all do as much good for salvation as BXVI and his counterfeit "Catholic" Church.

IMO, the body and the soul of the Church, however the resident "theologians" want to define them, have been separated - just like Christ's body and soul were separated at death. At the very least, such has been permitted to APPEAR as if it has happened. Can I PROVE this, or wax theological in a way that is erudite, clear, concise, unquestionably orthodox in every detail, etc.? Not really.

CM · « **Reply #4 on:** September 26, 2009, 09:39:09 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

IMO, the body and the soul of the Church, however the resident "theologians" want to define them, have been separated - just like Christ's body and soul were separated at death. At the very least, such has been permitted to APPEAR as if it has happened.

If we call the physical infrastructure (buildings and those recognized as the hierarchy) the body, and we call the Faith and the faithful the soul, then indeed the soul has flown from the body, since the body is dead. Both the soul and the body suffer in different ways, yet both are awaiting a reunion and a resurrection in glory.

Caminus · « **Reply #5 on:** September 27, 2009, 01:01:16 AM »

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Begs what question?

That we are in fact dealing with "formal heretics."

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And, where are you getting this legal determinations stuff. Any judgment by a sedevacantist (or anyone else for that matter) is extra-juridical. That is the thing you can't get into your head.

Right, like playing judge, jury and executionerare merely "extra-judicial." Of course it's "extra-judicial" that's precisely the problem. I don't think you can quite wrap your head around this problem. Why do you act as if things like "jurisdiction" are of no real consequence any longer? Because you've already made up your mind and to hell with the rest?

CM · « **Reply #6 on:** September 27, 2009, 02:01:11 AM »

Unrepentant manifest heretics can hold no jurisdiction in Holy Church. One who commits multiple acts of manifest heresy, showing no sign of repentance, can be judged to be a formal heretic (that is both acting heretically [the matter] and doing so with obstinacy [the form]) with moral certainty.

And there you go again. Nobody is playing judge, jury or executioner. Sedevacantists, on the other hand, are playing "Watch out you're gonna get hurt by that guy! Run, run for your life!"

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #7 on:** September 27, 2009, 08:52:44 AM »

VISIBILITY:

Well, the Novus Ordo IS visible. I will grant you that, Caminus et alii.

And the Novus Ordo, visible as it is, solves the present puzzle HOW? The Greek so-called Orthodox Church, the Lutheran Synod, The WCC, etc., are highly visible - and all do as much good for salvation as BXVI and his counterfeit "Catholic" Church.

gladius_veritatis · « **Reply #8 on:** September 27, 2009, 10:03:24 AM »

Quote from: Caminus

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Begs what question?

That we are in fact dealing with "formal heretics."

So, you would posit the truly ridiculous idea that the incomprehensible destruction that we have witnessed/lived during the last 50 years or so flows from a little material heresy? They have destroyed everything, but are really just good-willed bunglers?

Interestingly, this is exact same idea that leads people to repeatedly vote for the Bushes and Obamas of the world, leads people to think men like Fr Cekada are, in the end, just good-but-flawed men who habitually-but-accidentally tear peoples' lives apart, etc.

The complete devastation at sgg.org/cult, in our nation, whether politically or financially, in the post-V2 Catholic world is NOT the work of good-willed bunglers.

SJB · « **Reply #9 on:** September 27, 2009, 12:49:36 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

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Begs what question?

That we are in fact dealing with "formal heretics."

You are assuming we are not. You think this is a absolute requirement...when it isn't. Where di you learn this? You don't give us any source for it.

Quote from: Caminus

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And, where are you getting this legal determinations stuff. Any judgment by a sedevacantist (or anyone else for that matter) is extra-juridical. That is the thing you can't get into your head.

Right, like playing judge, jury and executionerare merely "extra-judicial." Of course it's "extra-judicial" that's precisely the problem.

Why is that a problem? You don't say.

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I don't think you can quite wrap your head around this problem. Why do you act as if things like "jurisdiction" are of no real consequence any longer? Because you've already made up your mind and to hell with the rest?

Jurisdiction is a huge problem. And supplied jurisdiction doesn't solve that problem.

CM · « **Reply #10 on:** September 27, 2009, 03:11:59 PM »

Caminus, do you believe that demons no longer possess anyone in this world? Do you believe that our wrestling is against flesh and blood; but NOT against principalities and power, against the rulers of the world of this darkness, against the spirits of wickedness in the high places.

Do you believe that the spirits of wickedness in the "high places" means that they just fly around above the atmosphere or something?

Caminus · « **Reply #11 on:** September 27, 2009, 11:31:11 PM »

Quote from: gladius_veritatis

Quote from: Caminus
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Begs what question?

That we are in fact dealing with "formal heretics."

So, you would posit the truly ridiculous idea that the incomprehensible destruction that we have witnessed/lived during the last 50 years or so flows from a little material heresy? They have destroyed everything, but are really just good-willed bunglers?

Interestingly, this is exact same idea that leads people to repeatedly vote for the Bushes and Obamas of the world, leads people to think men like Fr Cekada are, in the end, just good-but-flawed men who habitually-but-accidentally tear peoples' lives apart, etc.

The complete devastation at sgg.org/cult, in our nation, whether politically or financially, in the post-V2 Catholic world is NOT the work of good-willed bunglers.

The suppressed premise is that only heresy can do that kind of destruction, which, as I'm sure you would concede, is not true.

Caminus · « **Reply #12 on:** September 27, 2009, 11:36:01 PM »

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You are assuming we are not. You think this is a absolute requirement...when it isn't. Where di you learn this? You don't give us any source for it.

Actually, I make no assumptions, that is what drives you and others crazy I think. The burden rests squarely upon you who make such accusations. If we're honest, we welcome the testing of our ideas and premises to see if they withstand the scrutiny of reason.

Where did you learn that anything less than formal heresy would expel a man from his office?

Quote from: Caminus

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And, where are you getting this legal determinations stuff. Any judgment by a sedevacantist (or anyone else for that matter) is extra-juridical. That is the thing you can't get into your head.

Right, like playing judge, jury and executionerare merely "extra-judicial." Of course it's "extra-judicial" that's precisely the problem.

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Why is that a problem? You don't say.

Because you cannot do evil that good may come result.

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I don't think you can quite wrap your head around this problem. Why do you act as if things like "jurisdiction" are of no real consequence any longer? Because you've already made up your mind and to hell with the rest?

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Jurisdiction is a huge problem. And supplied jurisdiction doesn't solve that problem.

Supplied jurisdiction isn't a deduction from reason, it is a legal fact which flows from the essence of the higher laws. It's not a "solution" to a "problem" in that sense. Where you start running into problems is when an opinion literally removes ordinary jurisdiction from the Church and then postulate highly improbable and incredible theories to hold up the notion.

CM · « **Reply #13 on:** September 27, 2009, 11:45:17 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

The suppressed premise is that only heresy can do that kind of destruction, which, as I'm sure you would concede, is not true.

That's a really good point Caminus. Heresy is indeed not the only destroyer of societies and souls.

But I would like to ask you something: What do you suppose the great apostasy that is foretold in Scripture and by the saints will be, if it is not already upon us, as I and many others believe it is, since we believe that the heresy is manifest and formal, and not to mention continuous?

Do you believe that it will be perpetrated by a man or men who claim to be the pope? How will they go about it?

How will these apostates of this future apostasy deceive anyone if they are not subtle in their deceits, at least at first?

I am genuinely curious to know your opinion.

Thanks,
David.

Caminus · « **Reply #14 on:** September 27, 2009, 11:51:51 PM »

It's a valid question, but I do not know the answer nor do I seek to know the answer. I just pray that I am not decieved if I am alive to see it. If I am living in those times, I make the same prayer. I fix my eyes squarely upon God and the Sacred and Immaculate hearts while the demons fly about destroying everything. If the whole world falls out from under my feet I will still suspend myself in divine contemplation.