Author Topic: answering the objection that sedevacantists are Protestant  (Read 1176 times)

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Offline Geremia

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answering the objection that sedevacantists are Protestant
« on: September 14, 2014, 09:25:20 PM »
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  • Some sedeplenists object that sedevacantists are Protestant because they seem to deny the papacy by denying a particular man is the pope. But the stronger objection would be to accuse sedevacantists for believing something like this:
    Quote
    The Lord then says, “And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock will I build my church.” In St. John 1 [:42], he calls him Cephas, “You shall be called Cephas,” Keph in Hebrew, Kepha in Chaldean, and Petros or Petra in Greek…all of which mean rock… Now the Lord wants to say, “You are Peter, that is, a man of rock. For you have recognized and named the right Man, who is the true rock, as Scripture names him, Christ. On this rock, that is, on me, Christ, I will build all of my Christendom, just as you and the other disciples are built on it through my Father in heaven, who revealed it to you.”

    In plain…one would say, “You say (on behalf of all) that I am the Messiah or Christ, the Son of the living God; very well then, I say to you, you are a Christian, and I shall build my church on a Christian.” For…the word “Christ” means both the Lord himself, as one sings, “Christ the Lord is risen, Christ ascended to heaven,” and he who believes in the Lord Christ, as one says, “You are a Christ.” Thus Luke in Acts… says that the disciples in Antioch were first called Christians, which is why names have survived such as, “Christians, Christendom, Christian faith,” etc. So here our Lord gives Simon, son of Jona, the name “man of rock” or “Christian” because he, from the Father, recognized the rock, or Christ, and praised him with his mouth on behalf of all the apostles.

    From this it is clear enough that by the building of his church on the rock or on himself, Christ meant nothing else but (as was said above, from the apostles Peter and Paul) the common Christian faith, that whoever believes in Christ is built on this rock and will attain salvation, even against all the gates of hell…This is the simple, single, certain understanding of these words….[ii]
    (source)

    Namely, that sedevacantists believe the Church is founded on St. Peter's (or his successor's) faith, not on the man himself.

    How do sedevacantists answer this objection/accusation?
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    Offline songbird

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    answering the objection that sedevacantists are Protestant
    « Reply #1 on: September 14, 2014, 09:40:50 PM »
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  • Define pope.  Vatican I did.

    The sacrifice of the Mass will end. How, by whom?


    Offline Jehanne

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    answering the objection that sedevacantists are Protestant
    « Reply #2 on: September 15, 2014, 06:22:23 AM »
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  • Quote from: Geremia
    Namely, that sedevacantists believe the Church is founded on St. Peter's (or his successor's) faith, not on the man himself.

    How do sedevacantists answer this objection/accusation?


    Sedevacantists hold that the Petrine office is what is permanent and not necessarily the man who claims to occupy it.  Is a President about the Constitution (for US-based members and others)?  Is a Pope above his Magisterium or the author of it?  Just as a President can be a traitor to his office (namely, protecting the Constitution), so, too, a Pope can betray his own Magisterium.  Sedevacantists "salute the position" and not necessarily "the person."

    Offline tmw89

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    answering the objection that sedevacantists are Protestant
    « Reply #3 on: September 15, 2014, 01:38:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Geremia
    Namely, that sedevacantists believe the Church is founded on St. Peter's (or his successor's) faith, not on the man himself.

    How do sedevacantists answer this objection/accusation?


    Sedevacantists hold that the Petrine office is what is permanent and not necessarily the man who claims to occupy it.  Is a President about the Constitution (for US-based members and others)?  Is a Pope above his Magisterium or the author of it?  Just as a President can be a traitor to his office (namely, protecting the Constitution), so, too, a Pope can betray his own Magisterium.  Sedevacantists "salute the position" and not necessarily "the person."


    I presume you meant "Is a President above the Constitution" -- interestingly enough, there are different schools of thought on the matter as much as there are different schools of thought on the pope question.
    "The 'promise to respect' as Church law the New Code of Canon Law is to respect a number of supposed laws directly contrary to Church doctrine." --Bishop Williamson

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    answering the objection that sedevacantists are Protestant
    « Reply #4 on: September 15, 2014, 04:56:53 PM »
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  • A sedevacantist cannot accurately be called a protestant because protestants deny the need for a papacy, protestants literally abrogate the very words of Our Lord.  Sedes think the man occupying the chair is a heretic and, therefore, is an illegal intruder.


    Offline Croix de Fer

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    answering the objection that sedevacantists are Protestant
    « Reply #5 on: September 15, 2014, 06:05:10 PM »
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  • Dogmatic sedevacantism vs sedeplenism is a false dichotomy. The best understanding of the Crisis in the Church is explained by sedeprivationism. Of course, the dogmatic sedevacante schizoids and the diabolically disoriented Conciliarists and crypto-modernists in SSPX will lambast this truth, while doing everything in their power to divert attention away from it.
    Blessed be the Lord my God, who teacheth my hands to fight, and my fingers to war. ~ Psalms 143:1 (Douay-Rheims)

    Offline Jehanne

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    answering the objection that sedevacantists are Protestant
    « Reply #6 on: September 16, 2014, 07:10:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: tmw89
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Geremia
    Namely, that sedevacantists believe the Church is founded on St. Peter's (or his successor's) faith, not on the man himself.

    How do sedevacantists answer this objection/accusation?


    Sedevacantists hold that the Petrine office is what is permanent and not necessarily the man who claims to occupy it.  Is a President about the Constitution (for US-based members and others)?  Is a Pope above his Magisterium or the author of it?  Just as a President can be a traitor to his office (namely, protecting the Constitution), so, too, a Pope can betray his own Magisterium.  Sedevacantists "salute the position" and not necessarily "the person."


    I presume you meant "Is a President above the Constitution" -- interestingly enough, there are different schools of thought on the matter as much as there are different schools of thought on the pope question.


    Yes, that is what I meant; sorry for the typo.  (I proof my posts during the 5-minute 'grace' period after positing; not sure why this one slipped through.)  Love your avatar, by the way; are you with the Anonymous hackactivist group?

    Offline OHCA

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    answering the objection that sedevacantists are Protestant
    « Reply #7 on: September 16, 2014, 09:48:25 AM »
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  • THIS

    Quote from: Geremia
    Namely, that sedevacantists believe the Church is founded on St. Peter's (or his successor's) faith, not on the man himself.


    DOES NOT say the same thing as THIS

    Quote from: Geremia
    Quote

    From this it is clear enough that by the building of his church on the rock or on himself, Christ meant nothing else but (as was said above, from the apostles Peter and Paul) the common Christian faith, that whoever believes in Christ is built on this rock and will attain salvation, even against all the gates of hell…This is the simple, single, certain understanding of these words….[ii]
    (source)


    Maybe I am missing Geremia's point.  But Geremia's quote does not accurately paraphrase the material he quoted--the two statements have completely different meanings.

    And what is your basis for saying this is what sedevacantists believe anyway?  I don't see it.


     

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