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Offline Lover of Truth

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Another Case Where the Catholic Church is Wrong
« on: July 30, 2013, 12:04:22 PM »
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  • The Catholic Encyclopedia (1910)
    Vol. 14, TOLERATION, J. Pohle

    But does the proposition that outside the Church there is no salvation involve the doctrine so often attributed to Catholicism, that the Catholic Church, in virtue of the principle, "condemns and must condemn all non-Catholics"? This is by no means the case. The foolish unchristian maxim that those who are outside the Church must for that very reason be eternally lost is no legitimate conclusion from Catholic dogma. The infliction of eternal damnation pertains not to the Church, but to God, Who alone can scrutinize the conscience. The task of the Church is confined exclusively to the formulating of the principle, which expresses a condition of salvation imposed by God Himself, and does not extend to the examination of the persons, who may or may not satisfy this condition. Care for one's own salvation is the personal concern of the individual. And in this matter the Church shows the greatest possible consideration for the good faith and the innocence of the erring person. Not that she refers, as is often stated, the eternal salvation of the heterodox solely and exclusively to "invincible ignorance", and thus makes sanctifying ignorance a convenient gate to heaven for the stupid. She places the efficient cause of the eternal salvation of all men objectively in the merits of the Redeemer, and subjectively in justification through baptism or through good faith enlivened by the perfect love of God, both of which may be found outside the Catholic Church. Whoever indeed has recognized the true Church of Christ, but contrary to his better knowledge refuses to enter it, and whoever becomes perplexed as to the truth of his belief, but fails to investigate his doubts seriously, no longer lives in good faith, but exposes himself to the danger of eternal damnation, since he rashly contravenes an important command of God. Otherwise the gentle breathing of grace is not confined within the walls of the Catholic Church, but reaches the hearts of many who stand afar, working in them the marvel of justification and thus ensuring the eternal salvation of numberless men who either, like upright Jews and pagans, do not know the true Church, or, like so many Protestants educated in gross prejudice, cannot appreciate her true nature. To all such, the Church does not close the gate of Heaven, although she insists that there are essential means of grace which are not within the reach of non-Catholics. In his allocution "Singulari quadam" of 9 December, 1854, which emphasized the dogma of the Church as necessary for salvation, Pius IX uttered the consoling principle: "Sed tamen pro certo...." (But it is likewise certain that those who are ignorant of the true religion, if their ignorance is invincible, are not, in this matter, guilty of any fault in the sight of God). (Denzinger n. 1647)

    . . . As early as 1713 Clement XI condemned in his dogmatic Bull "Unigenitus" the proposition of the Jensenist Quesnel: . . . no grace is given outside the Church. . . just as Alexander VIII has already condemned in 1690 the Jansenistic proposition of Arnauld: . . . (Pagans, Jews, heretics, and other people of the sort, receive no influx [of grace] whatsoever from Jesus Christ). . . Catholics who are conversant with the teachings of their Church know how to draw the proper conclusions. . .
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Another Case Where the Catholic Church is Wrong
    « Reply #1 on: July 31, 2013, 06:34:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    The Catholic Encyclopedia (1910)
    Vol. 14, TOLERATION, J. Pohle

    But does the proposition that outside the Church there is no salvation involve the doctrine so often attributed to Catholicism, that the Catholic Church, in virtue of the principle, "condemns and must condemn all non-Catholics"? This is by no means the case. The foolish unchristian maxim that those who are outside the Church must for that very reason be eternally lost is no legitimate conclusion from Catholic dogma. The infliction of eternal damnation pertains not to the Church, but to God, Who alone can scrutinize the conscience. The task of the Church is confined exclusively to the formulating of the principle, which expresses a condition of salvation imposed by God Himself, and does not extend to the examination of the persons, who may or may not satisfy this condition. Care for one's own salvation is the personal concern of the individual. And in this matter the Church shows the greatest possible consideration for the good faith and the innocence of the erring person. Not that she refers, as is often stated, the eternal salvation of the heterodox solely and exclusively to "invincible ignorance", and thus makes sanctifying ignorance a convenient gate to heaven for the stupid. She places the efficient cause of the eternal salvation of all men objectively in the merits of the Redeemer, and subjectively in justification through baptism or through good faith enlivened by the perfect love of God, both of which may be found outside the Catholic Church. Whoever indeed has recognized the true Church of Christ, but contrary to his better knowledge refuses to enter it, and whoever becomes perplexed as to the truth of his belief, but fails to investigate his doubts seriously, no longer lives in good faith, but exposes himself to the danger of eternal damnation, since he rashly contravenes an important command of God. Otherwise the gentle breathing of grace is not confined within the walls of the Catholic Church, but reaches the hearts of many who stand afar, working in them the marvel of justification and thus ensuring the eternal salvation of numberless men who either, like upright Jews and pagans, do not know the true Church, or, like so many Protestants educated in gross prejudice, cannot appreciate her true nature. To all such, the Church does not close the gate of Heaven, although she insists that there are essential means of grace which are not within the reach of non-Catholics. In his allocution "Singulari quadam" of 9 December, 1854, which emphasized the dogma of the Church as necessary for salvation, Pius IX uttered the consoling principle: "Sed tamen pro certo...." (But it is likewise certain that those who are ignorant of the true religion, if their ignorance is invincible, are not, in this matter, guilty of any fault in the sight of God). (Denzinger n. 1647)

    . . . As early as 1713 Clement XI condemned in his dogmatic Bull "Unigenitus" the proposition of the Jensenist Quesnel: . . . no grace is given outside the Church. . . just as Alexander VIII has already condemned in 1690 the Jansenistic proposition of Arnauld: . . . (Pagans, Jews, heretics, and other people of the sort, receive no influx [of grace] whatsoever from Jesus Christ). . . Catholics who are conversant with the teachings of their Church know how to draw the proper conclusions. . .


    Why are anti-Catholics who thumb down Catholic teaching from the Catholic Encyclopedia allowed to post here.  Why don't you go to an anti-Catholic site where you belong and thumb up some heresy?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline roscoe

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    Another Case Where the Catholic Church is Wrong
    « Reply #2 on: July 31, 2013, 06:44:29 PM »
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  • There is no such thing as a 'Feeneyite'.  :detective:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Another Case Where the Catholic Church is Wrong
    « Reply #3 on: July 31, 2013, 06:48:18 PM »
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  • Quote from: roscoe
    There is no such thing as a 'Feeneyite'.  :detective:


    A feeneyite is one who accepts the grave error of Feeney which teaches that it is impossible for one not baptized with water to obtain the Beatific Vision.

    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Matto

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    Another Case Where the Catholic Church is Wrong
    « Reply #4 on: July 31, 2013, 06:49:39 PM »
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  • By whose authority do you go on your crusades against "Feeneyites"? Get back in your place, layman.
    In a Station of the Metro
    The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
    Petals on a wet, black bough.


    Offline roscoe

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    Another Case Where the Catholic Church is Wrong
    « Reply #5 on: July 31, 2013, 06:51:01 PM »
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  • Pope Pius XII replies to Fr Feeney & supports him in the Bull Humani Generis. Anyone who trashes Fr Feeney (or claims that there is such a thing as 'Feeneyism' or such a person as a 'Feeneyite') is trashing the Pope as well.  :facepalm:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline roscoe

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    Another Case Where the Catholic Church is Wrong
    « Reply #6 on: July 31, 2013, 06:53:18 PM »
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  • Any piece of paper claiming that Fr Feeney was called to Rome or ex-communicated for not complying  :reporter:is a fraud.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Another Case Where the Catholic Church is Wrong
    « Reply #7 on: August 01, 2013, 06:48:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: roscoe
    Any piece of paper claiming that Fr Feeney was called to Rome or ex-communicated for not complying  :reporter:is a fraud.


    Not that it matters to you.  But the facts beg to differ.  :detective:

    If you do real detective work you will find out.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Another Case Where the Catholic Church is Wrong
    « Reply #8 on: August 01, 2013, 08:00:14 AM »
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  • Some material for those who want to do the research from CMRI web site:

    St. Alphonsus on Baptism of Blood and Desire
     ...Concerning Baptism of Blood and Desire An Extract from St Alphonsus Liguori’s Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-7 Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek...
     ...is distinguished into Baptism of water [“fluminis”], of desire [“flaminis” = wind] and of blood. We shall speak below of Baptism of water, which was...
    http://www.cmri.org/02-baptism_blood-desire_stalph.html
     

    Blood and Desire: Teachings of Popes, Councils, Fathers, Doctors, Theologians
     ...Baptism of Blood and of Desire From the teachings of the Popes, the Council of Trent, the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the Roman Martyrology, the Fathers,...
     ...all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God...
    http://www.cmri.org/02-baptism_blood-desire_quotes.shtml
     

    Editor's Letter for Issue #122 of The Reign of Mary
     ...this to mean that “Baptism of Desire” is sufficient to save an adult, who through no fault of his own, cannot receive Baptism of Water, but this is not...
     ...the necessary acts of supernatural faith and charity which accompany Baptism by desire. I find it interesting that Fr. Brian Harrison, the same Novus...
    http://www.cmri.org/rm122-editors_letter.html
     

    Adsum: Mater Dei Seminary Newsletter January 2004
     ...Baptism of Blood and of Desire From the teachings of the Popes, the Council of Trent, the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the Roman Martyrology, the Fathers,...
     ...all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them (sine eis aut eorum voto), through faith alone men obtain from God...
    http://www.cmri.org/adsum04-1a.html
     

    Decrees of Vatican II Compared with Past Infallible Church Teaching: Liturgy
     ...Church, he must still follow the natural law to be saved (implicit baptism of desire). It is evident, according to Catholic theology, that these false...
    http://www.cmri.org/02-v2_non-christian.shtml
     

    Decrees of Vatican II Compared with Past Infallible Church Teaching: Ecumenism
     ...is striving to overcome. Nevertheless, all those justified by faith through baptism are incorporated into Christ. They, therefore, have a right to be...
     ...and one shepherd...” in the sense that Christ thereby merely expressed a desire or a prayer which as yet has not been granted. The Church, they say, is...
    http://www.cmri.org/02-v2_ecumenism.shtml
     

    Traditional Catholic Magazine: The Reign of Mary (#117)
     ...One more discussion on baptism of desire: Neither baptism of desire nor baptism of blood are the sacrament of Baptism, but in cases of necessity they...
     ...Michael and Peter Dimond why they reject the Church’s teaching on Baptism of Desire and of Blood. As of June 1, 2004, there has been no reply or...
    http://www.cmri.org/rm117.html
     

    Traditional Catholic Magazine: The Reign of Mary (#115)
     ...Concerning Baptism of Blood and Desire Extract from St. Alphonsus Liguori: Moral Theology, Bk. 6, nn. 95-7 “Baptism, therefore, coming from a Greek...
     ...into Baptism of water [‘fluminis’], of desire [‘flaminis’ = wind] and of blood... Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by...
    http://www.cmri.org/rm115.html
     

    Traditional Catholic Magazine: The Reign of Mary (#116)
     ...Baptism of Desire and of Blood From the teachings of the Popes, the Council of Trent, the 1917 Code of Canon Law, the Roman Martyrology, the Fathers,...
     ...necessity of Baptism. As we can see from the following quotes, it is necessary for salvation to belong to the Catholic Church — at least by desire. It...
    http://www.cmri.org/rm116.html
     

    Traditional Catholic Magazine: The Reign of Mary (#118)
     ......Arguing as we sometimes do with those who deny (heretically) Baptism of Blood and of Desire, it is important to understand that God creates no one for...
    http://www.cmri.org/rm118.html

    Offline Cathedra

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    Another Case Where the Catholic Church is Wrong
    « Reply #9 on: August 02, 2013, 12:21:26 AM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Why are anti-Catholics who thumb down Catholic teaching from the Catholic Encyclopedia allowed to post here.  Why don't you go to an anti-Catholic site where you belong and thumb up some heresy?


    What the so-called "Catholic Encyclopedia" says there is most certainly NOT Catholic doctrine but pure modernist baloney.

    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    The Catholic Encyclopedia (1910)
    Vol. 14, TOLERATION, J. Pohle

    Otherwise the gentle breathing of grace is not confined within the walls of the Catholic Church, but reaches the hearts of many who stand afar, working in them the marvel of justification and thus ensuring the eternal salvation of numberless men who either, like upright Jews and pagans, do not know the true Church, or, like so many Protestants educated in gross prejudice, cannot appreciate her true nature.


    "Upright Jews (Christ-deniers) and pagans"??? "Upright Protestants"???

    And they know all this how???


    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    To all such, the Church does not close the gate of Heaven,
    Quote from: Lover of Truth


    FALSE!

    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    although she insists that there are essential means of grace which are not within the reach of non-Catholics.
    Quote from: Lover of Truth


    This Pohle just put full-blown Jews, pagans and Protestants into Heaven, and still says this.

    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    In his allocution "Singulari quadam" of 9 December, 1854, which emphasized the dogma of the Church as necessary for salvation, Pius IX uttered the consoling principle: "Sed tamen pro certo...." (But it is likewise certain that those who are ignorant of the true religion, if their ignorance is invincible, are not, in this matter, guilty of any fault in the sight of God). (Denzinger n. 1647)


    Yeah, they are not GUILTY of infidelity, but of course they DO use this to put them into Heaven, even when they say that there is no such thing as "sanctifying ignorance". Amazing!

    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    . . . As early as 1713 Clement XI condemned in his dogmatic Bull "Unigenitus" the proposition of the Jensenist Quesnel: . . . no grace is given outside the Church. . . just as Alexander VIII has already condemned in 1690 the Jansenistic proposition of Arnauld: . . . (Pagans, Jews, heretics, and other people of the sort, receive no influx [of grace] whatsoever from Jesus Christ). . . Catholics who are conversant with the teachings of their Church know how to draw the proper conclusions. . .


    Prevenient graces Pohle! Not sanctifying grace!

    Offline Jehanne

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    Another Case Where the Catholic Church is Wrong
    « Reply #10 on: August 02, 2013, 09:14:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Some material for those who want to do the research from CMRI web site:


    Who cares what the CMRI thinks?!  They (you) have no Pope.


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Another Case Where the Catholic Church is Wrong
    « Reply #11 on: August 02, 2013, 12:48:03 PM »
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  • Sorry to disappoint you but many do care and respect what CMRI says, so why are you so upset about them quoting True Popes, is it that you have become so accustomed to the Modern "popes" you resent CMRI would dare   recognize the True Popes.  

    Offline Emerentiana

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    Another Case Where the Catholic Church is Wrong
    « Reply #12 on: August 02, 2013, 01:51:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Matto
    By whose authority do you go on your crusades against "Feeneyites"? Get back in your place, layman.


    The teachings of Fr Feeney are CONDEMNED by the church!  Any of us, as laymen  can stand up for the true teachings of the church.
    Feenite discussions should be BANNED on this forum, just as protestant discussions are.   :heretic:

    Offline ClarkSmith

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    Another Case Where the Catholic Church is Wrong
    « Reply #13 on: August 02, 2013, 05:23:49 PM »
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  • Is he the same J. Pohle that taught at The Catholic University of America? I'm pretty sure that was one of the most liberal universities at the time.  John Ireland gave him the position.

    Offline roscoe

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    Another Case Where the Catholic Church is Wrong
    « Reply #14 on: August 02, 2013, 05:37:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: Emerentiana
    Quote from: Matto
    By whose authority do you go on your crusades against "Feeneyites"? Get back in your place, layman.


    The teachings of Fr Feeney are CONDEMNED by the church!  Any of us, as laymen  can stand up for the true teachings of the church.
    Feenite discussions should be BANNED on this forum, just as protestant discussions are.   :heretic:


    Fr Feeney taught EENS. As far as i can tell, that doctrine has not yet been 'condemned' by the 'church'.

    Any piece of paper claiming that Fr Feeney was called to Rome or ex-communicated for not complying is a Fraud. Therefore there is No Such Thing as 'Feeneyism or No Such thing as a 'Feeneyite'.
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'

     

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