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Author Topic: Aniversary of JPll sermon in Lutheran church  (Read 956 times)

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Offline insidebaseball

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Aniversary of JPll sermon in Lutheran church
« on: December 05, 2010, 01:09:42 PM »
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  • A fellow parishioner mentioned this to me today.  I don't have the exact quote, but I remember JPll said something like "Christ miracles don't prove His divinity."  It's still amazes me after reading todays Gospel where Christ tells John followers how the blind see, etc., proving His divinity to them.


    Offline albert cipriani

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    Aniversary of JPll sermon in Lutheran church
    « Reply #1 on: December 05, 2010, 05:23:35 PM »
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  • Quote from: insidebaseball
    A fellow parishioner mentioned this to me today.  I don't have the exact quote, but I remember JPll said something like "Christ miracles don't prove His divinity."  It's still amazes me after reading todays Gospel where Christ tells John followers how the blind see, etc., proving His divinity to them.


    Your fellow parishioner is correct.  Miracles do not prove divinity because saints have performed miracles and they are not divine.  The Old Testament also speaks of Moses going up against Pharaohs priests who performed the same miracle that Moses performe, having sticks turn into snakes.  So even the dark side can produce what appears to be miracles.  In our own time, the demonic Jim Jones seemed to have performed enough miracles to get 900 people to believe he was divine and drink his bitter cup of CoolAid.  

    In short, miracles are nothing more than attention getters.  They point to divinity and do not prove divinity.  Further analysis is required.  Paul himself said as much when he wrote that if Christ did not rise from the dead, Christians are the most pitiful of fools for believing in His divinity.  In other words, Christ’s miracles of healing the sick, the deaf, the blind (referenced in the gospel reading regarding St. John), and even raising the dead did not qualify as the kind of miracle that PROVED His divinity. – Sincerely, Albert Cipriani Who is Not a JPII Apologist


    Offline SouthpawLink

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    Aniversary of JPll sermon in Lutheran church
    « Reply #2 on: December 06, 2010, 02:28:19 PM »
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  • Christ's miracles are a proof of His divine mission:

    “In order to prove His divine mission Christ performed many historical and divine miracles, and proclaimed many prophecies. … Christ’s miracles were performed as a proof of His divine mission” (Tanquerey, A Manual of Dogmatic Theology, vol. I, sec. 112, p. 72; sec. 118, p. 75).

    Offline Telesphorus

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    Aniversary of JPll sermon in Lutheran church
    « Reply #3 on: December 06, 2010, 03:06:53 PM »
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  • Quote from: SouthpawLink
    Christ's miracles are a proof of His divine mission:

    “In order to prove His divine mission Christ performed many historical and divine miracles, and proclaimed many prophecies. … Christ’s miracles were performed as a proof of His divine mission” (Tanquerey, A Manual of Dogmatic Theology, vol. I, sec. 112, p. 72; sec. 118, p. 75).


    Correct, He claimed to be God, and showed that God was with Him by performing miracles, so that He should be believed.

    Offline albert cipriani

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    « Reply #4 on: December 06, 2010, 04:00:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: SouthpawLink
    Christ's miracles are a proof of His divine mission:

    “In order to prove His divine mission Christ performed many historical and divine miracles, and proclaimed many prophecies. … Christ’s miracles were performed as a proof of His divine mission” (Tanquerey, A Manual of Dogmatic Theology, vol. I, sec. 112, p. 72; sec. 118, p. 75).


    So I understand you to disagree with my understanding on the basis of your appeal to “A Manual of Dogmatic Theology.”  That would be your appeal to authority.  I did not make an authoritative argument but a reasoned argument.  

    If you are content with arguments from authority, God bless you and keep you.  I am not content with such arguments as I find that they can be cherry-picked to support almost any conclusion.  So unless you can respond to my reasoned argument with your own reasoned argument (so we can compare apples with apples as opposed to my apples and your cherries!), I won’t have anything more to say to you.  Take Care and God Bless, Albert Cipriani the Traditional Catholic


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    Aniversary of JPll sermon in Lutheran church
    « Reply #5 on: December 06, 2010, 04:54:59 PM »
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  • I see now why you didn't last long at FE.  :laugh1:

    I mean that in a good way.

    I have a shot at a reasoned response, but I can't type it now.

    Offline albert cipriani

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    « Reply #6 on: December 06, 2010, 05:41:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: stevusmagnus
    I see now why you didn't last long at FE.  :laugh1:

    I mean that in a good way.

    I have a shot at a reasoned response, but I can't type it now.


    Ah ha!  Can’t type it now, he?  Proof positive that your so-called “reasoned response” is neither reasoned nor a response.  You can’t even type, ergo, you can’t reason.

    How’s that for igniting the engines of banishment?!  

    In all honesty, much of the problem is in the words themselves.  For example, I said my response was “reasoned” as opposed to authoritative.  The use of that word, “reasoned” could be construed as meaning that his response was “un-reasoned.”  And that seems insulting.  Blood pressure rises etc.  I can’t help it if “reasoned” is the most accurate word to use in this context.  And most people can’t help but be insulted by the connotations of accurate words.  Alas and Alack, Albert Cipriani

    Offline trad123

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    Aniversary of JPll sermon in Lutheran church
    « Reply #7 on: December 06, 2010, 05:43:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: albert cipriani
    So I understand you to disagree with my understanding on the basis of your appeal to “A Manual of Dogmatic Theology.”  That would be your appeal to authority.  I did not make an authoritative argument but a reasoned argument.[/b]


    Article 4. Whether the miracles which Christ worked were a sufficient proof of His Godhead?

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/4043.htm#article4
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline insidebaseball

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    Aniversary of JPll sermon in Lutheran church
    « Reply #8 on: December 06, 2010, 06:54:42 PM »
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  • Thanks Trad123 that was both logical and reasoned.  Can we also say authoritative?

    Offline SouthpawLink

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    Aniversary of JPll sermon in Lutheran church
    « Reply #9 on: December 13, 2010, 08:15:44 PM »
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  • Albert Cipriani,
    It is not out of the question to appeal to authority when the discussion at hand concerns the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

    The Church herself makes use of both positive (Scripture, Fathers - authoritative) and speculative (reasoned) methods in the science of theology.  What's more, with regard to my particular quotes, the first statement was actually in the form of a thesis, so it'd be hard to be taken out of context.

    As for a reasoned argument concerning the matter at hand, miracles done by other men were performed only with the help of or permittance by God, whereas the miracles performed by Christ were done by His own power.  And what's more, He communicated this power to others who performed miracles in His name.  None of the people in your examples performed miracles in their own name.  I would agree with you, however, that the acts themselves should be analyzed to determine their preternatural or divine nature.