Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: And you thought it all began with Vatican II  (Read 8658 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline rowsofvoices9

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 496
  • Reputation: +261/-0
  • Gender: Male
And you thought it all began with Vatican II
« on: December 11, 2012, 03:24:45 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sorry:

    http://www.usml.edu/liturgicalinstitute/exhibits/hillenbrand%20exhibit/sacred%20heart%20parish.html

    Sacred Heart Parish Pastor
     

    “The Mass is not so much our worshipping, as Christ worshipping through us, the articulated Praise in the Trinity, the Word made flesh. We must not be silent lest the Word be hushed in us. It is time to get on with the task.”

     – Reynold Hillenbrand, 1956




    Hillenbrand is shown at left in Sacred Heart Church after the 1957 parish renovation. As a pioneer of liturgical reform, Hillenbrand sought permission to say Mass “facing the people” in the late 1950s, shown here in the short interim period when tabernacles were still placed on altars.

    The 1957 renovation of Sacred Heart Church

    Before


    After


    http://ordorecitandi.blogspot.com/2009/07/peter-anson-and-versus-populum.html

    Peter Anson and versus populum

    I was both amused and saddened last week to read comments of suprise in response to a poem that I understand first appeared in the April 1965 edition of the Homiletic and Pastoral Review. The title of the poem is 'The Updated Church' and the first two stanzas run thus:
    Latin’s gone
    Peace is too
    Singin’ and shoutin’
    From every pew.

    Altar’s turned round
    Priest is too
    Commentator’s yellin’
    “Page Twenty-two!”

    A brief search of the Web will yield thousands of words quite incorrectly blaming versus populum celebration on Paul VI's Novus Ordo Missae and the Second Vatican Council. In the current climate of revisionism (some might decide that 'revisionism' is rather too much of a euphemism and simply call it lying) of course it is de rigeur to equate the 1970-2002 missal with versus populum and quietly ignore the fact that celebration versus populum was a popular post Second World War fashion, its modern origins being several decades earlier.

    Perusing my copy of Peter Anson's 'Fashions in Church Furnishings' (1960) I came across his writings and a drawing about VP.



    Anson had great skill with the pen and a picture does, as has been said, paint a thousand words. I do like the way he has captured the ladies' hats and the flow of the servers' albs. I was particularly struck by this passage:

    "Every young priest who was caught up in the movement popularizing the liturgy, wasted no time in erecting at least a temporary altar in the middle of the church, where the Sunday Masses were celebrated, usually facing the people. Elsewhere the original high altar in the chancel was pulled down. Sometimes a simple stone holy table was subsituted, but not always."

    Two pages later (p 364) another paragraph describes the liturgical scene on the Continent post-war:



    But of course everything was hunky-dory, tickety-boo and 'organic' development until the wicked Council and Paul VI?


    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus


    Offline rowsofvoices9

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 496
    • Reputation: +261/-0
    • Gender: Male
    And you thought it all began with Vatican II
    « Reply #1 on: December 11, 2012, 03:41:08 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • http://southernorderspage.blogspot.com/2012/04/father-robert-taft-sj-strikes-sound.html

    1954


    Opponents of the modern liturgy could use a history lesson, says this scholar of the church's prayer. Overall, the liturgical reform has been a great success.

     If any scholar could claim a ring-side seat to the liturgical reform of the 20th century, it would have to be Father Robert Taft, S.J. Taft recalls being surprised when he arrived in Europe in 1964 to see liturgical change already well underway. "Worker priests in Western Europe were celebrating the liturgy in the vernacular because it was the only way to come into contact with the de-Christianized workers there," he says. "The notion of celebrating the liturgy for them in Latin was simply absurd."

     A Jesuit ordained in the Russian rite of the Byzantine Catholic Church in 1963, Taft eventually focused his studies on the ancient liturgies of the Christian East, work that has led him to a profound appreciation of the diversity of Christian liturgy in the past and present. "There is no ideal form of the liturgy from the past that must be imitated," he says. "Liturgy has always changed." Tracking those changes has been his life's work, a career that has included decades of teaching all over the world as well as hundreds of books and articles.

    http://ordorecitandi.blogspot.com/2008/11/versus-populum-conciliar-practice.html



    One of the great myths of the contemporary liturgical crisis is that Mass facing the people was a product of the Second Vatican Council.

     Sadly both the 1962ists and the more avant garde modernists both identify the Council as the originator of the practice in their revisionist rewriting of liturgical history. In fact the Council docuмents say nothing about versus populum.

     Actually the practice was relatively widespread by the 1950s in parts of the USA and Continental Europe. A picture, it is said is worth a thousand words. So for the benefit of readers here are several.Ellard's 'Men at Work at Worhip' that was published in 1940. So that picture was probably from the late 1930s. The picture below is taken from the same author's 1948 work 'The Mass of the Future':



    Again, from his 1956 book 'The Mass in Transition' the picture below shows a sanctuary that has been reordered, significantly, before the Council. The fact that a book can bear the title 'The Mass in Transition' is rather indicative. Yet the 1962ists would have us believe everything in the Church was wonderful and perfect until the Council?

    http://aomoi.net/blogg/2012/09/



    From the June 28, 1962 issue of Commonweal Magazine, a provocative call for liturgical reform by an organizer of the North American Liturgical Week recently held in Seattle in conjunction with the World’s Fair, imagining how liturgy might be celebrated 50 years from now.


    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus


    Offline rowsofvoices9

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 496
    • Reputation: +261/-0
    • Gender: Male
    And you thought it all began with Vatican II
    « Reply #2 on: December 11, 2012, 04:43:57 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Now we turn to Church architecture.

    http://www.sacredarchitecture.org/articles/dont_blame_vatican_ii/

    Don’t Blame Vatican II

    Our problems began some decades before the Second Vatican Council convened: they began with the embrace of modernist architectural principles by contemporary architects and, more disastrously, by the liturgical “experts” who have insisted on laying down the rules and regulations for all new Catholic churches built in America.



    A good example can be found in a small, but particularly illustrative little booklet published in 1952 by the Liturgy Program at the University of Notre Dame called Speaking of Liturgical Architecture.

    Although published in 1952, the lectures contained in Speaking of Liturgical Architecture were actually delivered several years earlier, during the summer of 1947, at “the first liturgical summer school at the University of Notre Dame.”4 Given that these lectures were delivered some fifteen years before the Second Vatican Council began, whatever faults Fr. Reinhold may be guilty of, it would be something of a stretch to blame them on the Council.

    And those ideas are identifiably and undeniably modernist.

    Form Follows Function: Functionalism and Modern Church Architecture







    The Ideal Interior of the Modern Church: Church-in-the-Round


    “[T]he ideal parish church is the one in which the architecture creates the ideal setting for full participation.” Now, the notion of “full and active participation” is one that most people associate with the Second Vatican Council. But here it is already in 1947.

    Fr. Reinhold proposes for new churches. The “ideal setting” for a church, according to this pre–Vatican II liturgist, is the fan-shaped congregation, or what is sometimes called “church-in-the-round.”



    http://szakralis.wordpress.com/english/



    The thousand year old Hungarian Christianity has played a dominant role in the liturgical reformation movement: the 34th International Eucharistic Congress took place in 1938 in Budapest. In the first third of the XX Century rather significant construction works have been done by the Catholic Church in Hungary. The modernist works, formed in the progressive style of the era, evangelized the magnitude of the church and its role played in the social life of Hungary between the two world wars by following the most updated principles both in architecture and in liturgy.[1] Several churches have been built with the interpretation of the early-Christian traditions, showing progressive liturgical principles and new arrangements of the architectural function – all this well before the II. Vatican Council. (Fig. I)


    Figure I : Budapest-Városmajor, roman catholic church, 1932-1933. Architects: Aladár and Bertalan Árkay

    http://www.rpinet.com/wforum/index.php?t=tree&th=3991&rid=0&S=5a070f345ee178c096b26b0e819e088b



    Liturgy and Architecture (1961). The foreward is by F.W. Dillistone, then-Dean of Liverpool.

    Liturgy and Architecture reads like a handbook, although the author is at pains to deny that this is his intent. The book's premise is that the Church of England had lost an opportunity to build proper new churches after World War II, sticking with a tried-and-true program of Victorian piles; whereas on the Continent, great men like Le Corbusier, Dominikus Bohm, and Fritz Metzger had been building radically traditional/honest/pastoral/fill-in-the-blank churches for decades, and it's high time England got onboard. Hammond comments on dozens of new church plans (included) to illustrate how they succeed or fail, in his view, to embody the goals of the Liturgical Movement.

     Some of the plans that merit praise in Hammond's view would rightly be considered atrocious by any of the many friends of the NEW Liturgical Movement. Yes, the pilgrimage chapel at Ronchamp makes an appearance -- you knew it would -- but there are others as well. Parabolas, reinforced concrete arches, butcher-block altars, octagonal churches, asymmetrical naves... all these familiar postmodern notes and more find approval in this book, which again, was written in the late 1950's (the UK printing date was 1960). Look in horror on the church plans and photographs that would inspire "wreckavators" and professional liturgists for decades to come.

     Below are a few choice quotes from the book. As you're reading them, bear in mind what Mark Allen Torgerson has noted in his own book, An Architecture of Immanence (p. 74): "Hammond and his group produced materials that integrated liturgical renewal with modern church design, all in an ecuмenical atmosphere. Their work was widely distributed and read in Europe and the United States, helping to set the stage for far-reaching reforms that would emerge from Vatican II."

    Quotes from Peter Hammond's Liturgy and Architecture (1961):

     "It is fast becoming a commonplace to observe that western Christendom is in the throes of a new Reformation. Not since the sixteenth century has there been such a calling in question of received traditions or such a ferment of experiment. The sources of Christian tradition are being examined afresh in the light of modern biblical and historical scholarship. Theology has begun to shake off the influence of scholasticism and is rediscovering its biblical, patristic and liturgical roots. There is a new sense of meaning of the Church as the people of God and the body of Christ. A deepened understanding of the eucharist, and its social implications, has transformed the life of many a parish and has effected something of a revolution in the celebration of the liturgy itself."
     (p. 13)

     "In a growing number of churches during the last few years the altar
     has been brought forward, away from the east end of the church, and
     the ministers face the people across the altar. Such an arrangement
     of the sanctuary has been restored not simply because it is more
     primitive but because it embodies, as the medieval layout does not, a
     biblical understanding of what the Church is and what it does when it
     assembles on the Lord's Day."
     (p. 26)

     "Monumental crosses, mural paintings and assertive decoration of any
     kind can detract from the primacy of the altar just as effectively as
     the sculptured reredoses, statuary, candlesticks and vases which have
     so often in the past degraded the holy table of the eucharistic
     banquet into a pedestal. The cardinal principle to be observed in the
     decoration of the house of God is that all decoration should be
     related to liturgical function; it must never become an end in
     itself."
     (pp. 38-39)

     "The problem [of renovation] is most acute where a congregation has
     inherited a late-medieval parish church, or one planned in conformity
     with the principles of the Cambridge ecclesiologists... How, in such
     a building, is the Christian layman to recover his proper liturgy?
     How is he to be transformed from a passive spectator into an active
     participant in the eucharistic action?"
     (p. 138)

     "It indeed has to be recognized that there is sometimes no wholly
     satisfactory solution to the problems posed by medieval or Gothic
     revival churches. It is often necessary to choose between modern
     liturgical and pastoral needs, on the one hand, and aesthetic and
     antiquarian principles on the other. The two cannot always be
     entirely reconciled. It may well be necessary to do violence to the
     architectural character of the domus ecclesia in order to build up the
    ecclesia, the spiritual house constructed of living stones, which
     gives the building its meaning and purpose."
     (pp. 138-139)

     "Many of these German adaptations (of late-medieval or Gothic
     churches) have involved the transformation of cruciform churches by
     removal of the high altar from the eastern arm of the building to a
     new position in the crossing."
     (p. 139)

     "Among the more spectacular transformations of nineteenth-century
     churches are several which have involved the demolition of the whole
     north wall of an existing, or damaged, nave and the building of a new
     nave and sanctuary at right angles to the original axis of the
     church."
     (p. 140)
    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus

    Offline rowsofvoices9

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 496
    • Reputation: +261/-0
    • Gender: Male
    And you thought it all began with Vatican II
    « Reply #3 on: December 11, 2012, 04:58:59 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • http://www.adoremus.org/0404ArchitectureWorship.html



    Chapel of Nôtre Dame-du-Haut

    French Paradigm for Neo-Modernist Catholic Churches

    The key building to be aware of in analyzing the neo-modernist churches is the post-World War II chapel of Nôtre Dame-du-Haut, designed by Le Corbusier at Ronchamp in southeastern France.

    During the 1920s, Le Corbusier rejected traditional architectural paradigms and substituted the idea that machines designed by engineers should become the valid models for buildings. His aphorism that "a house is a machine for living" was reflected in the platonic geometries of his seminal residences, such as the Villa Savoye of 1928-31.2 After the Second World War, Le Corbusier softened the geometrical severity of these icons. With the chapel at Ronchamp he introduced the curvilinear, syncopated, and monumental structures that marked his last two decades. Designed and built between 1950 and 1955, Nôtre Dame-du-Haut became instantly famous. It continues to signal a turning point in every textbook on the history of Western architecture.3

    http://www.abbeyvocations.com/blog/2011/10/happy-50th-anniversary/

    In 1958 the monks of Saint John’s began construction of the new Abbey church, designed to accomodate the growing monastic community as well as the student body. It has since become one of architect Marcel Breuer’s iconic works and a singular piece of American church architecture.

    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus

    Offline rowsofvoices9

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 496
    • Reputation: +261/-0
    • Gender: Male
    And you thought it all began with Vatican II
    « Reply #4 on: December 11, 2012, 06:44:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • http://fratres.wordpress.com/tag/spirit-of-vatican-ii/



    http://www.galinsky.com/buildings/latourette/index.htm

    La Tourette Monastery  Le Corbusier 1953-1957

















    http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2011_09_01_archive.html

    Banqueting House in London. An example of how the form of the Catholic Counter-Reformation became that of the wider culture, even in protestant England. Below: the opposite case, the wider culture has influenced the culture of faith in this Catholic church built in the 1950s (pre Vatican II!).



    Below: a crucifixion from 1912 by Emile Nolde, which reflects the style of the mainstream art movement of the time.

    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus


    Offline lefebvre_fan

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 458
    • Reputation: +234/-9
    • Gender: Male
    And you thought it all began with Vatican II
    « Reply #5 on: December 11, 2012, 07:03:02 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Fascinating. When I saw the information about the "fan-shaped" or "diamond-shaped" architecture, a light immediately went on in my head. "That's how the Novus Ordo church I grew up with was structured [the original church burnt down, and they had to rebuild it in the 1970s]. So I guess that's no accident after all!" It's also an ugly brick building, like the one in the photograph, with a Spartan interior.
    "The Catholic Church is the only thing which saves a man from the degrading slavery of being a child of his age."--G. K. Chesterton

    Offline rowsofvoices9

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 496
    • Reputation: +261/-0
    • Gender: Male
    And you thought it all began with Vatican II
    « Reply #6 on: December 11, 2012, 08:49:31 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • http://badgercatholic.blogspot.com/2012/04/st-norbert-abbey-series-spotlights.html

    [img]http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-IUjVVwPqXw4/T4XCPuOQZII/AAAAAAAAEwU/ayMDAcl10w0/s640/st_norberts_abbey_green_bay4.png[/img
    The new abbey dedicated in 1959 (before Vatican II mind you)  We've seen that the 1950s was a decade of devastation in this state for beauty in churches.

    The smoke of Satan was seeping through the cracks long before Vatican II.  While it is undeniable that the Council contributed to some of the problems the Church has undergone for the last 50 years, IMHO the crisis would have happened even if the Council was never convened.  Vatican II was the culmination of the liturgical movement that had been ongoing for at least 100 years.  It is clear that the sewage percolating underneath the surface was already beginning to overflow and the pipes were about to burst.  Now we know why the Blessed Virgin wanted the third secret to be made public no later than 1960.  By then is was becoming increasingly obvious even to laity that things were not as they should be in God's sanctuary.

    There are many reasons for the crisis in the Western Church.  Off the top of my head I can think of a few of them.  

    1.  The rise of secularism and secular education.   For the first time in history the younger generation began attending college en mass.  This trend began of course after WWII with the returning vets and the GI bill. However, the number of people of my parents generation that attained higher education was relatively minuscule.  Here these young people became exposed to all sorts of new ideas and philosophies as well as people from many different cultural backgrounds.  It is no secret that the Marxists and other leftists had been infiltrating institutions of higher learning long before the boomer's arrived.  The liberal professors also did a great deal of brainwashing too.  The Church was viewed as being a left over relic of the dark ages and no longer relevant in the post-modern world.  In former times the Church could exert a great deal more influence and control over the unwashed ignorant peasants.  No longer would the Church dictate what was to be believed and what standards of morality were to be followed.   After all we're educated now, we don't need the Church, we can think for ourselves.  Might as well chuck the Church the dustpan of history.  

    2.  The sɛҳuąƖ revolution with its attendant drug culture.  The pill especially along with coed dorms.  I don't think it's necessary to go into too much explanation here.  Although I am of the belief that the massive infusion of drugs into society was done with the deliberate intent of dumbing down the populous so that those in power could have greater control.

    3.  Feminism.  For the first time mothers began entering the work force in large numbers.  As a result children were often left to the care of strangers who didn't give a rats a$$ about them.  This increasingly led to the breakdown of the family.  With both parents at work all day, by the time they arrived home in the evening they were too pooped out and spent less and less time with their kids.  Parental influence and discipline definitely waned.  Because of the parents guilt feeling,  they increasingly rewarded their kids with material objects as a way to compensate for their neglect.  Another thing, the kids were so indulged and pampered it's no wonder they became the spoiled "Me generation".  No longer were they expected to work hard to get ahead.  Instead everything was handed to them.  

    5.  Materialism.  With increased wealth came greater greed.  Families were no longer content to own one T.V. one phone, one vehicle etc.  Even the houses weren't big enough anymore.  Bigger became better.  This caused an exodus to the suburbs.  Prior to this, people lived in close knit neighborhoods which consisted primarily of ones own ethnic group.  Everyone knew  and trusted their neighbors and could rely on them in times of need.  Also the strong connection to ones local parish, which formally was the center of family life and exerted a great deal of positive influence was broken.

    The civil rights movement.

    I'm sure there are many other reasons that have contributed to the crisis.  Many some others on this board can add to this discussion.
    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus

    Offline songbird

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4670
    • Reputation: +1765/-353
    • Gender: Female
    And you thought it all began with Vatican II
    « Reply #7 on: December 11, 2012, 10:51:15 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I was shown a book about 7 years ago.   On the first page, behind onion skin paper was a black and white photo inside a catholic church showing the priest facing the people and the picture was taken in 1940 in Missouri or Minnesota, can't recall.  It is true, nothing happens over night. Gradual


    Offline Capt McQuigg

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 4671
    • Reputation: +2624/-10
    • Gender: Male
    And you thought it all began with Vatican II
    « Reply #8 on: December 11, 2012, 12:43:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Fascinating photos, Rows.  

    But your conclusions aren't correct.  Vatican II is the cause of all this because after Vatican II it was widespread.  

    As for the smoke of satan, well, satan's always trying to smoke us out isn't he?  Satan had a good run during the Arian crisis and with the rise of protestantism.

    As for materialism, if the Vatican officially renounces Christ the King (as it did with religious liberty and pluralism) then what are people supposed to do?  A devout Catholic will sacrifice and not eat meat on Fridays to honor Our Lord's salvific death on the cross and the devout will donate plenty to the Holy Church and refrain from mortal sins of the flesh to the best of their ability for the love of Christ and His Church, His Mother, and for the love of God but for the mere sake of going without?  I don't think so.

    Most of the ideas of liberalism are traced back to the Enlightenment and the French Revolution.  The Church's widespread destruction took place in the 1960's so there's a 250 year gap there.  

    The liturgical movement and the destroyers weren't brought to life like Frankenstein's monster at Vatican II but what exactly did Vatican II do to slow them down?  

    However, I want to reiterate, this is an outstanding thread, Rows!

    Offline PerEvangelicaDicta

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2049
    • Reputation: +1285/-0
    • Gender: Female
    And you thought it all began with Vatican II
    « Reply #9 on: December 11, 2012, 01:46:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Outstanding, RowsofVoices9.
    This new architecture thing...masonic style.  Last year I was shocked by how corrupted the novus ordo churches had become, when I visited one.  I was surrounded by all types of masonic symbolism and orientation, complete with the black and white duality checkerboard floor, placement of the columns and tabernacle, pseudo-religious imagery that mirrors their symbols; i.e., all seeing eye 'disguised' as a round window with what I guess was supposed to be the Holy Ghost, but it's placement, etc was just too obvious, if you know how masonic temples are structured.  In this case, the priest was genuinely  oblivious to it.  If I understand correctly, the designs for a new church, or church renovations, are made way above the pastor's level - at the very least, at the diocesan level, correct?  That would explain why so many of the n.o. priests are ignorant of the true purpose of modern design; that is, to worship the prince of this world. Their god is not our God.
    I'd no idea it was so blatant now, but most people are completely oblivious to it.  That's why hiding in plain sight is so easy.  No one in that sector knows the true Faith, most don't even think satan is a major problem, and I'd hazard a guess all would say this is just conspiracy talk.

    We also visited a California mission in San Diego.  The old mission church was not exempt by this blasphemy, which saddened me beyond words.

    Offline rowsofvoices9

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 496
    • Reputation: +261/-0
    • Gender: Male
    And you thought it all began with Vatican II
    « Reply #10 on: December 16, 2012, 04:04:40 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • @Capt.

    Quote
    But your conclusions aren't correct. Vatican II is the cause of all this because after Vatican II it was widespread.


    I have to disagree with this statement.  While it is true that the modernists plans went into full bore after Vatican II, the Council itself is definitely not the cause.  The modernists had been busily working behind the scenes for decades to bring about changes in the Liturgy.

    Quote
    As for the smoke of satan, well, satan's always trying to smoke us out isn't he? Satan had a good run during the Arian crisis and with the rise of protestantism.


    Actually the smoke of satan has been present within the Church since its inception.  There have alway been wolves in sheep's clothing.

    Quote
    As for materialism, if the Vatican officially renounces Christ the King (as it did with religious liberty and pluralism) then what are people supposed to do? A devout Catholic will sacrifice and not eat meat on Fridays to honor Our Lord's salvific death on the cross and the devout will donate plenty to the Holy Church and refrain from mortal sins of the flesh to the best of their ability for the love of Christ and His Church, His Mother, and for the love of God but for the mere sake of going without? I don't think so.


    I know this will sound like a pat answer but, the docuмents of Vatican II must be interpreted in the light of sacred tradition.  Vatican II taught nothing new nor changed any of the Church's mageristerial teachings.   As lay person I'm personally not qualified to interpret them.   And yes a devout person will continue to support the Church financially and make all those sacrifices you mention.

    Quote
    Most of the ideas of liberalism are traced back to the Enlightenment and the French Revolution. The Church's widespread destruction took place in the 1960's so there's a 250 year gap there.


    Can't disagree.

    Quote
    The liturgical movement and the destroyers weren't brought to life like Frankenstein's monster at Vatican II but what exactly did Vatican II do to slow them down?


    Basically nothing and the fault rests solely at the feet of the Princes of the Church.

    I'd like to continue this thread with actual statistics showing exactly when the Church's influence began its decline.  That will take a little more research.  I hope to post more later.

    Here's another view of the ugly monstrosity known as the Chapel of Notre Dame du Haut.  To me it looks like a big barn with an attached silo.




    The new abbey dedicated in 1959 (before Vatican II mind you)  We've seen that the 1950s was a decade of devastation in this state for beauty in churches.

    No the attempted destruction of the Catholic Church began well before Vatican II.  I say attempted because we all know that the gates of hell will never prevail.
    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus


    Offline SaintAidan1

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 83
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    And you thought it all began with Vatican II
    « Reply #11 on: December 16, 2012, 09:16:32 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: rowsofvoices9

    I know this will sound like a pat answer but, the docuмents of Vatican II must be interpreted in the light of sacred tradition.  Vatican II taught nothing new nor changed any of the Church's mageristerial teachings.   As lay person I'm personally not qualified to interpret them.   And yes a devout person will continue to support the Church financially and make all those sacrifices you mention."

    -Interpret?
    Nostra Aetate flat out defies and contradicts 2000 yrs of Church orthdoxy. Period
    If We cant Trust Jєωs and Freemasons how to tell us to pray, who can we trust?
    The photos of those Jєωs responsbile  for Vatican 2 are on the website below.

    http://traditionalcatholic.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=vatican2&action=display&thread=52





    ============================================

    Quote"I'd like to continue this thread with actual statistics showing exactly when the Church's influence began its decline.  That will take a little more research.  I hope to post more later.'

    -U actally need Stats on the disaster aka Vatican 2 has wrought?




    ===========================================

    Quote" No the attempted destruction of the Catholic Church began well before Vatican II.  I say attempted because we all know that the gates of hell will never prevail"

    -Consiering that all 15 of 16 Heresies in the history of the Church were introduced by Jєωry, Id say you are correct.

    Offline rowsofvoices9

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 496
    • Reputation: +261/-0
    • Gender: Male
    And you thought it all began with Vatican II
    « Reply #12 on: December 17, 2012, 01:38:37 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Meanwhile here's more proof that the Church was infected by modernism long before the Council.


    Brasilia Cathedral was inaugurated by President Juscelino Kubitschek in 1960.


    The interior of Brasilia Cathedral


    One of Oscar Niemeyer's earliest projects, built in the early 1940s, came to be known as the "Pampulha architectural complex." It was commissioned by Juscelino Kubitschek, who would later become president of Brazil. At the time, he was mayor of Belo Horizonte. The complex included a church, which was initially refused for consecration by the Roman Catholic Church.


    A church, pictured circa 1955 on the grounds of the presidential palace, is connected to the palace by an underground hallway


     St. Mary’s of  the Lake but often known as St. Quonset or “the Pressure-Cooker Church” because of the summer temperature inside.”

     Nonetheless, the church was there, and by September of 1949, was preparing fro its formal blessing by the Bishop, as reported in Our Sunday Visitor in October, 1949

    Perhaps I'm not being fair, the above was after all temporary.  Honestly it's no worse than any of the other Church's I've posted images of.


    St. Joseph’s Ukrainian Catholic Church served by Redemptorists of the eastern rite. Completed in 1963.


    1963 – Holy Family Church, Winnipeg, Manitoba The Council wasn't even over yet when these two (this and the above) were built.


    Our Lady Star of the Sea and St Winefride, Amlwch is a Roman Catholic church in Amlwch, a town on the island of Anglesey, north Wales. It was built in the 1930s to a design by an Italian architect, Giuseppe Rinvolucri


    St. Joseph Ukrainian Catholic church is a is most known for its ultra-modern thirteen gold domed roof symbolizing the twelve apostles and Jesus Christ as the largest center dome.
    Built in 1956


    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus

    Offline conquistador1492

    • Newbie
    • *
    • Posts: 45
    • Reputation: +0/-0
    • Gender: Male
    And you thought it all began with Vatican II
    « Reply #13 on: December 18, 2012, 12:28:40 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Although I appreciate the pictures on this thread, I think a more important focus instead of liturgical changes should be dogmatic changes and less importantly diciplinary changes. This includes:

    -Pius XII changing eucharistic fast rules from midnight fast to three hour fast

    -1917 code allowing non catholics to attend catholic schools with catholic children. I believe this is an evil code.

    -1917 code allowing catholics to attend non catholic funerals, including Christ denying Jєωs and buddhists. This is a scandal and can easily lead to a denial of the salvation dogma.

    -1917 code allowing catholics to receive communion from heretical priests, like the greek schismatics. This is a scandal and condemned by the bible, church fathers, and earlier dogmatic councils.

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8276/-692
    • Gender: Male
    And you thought it all began with Vatican II
    « Reply #14 on: December 18, 2012, 02:16:07 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • You've got a nice sample of some key points here, rovs9, but you're
    missing a lot too...   No question, the whackos were hard at work long in
    advance of Vat.II, and the Council did not specifically advocate the
    architectural innovations..  But that's not the root of the problem!  

    Dogma is the root, my friend.



    Quote from: rowsofvoices9

    I know this will sound like a pat answer but, the docuмents of Vatican II must be interpreted in the light of sacred tradition.  Vatican II taught nothing new nor changed any of the Church's mageristerial teachings.   As lay person I'm personally not qualified to interpret them.   And yes a devout person will continue to support the Church financially and make all those sacrifices you mention.




    Either you're entirely brainwashed, or else you're a plant by the
    opposition.

    To say "the docuмents of Vatican II must be interpreted in the light of
    sacred tradition," is a half truth, and a half truth is a whole lie.   So it's
    a lie.   Now, either it's your lie, or it's one you have believed, but read
    St. Paul in Romans and see:  if you consent to those who lie so, you are
    just as guilty.

    Now,  how is it a lie?  Well,,,, the ambiguity of the Vat.II docs is the basis
    of their error, and, the more ambiguous a proposition is, the more it can
    legitimately be interpreted in opposite ways.  In the worst case, it can
    be interpreted in equally opposite ways, at which point it is meaningless.

    E.g.  Take the infamous proposition, which is a heresy, by the way, that
    "the Church of Christ... subsists in the Catholic Church."  By your
    axiom, "the docuмents of Vatican II must be interpreted in the light of
    sacred tradition," we would be required to say that this proposition can
    only be acceptable in a manner that is in accord with our dogma.  But to
    say that means that the obvious denial of our dogma, stated here, is to
    be deliberately ignored.  Therefore, in order to conform with your axiom,
    the legitimate meaning of the words must be rejected wholesale.  In
    other words, read it but do not believe it.  Is that okay with you?  

    Then you have the temerity to say that "Vatican II taught nothing new
    nor changed any of the Church's [magisterial?] teachings."  Now, I'm sorry,
    but that is flatly false.  Vatican II most certainly did teach new things.  
    Lots and lots of new things.  But at the same time, it also "taught" the
    opposite things, but in different places.  Whenever the Romans have
    been questioned on this point, for a given topic, they never address the
    part of the Vat.II docs that teaches the heresy, but always go directly to
    the other part that re-affirms the traditional teaching.  Therefore, you,
    rowsofvoices9, are wont to do precisely as the Romans have done, and
    insist only on discussing the part of the docs that are not questionable.  

    Isn't that true?!  

    Then you conveniently bow out of the discussion with this canard:  "As [a]
    lay person I'm personally not qualified to interpret them."  

    At least we can know that you are (a) lay person.  Thank you.  

    Well, then as (a) lay person, you're not qualified to defend them, either.



    So take a break.  Admit it when you're wrong.  Or are you just too
    pompous of "lay person" [sic] to do the right thing?  





    Quote
    I'd like to continue this thread with actual statistics showing exactly when the Church's influence began its decline.  That will take a little more research.  I hope to post more later.


    So, you're going to insist on running around in circles over when they
    decided to turn the altar around or move the tabernacle or tear out the
    confessionals,  but you're not going to take a look at doctrinal problems,
    nay, heresies, in the Vat.II docs?  Well, then, you're wasting your time.  



    You heard it here first.



    Quote
    No the attempted destruction of the Catholic Church began well before Vatican II.  I say attempted because we all know that the gates of hell will never prevail.


    You're absolutely right.  The attempted destruction of the Catholic Church
    began in the Garden of Eden..   Does that make Vatican II irrelevant?  

    Not if it's still being read and applied as if it's any good for anything!


    And while the gates of hell will never prevail, there is no guarantee
    that the gates of hell will not operate insomuch as to deceive if it were
    possible, even the elect..  In fact, quite the opposite is assured.

    The gates of hell shall operate in such a way so as to deceive if
    possible, even the elect. "For there shall arise false Christs and false
    prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to
    deceive if possible, even the elect.  Behold I have told it to you,
    beforehand"
    (Matt. xxiv. 24-25).




    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.