Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Agobard on September 13, 2014, 12:23:40 PM
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I thought this was going to be interesting. I was wrong.
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Wow, not even sure what to say...
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I did not read the article, which is on an atheistic website and is full of naturalistic presuppositions. Basically, the article says that modern genetic research disproves the Genesis account of Creation, and therefore, Catholicism cannot be true. Of course, what it ignores is the fact Adam & Eve were specially created, and hence, they possessed in their germ lines all of the genetic diversity which exists in the World today. More here:
http://unamsanctamecclesiamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2011/04/adam-eve-were-absolutely-real-as-was.html
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...........have they found that missing link yet?
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Sure. Just like "Dark Matter" has "proven" the veracity of the "Big Bang."
Scientism strikes again.
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Is there a rule on this forum that we are required to have one resident dingbat active at all times?
What the OP with his blather about "haplogroups" seems to be using are terms from the science of genetics. I don't know of a branch that calls itself "ancestry".
Haplogroups are real, but they can't be pushed to reveal what the poster says they do. Acknowledging that there are certain physical laws that are true in context doesn't require one to accept evolution, for example.
His rantings are neither good science nor good Theology.
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Jehanne wrote:
Of course, what it ignores is the fact Adam & Eve were specially created, and hence, they possessed in their germ lines all of the genetic diversity which exists in the World today.
Well, that's just an idea, and has no basis in the doctrine of the Church or in science or anything else. So it's not a 'fact'.
We don't know the genome of Adam or of Eve. It's just as plausible that God added genetic diversity (say, at the moment of a curse) at any other time or in any other way. The big difficulty with your idea (not a 'fact') is that is would have made Adam and Eve, after the Fall even, non-homo-sapiens genetic freaks. It would have required more miracles upon more miracles to make their physical bodies possible....and then similar miracles for every human being for many generations to come.
The Church knows nothing about any such idea.
So, maybe it's not a 'fact'? Maybe it's just your personal notion?
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Jehanne wrote:
Of course, what it ignores is the fact Adam & Eve were specially created, and hence, they possessed in their germ lines all of the genetic diversity which exists in the World today.
Well, that's just an idea, and has no basis in the doctrine of the Church or in science or anything else. So it's not a 'fact'.
We don't know the genome of Adam or of Eve. It's just as plausible that God added genetic diversity (say, at the moment of a curse) at any other time or in any other way. The big difficulty with your idea (not a 'fact') is that is would have made Adam and Eve, after the Fall even, non-homo-sapiens genetic freaks. It would have required more miracles upon more miracles to make their physical bodies possible....and then similar miracles for every human being for many generations to come.
The Church knows nothing about any such idea.
So, maybe it's not a 'fact'? Maybe it's just your personal notion?
It's just an idea, which is one answer, among many, to the statements of atheists who claim that modern genetics disproves the Creation story in Genesis.
P.S. The fact which I was referring to is the fact that Adam & Eve were specially created by the Triune God "out of the dust of the Earth"; such is a dogmatic fact of the Catholic Faith.
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You said 'hence'.
Hence: synonyms: consequently, as a consequence, for this reason, therefore, ergo, thus, so, accordingly
So, you connected your personal idea with a dogma of the faith.
I don't think that's a good practice.
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It's just a theological opinion, which may be factual or not. Sometimes, theological opinions are expressed as if they "are facts," but that is why everyone who reads any author should read them in their entirety as much as possible. For instance, I state on my blog that my thoughts are all theological opinions, namely, those of a layperson. If my ideas cause others to think more deeply (or, even more clearly), then my blog will have served its purpose; if not, you can dismiss me and my writings and simply move on to someone else!
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Ah, it's good to know that your blog is the hermeneutical key to interpreting your posts.
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I do not consider myself that important, not at all. Point is, certain atheist authors, including those who are referenced in the OP are missing the obvious, namely, that naturalistic presuppositions do not disprove the Creation story in Genesis or any other miracle of the Bible or any other miracle of the Catholic Church.
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Very true...but they are used to criticizing us for making unfounded flights of fancy to explain away apparent difficulties, when instead we could just stand on the actual Tradition of the Faith. Notions of Adam and Eve as possessing supergenomes that would mean death for a regular human stands on nothing and I think any atheist in the debate would see that and pounce on it mercilessly.
We need to be gentle as doves and cunning as snakes to deal with the world.
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It's not a "flight of fancy" and no more an appeal to the miraculous than the Virgin Birth of our Lord, which atheists also consider to be a "flight of fancy." I don't know if you read my blog entry or not, but here's the relevant part:
The existence and creation of Adam & Eve were miracles -- two fully-grown individuals do not daily appear ex nihilo possessing thought and speech. Only a miracle could explain such an event. It should come as no surprise that modern genetic evidence and evolutionary theory could not "account" for the existence of Adam & Eve any more than such theories could explain how Christ could have been conceived and born of a Virgin, turn well-water into wine, walk on water that was deeper than the length of his body, or be clinically dead for no less than 36 hours and return to life in a resurrected body that was able to pass through solid matter, appear and disappear, and rise to Heaven on its own volition out of the gravity well of the Earth. As with Adam & Eve, such things are scientifically and medically impossible, which is why such events are referred to as miracles
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Atheists would claim that the part in bold is a "flight of fancy," but yet, such is a dogma of the Catholic faith.
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Ok, you've not gotten the point. That's OK. I don't expect you run into many contentious atheists anyway.
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Ok, you've not gotten the point. That's OK. I don't expect you run into many contentious atheists anyway.
I am a former atheist. Nothing to brag about, of course, but I held to "negative atheism" for nearly 10 years. I have read (and re-read) all of the major atheist writers of recent times -- Dennett, hαɾɾιs, Dawkins, and the late Hitchens. I was "a regular" at The Secular Web for many years and was also a member of American Atheists for many years. (They continue to send me their news letters.) Professor Jerry A. Coyne, an atheist and prominent biologist, claims that modern scientific evidence disproves the Creation story in Genesis:
http://www.newrepublic.com/article/115759/adam-eve-theologians-try-reconcile-science-and-fail
Just curious, what is your response to Professor Coyne's article?
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It's un-respondable-to, because there is no answer for the Protestants he's addressing. A Catholic can answer that faith and reason can coexist in a finite way, but not infinitely. When faith and reason part ways, one must choose faith or reason. Pope Pius XII reminded us that, on this exact question, one must choose faith over reason.
To wit:
Science has proved quite forcefully that Adam and Eve, as described in scripture, are impossible.
God has commanded through the Church that I believe in Adam and Eve, substantially as described in scripture.
Ergo:
I believe in Adam and Eve substantially as described in scripture, without regard to reason.
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It's un-respondable-to, because there is no answer for the Protestants he's addressing. A Catholic can answer that faith and reason can coexist in a finite way, but not infinitely. When faith and reason part ways, one must choose faith or reason. Pope Pius XII reminded us that, on this exact question, one must choose faith over reason.
To wit:
Science has proved quite forcefully that Adam and Eve, as described in scripture, are impossible.
God has commanded through the Church that I believe in Adam and Eve, substantially as described in scripture.
Ergo:
I believe in Adam and Eve substantially as described in scripture, without regard to reason.
Science hasn't proven that Adam And Eve are impossible...I have studied Both Creation Science and Evolution, I have taken college classes that centered around evolution and anthropology, and I don't have one doubt that the Genesis is Literal and Adam and Eve as described in scripture are accurate.
Why are you saying it is unreasonable to believe in A&E because of science? If you study creation science and you really meditate and think about creation, you will be able to rationally and spiritually believe in A&E.
I would suggest to read many articles on creation.com (a proddy website) which is very informative.
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It's un-respondable-to, because there is no answer for the Protestants he's addressing. A Catholic can answer that faith and reason can coexist in a finite way, but not infinitely. When faith and reason part ways, one must choose faith or reason. Pope Pius XII reminded us that, on this exact question, one must choose faith over reason.
To wit:
Science has proved quite forcefully that Adam and Eve, as described in scripture, are impossible.
God has commanded through the Church that I believe in Adam and Eve, substantially as described in scripture.
Ergo:
I believe in Adam and Eve substantially as described in scripture, without regard to reason.
"Science" (by which you mean merely the Natural Sciences) has "proved" no such thing.
The "either Faith or Reason" paradigm is a Modernist false dichotomy. Our Faith is in Christ as Logos, the very reason and rationality whence comes all of cration. It is precisely the kind of scientistic materialism of Modern "thought" that is opposed to Reason because it is opposed to Faith. For a Catholic it's "both and" not "either or" with respect to Faith and Reason.
http://files.audiosancto.org/20120826-Evolution-Continues-to-Devolve.mp3
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http://www.romans10seventeen.org/audio-files/20050424-Evolution-a-False-Religious-World-View-Masqueraded-as-Science.mp3