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Author Topic: Analyze this statement please  (Read 68873 times)

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Offline SkidRowCatholic

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Analyze this statement please
« on: October 28, 2025, 10:06:39 AM »
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  • "This will enable us to live with confidence and a new spirit amid the tensions that run through the life of the Church: between unity and diversity, tradition and novelty, authority and participation. We must allow the Spirit to transform them, so that they do not become ideological contrapositions and harmful polarizations. It is not a question of resolving them by reducing one to the other, but of allowing them to be purified by the Spirit, so that they may be harmonized and oriented toward a common discernment. As synodal teams and members of participatory bodies, you know that ecclesial discernment requires “interior freedom, humility, prayer, mutual trust, an openness to the new and a surrender to the will of God. It is never just a setting out of one’s own personal or group point of view or a summing up of differing individual opinions” (Final Docuмent, 26 October 2024, 82). Being a synodal Church means recognizing that truth is not possessed, but sought together, allowing ourselves to be guided by a restless heart in love with Love."

    https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiv/en/homilies/2025/docuмents/20251026-giubileo-equipe-sinodali.html

    Is this a tacit admission that the "synodal Church" is a different church than the Catholic Church? 


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Analyze this statement please
    « Reply #1 on: October 28, 2025, 10:45:28 AM »
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  • I'd call it explicit rather than tacit but I'm sure someone might say he's suffering from 'mind rot', being too long in the Modernist jungle.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Analyze this statement please
    « Reply #2 on: October 28, 2025, 10:52:13 AM »
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  • Guy produces so much ridiculous word salad that he might have been reincarnated from a previous life in which he was a salad shooter.

    If you were to ask him to define his terms, he'd be at a total loss.

    Does sound as though he's describing a Hegelian dialectic, not unlike what Ratzinger had in mind.

    As far as the truth not being possessed, it's probably some bizarre combination of Teilhardian evolution toward the truth, which we can never possess in its totality (since God's truth is beyond us) and some posture of humility where we do not possess truth, in the same way that if we love someone we don't possess that person.

    Online Everlast22

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    Re: Analyze this statement please
    « Reply #3 on: October 28, 2025, 11:02:06 AM »
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  • Modernism in a nutshell:

    We have Dogmas, and they are x,y,z

    Modernists:

    "Let me find and exception and make it the rule"

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Analyze this statement please
    « Reply #4 on: October 28, 2025, 11:11:05 AM »
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  • This statement could apply to ANY number of religions or philosophies. There is ONE, Holy Roman, Catholic, Apostolic Church. So yes, it admits of being something other than that. Besides, as Catholics, we ALREADY HAVE TRUTH, why would we join with others in searching for that which we already possess?  
    It’s not a Catholic statement.  It is not even logical if one IS Catholic! I'm hardly a professional theologian or apologist, but I recognize nonsense and 🐮💩 when I see it. 


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Analyze this statement please
    « Reply #5 on: October 28, 2025, 12:00:34 PM »
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  • Quote
    "Being a synodal church means recognizing that truth is not possessed, but sought together, allowing ourselves to be guided by a restless heart in love with love,

    Catholic version - Being a (catholic) church means recognizing that (God) is not possessed (completely), but sought after (through the sacraments), allowing ourselves to be guided by a restless heart in love with (sincerity, prayer and humility).

    -----

    V2 version (what they really mean) - Being a (new-age, anti-christ) church means recognizing that (fraternity, equality and liberty from God) is not possessed, but sought after (through false ecuмenism), allowing ourselves to be guided by a (constant change) in love with (progress towards satan's end goal).

    -----

    Additional ABSOLUTE HERESIES uttered by Leo:  (https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/catholics-must-build-more-humble-church-seeking-truth-together-pope-says)

    --- "No one possesses the whole truth; we must all humbly seek it and seek it together,"
    --- It must be a church that does not stand "triumphant and inflated with pride, but bends down to wash the feet of humanity,"
    --- It must be a church that does not judge, he said, "but becomes a welcoming place for all; a church that does not close in on itself, but remains attentive to God so that it can similarly listen to everyone."
    --- etc, etc

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Analyze this statement please
    « Reply #6 on: October 28, 2025, 12:20:28 PM »
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  • Catholic version - Being a (catholic) church means recognizing that (God) is not possessed (completely), but sought after (through the sacraments), allowing ourselves to be guided by a restless heart in love with (sincerity, prayer and humility).

    -----

    V2 version (what they really mean) - Being a (new-age, anti-christ) church means recognizing that (fraternity, equality and liberty from God) is not possessed, but sought after (through false ecuмenism), allowing ourselves to be guided by a (constant change) in love with (progress towards satan's end goal).

    -----

    Additional ABSOLUTE HERESIES uttered by Leo:  (https://www.usccb.org/news/2025/catholics-must-build-more-humble-church-seeking-truth-together-pope-says)

    --- "No one possesses the whole truth; we must all humbly seek it and seek it together,"
    --- It must be a church that does not stand "triumphant and inflated with pride, but bends down to wash the feet of humanity,"
    --- It must be a church that does not judge, he said, "but becomes a welcoming place for all; a church that does not close in on itself, but remains attentive to God so that it can similarly listen to everyone."
    --- etc, etc
    Thanks! good translation from and into more gobbledygook modernism speak :laugh1:

    Serious question though, what kind of statement for you would qualify as an admission/action that the pope has joined a non-Catholic sect/religion?

    Offline Miseremini

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    Re: Analyze this statement please
    « Reply #7 on: October 28, 2025, 12:43:02 PM »
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  • " allowing ourselves to be guided by a restless heart in love with love."

    Sounds like it was written by an hormonal teenaged girl.
    "Let God arise, and let His enemies be scattered: and them that hate Him flee from before His Holy Face"  Psalm 67:2[/b]



    Offline Cera

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    Re: Analyze this statement please
    « Reply #8 on: October 28, 2025, 12:56:09 PM »
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  • " allowing ourselves to be guided by a restless heart in love with love."

    Sounds like it was written by an hormonal teenaged girl.
    Yes. Or anyone else looking for an easy way to sin against God without feeling guilty.
    Pray for the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Analyze this statement please
    « Reply #9 on: October 28, 2025, 01:11:23 PM »
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  • Serious question though, what kind of statement for you would qualify as an admission/action that the pope has joined a non-Catholic sect/religion?
    A heretic can be a heretic without joining another "religion".  Simply denying a dogma is a heresy.  

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Analyze this statement please
    « Reply #10 on: October 28, 2025, 01:16:18 PM »
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  • A heretic can be a heretic without joining another "religion".  Simply denying a dogma is a heresy.

    I am asking in this context:

    The Code specifies two ways of committing this delict, formal inscription as a member of the sect, or the practical' membership which consists in publicly adhering to it. The first would be a matter of record, and hence easy to prove juridically. It would obtain in those sects which provide a formal process of admission and a recording of the names of those so admitted. The second obtains in many other sects which do not practice a formal enrolling of m em bers, and in which membership consists merely in attendance and co-operation in religious practices. In the internal forum , this delict is complete, and the ipso facto penalties are incurred by the first external act of sharing in the activities of the sect, informed by the delinquent’s intention to thereby renounce his Catholic allegiance and to become one of the sectarian group. In the external forum , such a single act would scarcely be a sufficient basis for judicial determination that the penalty was incurred (unless accompanied by the delinquent’s confession of his intention), since the same act of attending sectarian worship may be performed by Catholics who attend non-Catholic weddings or funerals, and yet have no intention of renouncing their faith nor of joining the sect.’1 The joining of the non-Catholic sect may follow after the externalization of heretical error as a consequence, or may itself be the first external act which manifests the internal sin of heresy. In either case, the delinquent incurs first the basic excommunication inflicted on simple heresy.42 In addition, as a penalty for his aggravated delict, he incurs juridical infamy ipso facto, whether or no there is further official action by the Church. This is quite independent of infamy of fact, and may exist without the loss of reputation in the judgment of the general public. It is a juridical status, which consists of a series of incapacities, which may be summed up as follows :4’ 1. irregularity, (canon 984),

    which prevents promotion to Orders; disqualification for benefices, for legitimate ecclesiatical acts, and for the fulfilment of ecclesiastical offices and charges, (canon 2294, §1): 2. repulsion from any ministry in sacred functions, (canon 2294, §1) ; from acting as sponsor in Baptism , (canon 766, §2) ; and in Confirmation (canon 796, §3); from receiving Holy Eucharist, (canon 855, §1); 3. incapacity as witness (canon 1757, §2), as expert (canon 1795, §2), or as arbiter, (canon 1931). Moreover, the Code provides that this juridical infamy can be removed only by dispensation by the Holy See.44 The juridical infamy here spoken of is incurred by all baptized persons who become members of non-Catholic sects. This legislation therefore includes all lay persons and all clerics who previously were members of the Church. In addition, it applies to all those who were validly baptized but were brought up in sectarian belief. In other words, Protestants, Nestorians, etc., must be presumed responsible for their external acts in violation of the law of the Church, unless and until the contrary is proved.45 Consequently,  when they formally joined their sect, or publicly lived in accordance with its tenets and its practices, they are presumed to have incurred this juridical infamy, along with the general excommunication for heresy. As has been remarked above, this presumption will yield to facts; and if any importance attach to the matter of their status in the external forum , proof of inculpable or simply culpable ignorance of the penalty will show that the censure and the juridical infamy was not incurred.45 If a cleric is guilty of this aggravated delict, the Code makes two further provisions. The first is referred to in the text quoted above


    1.) Not withstanding tacit resignation admitted by law, any office is vacant ipso facto and without any declaration, if the cleric has publicly renounced the Catholic faith.


    2.) a cleric who joins a non-Catholic sect strips himself, by this very act, of any ecclesiastical position he may previously have held, and no longer has any rights or powers deriving from that position.


    "The Delict of Heresy" Pg. 54 - 55
    https://isidore.co/misc/Res%20pro%20Deo/TheCatholicArchive_OCRed/Image_and_OCR_layers/%E2%80%9CThe%20Delict%20of%20Heresy%20in%20its%20Commission,%20Penalization,%20Absolution%E2%80%9D%20by%20the%20Rev.%20Eric%20MacKenzie,%20S.T.L.,%20J.C.L..pdf


     



    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Analyze this statement please
    « Reply #11 on: October 28, 2025, 03:12:07 PM »
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  • I don't understand the obsession with proving, from canon law, that V2 clerics have lost their office.  Even if it was 100% certain they did lose it, then what?  Who's going to fill all those offices?  Nobody.  These heretics (legally) control the properties, titles, land, $, etc.  They aren't just going to leave because a small group of catholics show them canon law.  They have to be FORCED out by legit roman officials.  But none exist (at the moment).

    Secondly, these guys have ALREADY lost their spiritual authority.  Who cares if they still hold onto the office of "Diocese of NY Bishop"?  It's a meaningless title, from a faith standpoint.  Yes, they still control the MATERIAL possessions/churches/$, but that's beyond our control.

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Analyze this statement please
    « Reply #12 on: October 28, 2025, 03:29:27 PM »
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  • I think it matters because it informs how I think of the Church on earth and the promises of Christ and that is something that I do have some measure of control over. I should want my understanding to conform to how the Church thinks, which naturally will give rise to many important questions such as the one we are now discussing.

    Is Canon Law good for learning/teaching how the Lawgiver thinks?

    What does the law say about these things on heresy/loss of office?

    What do the commentators say on those canons?

    I guess I just figured that there must be a certain way of viewing the situation that would be - at one end, "more/most pleasing to God" and at the other end could be crass ignorance, negligence, or even implicitly heretical - and then there is everything in-between.

    You may think one way, I another, we may both be permitted to do so using Catholic sources to support our position, but that doesn't equate that both positions would be equally pleasing to God. Is religious life "better" than marriage? Are following the counsels and precepts better than just follow the precepts? Is it better to walk 1 mile along or 2?  Ya feel me?

    Do you come at your faith like this;

    1) "I can believe x because, it is no sin - I am permitted to believe it - so there."

    OR

    2) "I can believe x or y or z,  - it is no sin - which one do I think is more pleasing to God?"

    Will said choice be "more pleasing to God"? Not necessarily, but the intention and the motivation behind it are better than just a straight #1. Go for #2.

    Hopefully that helps, as I would assume you did not intend to straw man St. Bellermine et nal, with your, "obsession with proving" bit.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Analyze this statement please
    « Reply #13 on: October 28, 2025, 03:42:38 PM »
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  • Here's the logical problem.

    A.  Canon Law was created by the Church.
    B.  The authority to interpret, declare and enact canon law resides with the Church alone.
    C.  Laymen debate how to interpret and enact canon law.
    D.  Laymen's interpretations, even if correct, cannot be enacted or enforced.  No authority.
    E.  Laymen's efforts (apart from academic curiosity) are a waste of time and any enforcement is invalid.
    F.   Laymen argue over this or that, and the confusion and chaos caused is sinful (sometimes).
    G.  We have to wait for the Church to act.
    H.  God is in control and if the Church doesn't act, He will put people in place to act, eventually.

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Analyze this statement please
    « Reply #14 on: October 28, 2025, 03:48:41 PM »
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  • E.  Laymen's efforts (apart from academic curiosity) are a waste of time and any enforcement is invalid.
    I guess ^ this is where we disagree.

    I never thought of it as a waste of time to learn it - not for "curiosity" but because I consider it part of the magisterium that all Catholics can reference and learn from not, "for arguments sake" but rather to to get a better understanding of how the Church Herself "thinks" in various circuмstances and then try to form one's judgments and actions based on those teachings. I can do that right now by simply attempting to learn the code (even if done with great mental difficulty). It won't "fix" anything other than my own defective understanding, which is still something I can do, and God expects me to keep working at it my whole life. 

    If I have wasted your time, or annoyed you I do apologize.

    Thank you for the interaction