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Offline Cera

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Re: America Needs Fatima, Who?
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2018, 02:59:27 PM »
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  •  I found this commentary on the “Litany” to Plinio’s mother. . .
    The most extraordinary claim here is also the most obscure, "Mother of the Axiological Principle": this means a principle requiring no previous principle, in other words God himself.

    This hymn came into public domain when it was revealed by Prof. Orlando Fedeli, a member of TFP for over 30 years, who asked Mons. Antonio de Castro Mayer for his opinion on its orthodoxy. One can see where the roots of Introvigne's dislike for "apostates" lies. TFP did not deny the allegation; it simply shifted the blame on over-zealous young followers, and claimed the hymn to be perfectly orthodox ((Carlo Alberto Agnoli e Paolo Taufer, TFP: la maschera e il volto, Ed. Adveniat, S.Giustina di Rimini, s.d., p. 17 ss). - shifting the blame onto the boys is a time-honoured practice in certain kinds of organizations. It also claimed that use of the hymn had long been discontinued. The current official version of this issue is given by Roberto de Mattei in his hagiography of Doctor Plinio (Roberto de Mattei, Il crociato del secolo XX: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira, Piemme, Casale Monferrato, 1996, p. 249): 

    "It is true that for a certain period some co-operators of the association used a litany with invocations to Lady Lucilia, composed by two adolescents late in 1977. This litany was forbidden by Prof. Corrêa de Oliveira as soon as he got word of it"

    Oddly, this hymn by Brazilian adolescents seems to have spread across the ocean, since it was certainly used in France in the early '80s, and a former AC member recently told me that some TFP affiliates were still using it in Italy in the early '90s. When nothing else works, shocked TFP sympathizers who discover this hymn are told that "things are different in Latin America": this happened to be a favourite stratagem in my group, New Acropolis, which came from Latin America too.

    If Plinio's mother is the Virgin Lucilia, her offspring of course must be quite special. Just how special appears from an extraordinary episode, which can hardly be blamed on over-zealous adolescents, since it is based on a statement made by Plinio, repeated in many works on him, and - as usual - proudly narrated in Cristianità. ("In memoriam: Plinio Corrêa de Oliveira", November-December 1995, p. 6):

    "On February 1st, 1975, in view of the increasingly difficult situation of the Catholic Church, and hence of the Catholic world, during a meeting of the Brazilian TFP, he offered himself as an expiatory victim. Thirty-six hours later he was seriously wounded in a car accident, the consequences of which followed him until his death"

    More than its political character, it was this highly suspect theological nature of the group which led to its condemnation by the Council of Brazilian bishop

    "During its 23rd plenary assembly, the Council of Brazilian bishops approved a note concerning the 'Brazilian Society for the Defence of Tradition, Family and Property', advising Catholics not to join the above mentioned Society […]. Its esoteric character, its religious fanaticism, the personality cult of the founder and of his mother, the abuse of the name of the Virgin Mary […] can absolutely not be approved of by the Church" 
     
    (Osservatore Romano, July 7, 1985, p. 12, n. 408, weekly Spanish edition quoted in Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, frontispiece)
     
    The terms "cult" or "sect", with their double meaning of "deviant religious behaviour compared to an institutional religion" and a "closed totalist group", are certainly ambiguous. But this condemnation of TFP reveals why the organization was certainly considered by some to be a "cult" in the first sense of the word; and why therefore this organization took a special interest in the issue of "cults" in 1985, that is exactly when Introvigne too started involving himself in this matter.

    Former TFP members have written that Plinio was well aware of this association. Referring to cult accusations, he used to tell them:

    "This must not come as a surprise; since you belong to TFP, you will be treated as if you belonged to a cult, by your very parents and friends! It will be terrible, and it will be hard indeed to stay faithful."
     
    (Tradizione Famiglia Proprietà: Associazione cattolica o setta millenarista?, Rimini 1996, p. 38)

    https://mond.at/kelebek/cesnur/storia/gb14.htm
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    Online Nadir

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    Re: America Needs Fatima, Who?
    « Reply #16 on: November 03, 2018, 03:46:45 PM »
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  • No thanks on the article.  Anyone is capable of using Google.  You may have "looked these people up", but do you actually know them personally?  I do.  They're not a cult.  They're no more a cult than people might say of the SSPX, SSPV, or some other Traditonal Catholic group.  Some of their members, e.g. the Heralds, did go off the deep end, but the mainstream TFP, what little is left of it, is not a cult.  In the United States in particular, the TFP members are little more than Traditionally-minded Catholics trying to find somewhere they belong ... just like everyone else out there struggling with the crisis.
    This seems to be the method that Cera has used to research TFP. (Let it be known that I have no connection with them)  I cannot see any wisdom in quoting the likes of the Daily Beast and Miguel Martinez who writes "ideas expressed here are only mine" and claims to be have been strongly influenced by his involvement with the Blavatsky movement. The third quote is no longer available as that website is no longer exists.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: America Needs Fatima, Who?
    « Reply #17 on: November 03, 2018, 04:15:56 PM »
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  • Everyting pasted in by Cera, who obviously has a personal ax to grind, actually speaks in favor of TFP.

    Plinio condemned the "Litany".  Article just blows off the suggestion that it was composed by a couple of kids at their schools, but neglects to mention that the kids who wrote it came out later and admitted that it was a satirical parody of their school lessons.  I mean, come on, you have to be an idiot not to realize that the part of the Litany where they invoke Plinio as the "axiological principle" is a joke referring to something that was taught them in class.  It's something I might have written as a parody of crap I heard in Novus Ordo sermons.

    Biggest issue was this accusation that TFP had become anti-clerical; it was the reason Bishop Castro de Mayer distanced himself from them.  This anti-clericalism was implicit in the notion of their being a lay movement, but part of that was just a practical recognition of the fact that they did not have any direct support from any organized clerical organizations.   I know TFP members and they have a high regard for Catholic priests.  But, for a time, they had become cynical about the state of the hierarchy ... and it's hard to blame them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: America Needs Fatima, Who?
    « Reply #18 on: November 03, 2018, 04:17:23 PM »
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  • I found this commentary on the “Litany” to Plinio’s mother. . .
    The most extraordinary claim here is also the most obscure, "Mother of the Axiological Principle": this means a principle requiring no previous principle, in other words God himself.

    :laugh1:

    That was obviously a joke.  These kids were taught something about the "Axiological Principle" in class and were poking fun at the term.  That's why it's "obscure" ... because it's a straight-out joke.  Not to mention that "Axiological Principle" does not refer to a principle without previous principle, i.e. God.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: America Needs Fatima, Who?
    « Reply #19 on: November 05, 2018, 03:28:33 PM »
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  • John T. Armour
    I WAS A MEMBER of the American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property (TFP) from July 1980 until January 1981. I affiliated with the group after meeting with a TFP sympathizer in my home state of California. As a member, I lived at "the TFP seat" in Mount Kisco, New York, where I received the training and indoctrination that all members are given. I consider myself very fortunate to have been convinced by some good friends to separate from this group.
       Looking back, I can now see that the TFP is a dangerous personality cult whose purpose is the glorification of its Brazilian founder, Dr. Plinio Corea de Olivera. Many highly idealistic and religiously motivated young men have been captivated by its persuasive program. The appeals to moral, dogmatic and liturgical tradition which are so refreshing in this age of turmoil are, in my opinion, simply a means to lure individuals into the cult.

    During the period of training which I received, I was taught:

       *  Dr. Plinio will never die. When his mission on earth is fulfilled, he will walk into an earthly paradise and then ascend into heaven.

       *  Dr. Plinio's mission is to defeat "the revolution," the Communistic and/or demonic forces which are corrupting the human race. He is the "pilgrim of justice" sent by God for this purpose.

       *  Next to the Blessed Virgin Mary, Dr. Plinio is most loved by God. Hence, St. Michael the Archangel is his own personal guardian angel.

       *  Dr. Plinio has the power to read a man's soul in order to determine if he possesses "Tau," the vocation and quality to fight the revolution. He is even supposed to be able to make this determination from viewing a photograph. "Tau" can be found only in males.

       * Members of the TFP are required to pledge their allegiance to Dr. Plinio. They make a consecration of slavery to the Blessed Mother and to Dr. Plinio. So highly regarded is Dr. Plinio that we were encouraged to kiss one of his hats that had come into our possession. And we kept a special room set aside for him where we had a special bed raised on a platform above the floor.
       When I first arrived at TFP headquarters in New York, the leaders convinced me that the group was not a cult. They asked me what I had heard about the group and, after correcting minor mistaken notions I had, and after I had assured myself that I was not getting into something I would later regret being a part of, I became a member. Right away, a man was assigned to watch over me, answer my questions and keep me from knowing too much until they were sure of me. He even told me what to write in my letter to my parents. Those of us whose parents did not agree with the TFP soon found ourselves referring to our mothers and fathers as the "fountain of my revolution" (FMR). The inference was that each of us had a trace of the revolution in him, and it had been obtained as a result of the corruption and leniency of our parents. We were convinced to reject and ignore any advice from them, to see this corruption in all our family members, and to treat them accordingly. In time, I grew to despise my family. On one occasion when I was being encouraged in this attitude, I told the leaders that I had caused my mother to cry when I had talked with her by telephone. The leaders actually laughed. But, at the same time, we were urged to convince our parents that they should be proud of us because we were clean-cut gentlemen who were doing God's work.
       It may seem odd that a group such as the TFP could attract and hold anyone's confidence and loyalty. But the appeal of spirituality was very strong. We all knew that something was wrong both in the world and in the Church. Here was a dedicated group living an exemplary semi-monastic life, ostensibly formed to fight the decay we knew existed. And we were young and inexperienced. I was actually convinced that I was in the Blessed Mother's special army.
       The religious overtones were very heavy. We were encouraged to receive Holy Communion daily in the TFP Chapel. That it was distributed to us by a layman who was one of our own was done only out of supposed need. That need, of course, served to provide more evidence of the spread of the revolution. (A large number of hosts were consecrated three or four times a year by a visiting priest from Canada. He left them in our Chapel tabernacle.)
       The converted mansion where about sixty of us lived was full of holy pictures, statues and other religious articles. We were required to pray all fifteen decades of the Rosary daily, and meditation was encouraged. Each evening, after dinner, instruction from Dr. Plinio was given to all. Most often, this instruction came via recordings; sometimes it was a printed message that was read. All messages were in the Portuguese language which was translated into English by one of the leaders.
       We were led to believe that, if we left the TFP, Our Lady would chastise us because She did not want anyone to leave Her army. Many tales of terrible deaths suffered by those who left were recounted. We actually knew a Brazilian member who had been transferred to the United States, but who left the organization to get married. When he contracted a bone disease which killed him, many were pleased to learn that such justice had been delivered to a turncoat.
       The atmosphere cultivated within this group is one which holds that the entire world is corrupt and only the TFP has escaped the corruption. Even traditional Catholics, such as Archbishop Lefebvre and his followers, are scorned—though never publicly.
       Very few members ever attend Mass on Sundays, not because of any inability to locate a Tridentine Mass chapel, but because most do not want to go. A few do attend Mass at a nearby Byzantine Catholic Church. Members of the TFP derisively refer to faithful Catholics who do attend the Tridentine Mass as "trads." I was mocked one Sunday for reading the Mass to myself out of a missal. TFP leaders even joke about "trad" priests saying on one occasion that they would like to have one kept in the basement to be brought out when needed.
     
    http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=773
     
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    Offline Cera

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    Re: America Needs Fatima, Who?
    « Reply #20 on: November 05, 2018, 03:32:08 PM »
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  • This is from https://ephesians511blog.com/2013/09/28/america-needs-fatima-a-cult-using-the-fatima-name/

    “America Needs Fatima”
    A CULT USING THE FATIMA NAME

     



     
    The America Needs Fatima campaign is wholly operated by an organization called The Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property (TFP), founded in Brazil by Professor Plinio Correa De Oliveira in 1960.
    Dr. Plinio claimed to have a “private, prophetic charism” enabling him to look at a young man’s face or photo and discern that the young man had “tao” (sometimes “tau”). The “tao” is considered to be a mark on the boy’s soul put there by the Virgin Mary to select him as one of her “warrior monks” or “militants.” Boys and young men possessing “tao” are told that to refuse this “vocation” is tantamount to condemning their own soul to hell. They are required to make vows of celibacy and obedience to TFP, a “vocation” higher than the vocation to married life or to the priesthood. To make them afraid to leave the group, stories are circulated throughout TFP of the horribly-violent, sudden deaths of ex-TFPers. Those who leave are called “apostates”, even if they remain faithful Catholics. This entire recruitment procedure is in violation of Canon Law 219 prohibiting any coercion in choosing or remaining in any state of life.
    Before his death on October 3, 1995, Dr. Plinio often prophesied that he would see the battle of Armageddon within his own lifetime. His followers were kept in a constant state of agitation, expecting this cataclysmic event at any moment. The warrior monks are supposed to be key participants in Armageddon and the subsequent “Reign of Mary”. This false prophet was treated a “living saint”; his followers would bow in his presence, revere his personal belongings and compose hymns honoring him and his mother. Some militants chant a litany to Donna Lucilla, Dr. Plinio’s deceased mother, or substitute the name of Donna Lucilla for Mary and the name of Plinio for Jesus while reciting the Hail Mary
    Nevertheless, TFP seemed so dedicated to spreading the Catholic faith (in particular devotion to Our Lady of Fatima) and also to fighting communism that many of the finest and most devout Catholic families in Brazil fell for the outward appearance of orthodoxy and enrolled their sons in schools and training centers run by TFP in Brazil. The result was so disastrous that on April, 18 1985 the NCBB (National Council of Brazilian Bishops) condemned the group and ordered Catholics to have nothing to do with it. The response of the group has been to claim that its anti-Communist stance prompted the bishops’ opposition, and that the condemnation was just an “unsigned note.” On the contrary: the condemnation was written on the letterhead of the NCBB and published in several of Brazil’s largest newspapers. It is the misleading teachings of the group and the damage it has done to Catholic families that prompted the bishops’ warning, which characterized the group as a “cult of personality ” (meaning that they are giving excessive or worshipful devotion to their leader) and also accused the group of “abusing the name of Holy Mary.” The official nature of the notice was subsequently confirmed by the Under-Secretary General of the Brazilian Conference, Fr. Valentini Netto December 8, 1995.
    Meanwhile this group has spread to 25 countries and the same damage to souls and vocations is now becoming apparent in the US. Many good Catholics in this country have been misled into supporting TFP through one of its front campaigns, such as America Needs Fatima, which is currently the chief fund-raiser for the group. All moneys collected from the “free-will” offerings at the “Pilgrim Virgin” meetings go to TFP.
    TFP cleverly organizes events that draw faithful, even prominent, Catholics into innocent association with the group. Photographs or endorsement letters are then produced to persuade other Catholics to lend their support or to convince them that TFP is a faithful Catholic group. But Catholics who have merely lost time or money in unknowingly supporting this cult are the lucky ones. Some families have lost their sons. Boys and young men who are selected for membership in the group soon learn to have contempt for their parents while also plying them with requests for money to support the work of the group. By demanding celibacy of lay members, the group robs these parents of grandchildren and robs the Church of strong Catholic husbands and fathers and of the Catholic children they would have produced.
    Sometimes TFP recruits married men. They are instructed that their “tao” or “vocation” is a higher calling than their family life. The group makes heavy demands on their time. Observers and former members report that it is not unusual for a married man to spend every weekend working full-time for TFP. If his wife objects, she will be told that she “does not have the grace” to understand the TFP mission.
    The “spiritual formation” that TFP gives to children unwittingly placed in its care fosters anti-clericalism and contempt for their fellow Catholics. They are urged to receive daily communion, but have scant regard for the Mass. TFP families and militants frequently wait outside reciting their trademark, rapid-fire Rosaries and come into Mass just in time to receive communion. They call Catholics who faithfully assist at Mass “white heretics”.
    TFP exists, not to build up the body of Christ, but to perpetuate itself and further the self-aggrandizement of its leaders. Catholic youths who join TFP with the noble vision of defending of tradition, family and property end up separated from Catholic tradition, do not start families of their own and after the finest years of their young manhood are used up, find they have acquired no substantial property of their own. When they finally leave, often despairing, they are without money, education or marketable job experience. There is no doubt that this group is a destructive and insidious cult.
    Question: I met some of the young men with the America Needs Fatima campaign. They were wholesome and sincere. How can you accuse such nice Catholics of being members of a cult?
    Answer: TFPers are drawn from the “cream of the crop” of young Catholic men, well-brought-up and serious about their faith. Their own good qualities make them targets of the group’s recruitment and their own sincere desire to serve God makes them vulnerable to the lure of the group. In no way am I saying that there is anything evil or flawed about the character of the TFP rank and file. But they are trapped, believing that to leave is an act of apostasy that will endanger their souls. If the activities and mission of the group had genuine appeal to spiritually-inclined youths, it would not be necessary to manipulate them into joining or coerce them to make them stay. There are other legitimate Catholic groups that see no contradiction between promoting devotion to Mary while supporting traditional vocations to the priesthood or family life.
    Question: What could possibly be wrong with traveling with a statue of Mary and gathering people to pray the Rosary?
    Answer: Nothing. It is not the statue, the Rosary, or devotion to the Blessed Virgin that is at issue. But gathering people to pray the Rosary as a fund-raiser for a cult that is robbing the Church of vocations and secretly promoting the idolatrous admiration of a false prophet is indefensible.
    Question: If this group is bad, why do I see them at Catholic conferences and Right-to-Life marches?
    Answer: Where do you expect to find a cult group that wants to prey upon the best Catholic youths? Wouldn’t you expect to find them at places and events where they can impress Catholic parents with how good they are? They are wolves in sheep’s clothing, presenting a squeaky-clean front while hiding their real beliefs and objectives. – Matthew 7: 15.
    Question: I have given money to America Needs Fatima and I feel totally betrayed on finding out what is really behind it. What should I do about it?
    Answer: You can request that your donations be returned, though it is unlikely they will be. If the amount is substantial, you might consider suing them for false representation. They may settle with some individuals to avoid bad publicity. You might wish to channel your righteous indignation into warning other Catholics about them. Remember, this damaging group is wholly supported by faithful Catholics. Drying up their funding should severely curtail their operations.
    Question: Even if they are a cult, couldn’t Mary be using them for some good purpose?
    Answer: Mary and Jesus do not “use” people. They invite our free and willing service. They are never behind false prophecy, lies, manipulation, and coercion. (For the scriptural view of a false prophet, see Deuteronomy 18: 20-22) Rather, this cult is using the Blessed Virgin and exploiting the devotion that other Catholics have toward her for their own ends. We will exhibit true devotion to Mary by putting an end to this group’s advance in this country.
     
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: America Needs Fatima, Who?
    « Reply #21 on: November 05, 2018, 04:40:17 PM »
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  • Cera, we've had enough of your cut-and-paste-from-the-internet jobs.

    You refuse to answer what ax you're grinding against the TFP.  Why are you so obsessed with them?  Do you have any personal experience or just Google?  I know many TFP members and can assure you that this stuff is nonsense.

    Offline Alan

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    Re: America Needs Fatima, Who?
    « Reply #22 on: November 05, 2018, 06:43:17 PM »
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  • John T. Armour
    I WAS A MEMBER of the American Society for the Defense of Tradition, Family and Property (TFP) from July 1980 until January 1981. I affiliated with the group after meeting with a TFP sympathizer in my home state of California. As a member, I lived at "the TFP seat" in Mount Kisco, New York, where I received the training and indoctrination that all members are given. I consider myself very fortunate to have been convinced by some good friends to separate from this group.
       ...
      ...

    During the period of training which I received, I was taught:

       *  Dr. Plinio will never die. When his mission on earth is fulfilled, he will walk into an earthly paradise and then ascend into heaven.

       *  Dr. Plinio's mission is to defeat "the revolution," the Communistic and/or demonic forces which are corrupting the human race. He is the "pilgrim of justice" sent by God for this purpose....

    That's all rubbish.
    There are many TFP sister organisations throughout the world, they have the same goals, principles and operate the same way.
    If the TFP were that bad as your message suggested, there'd be many many more complaints against them throughout the world, why just one or two cases??

    They are not greedy for money, either. Their do not set a high price tag for their publications, they even give out some materials for free. They do not gain much profits, if any, from their publications, they mainly rely on voluntary donations.

    Cera, it's not fair just to publish one side of the story. You omitted posting the TFP's refutation of John Armour's accusations, which can be found here: http://www.tfp.org/1983-john-armour/


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: America Needs Fatima, Who?
    « Reply #23 on: November 05, 2018, 07:00:06 PM »
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  • They are not greedy for money, either. Their do not set a high price tag for their publications, they even give out some materials for free. They do not gain much profits, if any, from their publications, they mainly rely on voluntary donations.

    They operate a boarding school for boys in PA where they barely charge what the food costs.

    Offline Cera

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    Re: America Needs Fatima, Who?
    « Reply #24 on: November 06, 2018, 03:05:38 PM »
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  • No ax to grind. Facts are facts.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: America Needs Fatima, Who?
    « Reply #25 on: November 06, 2018, 04:04:50 PM »
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  • No ax to grind. Facts are facts.

    Wrong.  Facts are often subjected to distortion and spin.  And you clearly have some ax to grind against TFP.


    Online Nadir

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    Re: America Needs Fatima, Who?
    « Reply #26 on: November 06, 2018, 07:06:12 PM »
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  • No ax to grind. Facts are facts.
    Cera, did you read the document Alan presented to you. Did you note the facts therein?

    Did you notice the great charity displayed in it? Not one word against the accuser. That, in itself, speaks voumes.

    Offline Markus

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    Re: America Needs Fatima, Who?
    « Reply #27 on: November 07, 2018, 01:04:48 AM »
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  • By the way. The claim that the members of the TFP take an oath not to say the name "Atila Sinke Guimarães" is completely false. I spoke with the President of the American TFP recently and he himself used the name without me even asking him to. I mentioned the "oath" someone on here alluded to and he laughed it off as another lie about the TFP.

    While I disagree with the expulsion of Atila from the TFP, on this point, the rumours are wrong.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: America Needs Fatima, Who?
    « Reply #28 on: November 07, 2018, 07:40:33 AM »
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  • By the way. The claim that the members of the TFP take an oath not to say the name "Atila Sinke Guimarães" is completely false. I spoke with the President of the American TFP recently and he himself used the name without me even asking him to. I mentioned the "oath" someone on here alluded to and he laughed it off as another lie about the TFP.

    While I disagree with the expulsion of Atila from the TFP, on this point, the rumours are wrong.

    So, why did they expel Atila?

    Offline Cera

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    Re: America Needs Fatima, Who?
    « Reply #29 on: November 07, 2018, 04:59:29 PM »
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  • So, why did they expel Atila?
    You are making an assumption that the story Atila has told is true. (His story, of course, makes him appear to be a brave hero.) We do not know for a fact that Atila was "expelled." This is simply his claim.

    p.s. Did you read the document linked above? It is almost impossible to read on a laptop.
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