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Author Topic: Altar girls  (Read 2417 times)

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Offline icterus

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Altar girls
« on: February 09, 2014, 10:55:15 AM »
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  • I've never researched this.  Perhaps one of you knows the answer:

    In 1972, in his reform of the Minor Orders, Paul VI wrote:

    Quote
    7. In accordance with the ancient tradition of the Church, institution to the ministries of reader and acolyte is reserved to men.


    My question -

    Was this ever contradicted in a Papal docuмent?  Or was it contradicted in another non-papal docuмents?  Or was it simply ignored?


    My memory is telling me it was 'overturned' by a response to a dubium, but I may be mistaken.  Does anyone know for sure?  Thx.


    Offline crossbro

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    Altar girls
    « Reply #1 on: February 09, 2014, 03:15:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: icterus
    I've never researched this.  Perhaps one of you knows the answer:

    In 1972, in his reform of the Minor Orders, Paul VI wrote:

    Quote
    7. In accordance with the ancient tradition of the Church, institution to the ministries of reader and acolyte is reserved to men.


    My question -

    Was this ever contradicted in a Papal docuмent?  Or was it contradicted in another non-papal docuмents?  Or was it simply ignored?


    My memory is telling me it was 'overturned' by a response to a dubium, but I may be mistaken.  Does anyone know for sure?  Thx.


    The 1983 code does not specifically state girls cannot serve. Many libby tards have used this as the primary excuse to use them. However, the 1983 states that any issue not covered in the new codes resorts to the authority of the 1917 codes- the 1917 specifically bans female altar servers as well as lectors.

    What happened ? - Germany and heretic Pope JPII.

    Heretic JPII instead of standing up to German bishops gave only Germany the right to use femal altar servers, so of course the USA and Canada and the rest of the world followed suite. That is what happens when the Pope is a spineless coward,

    The current lie is this- girls can be used, a bishop can order the entire diocese not to use girls which a couple in the USA have, or a priest on his own can ban girls from serving in his parish and presumably the bishop cannot interfere. But you can bet that priest is going to get a backlash from libby nomer.

    Now the bishops in Germany want to give communion to adulterers who have remarried without annulment. Guess what is going to happen ?


    Offline songbird

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    Altar girls
    « Reply #2 on: February 10, 2014, 03:50:36 PM »
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  • the reason why girls can not be altar servers, for the same reason they can not be a priest, because they are not in the "personage" of Christ.  Having altar servers was a suggestion at vatican II and the was to say yes or no were the bishops "collegial" whatever.  It is not allowed, period.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    Altar girls
    « Reply #3 on: February 10, 2014, 05:42:38 PM »
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  • Paul VI was a double minded man.  He would say one thing and then a couple paragraphs later come to an opposite conclusion.


    Offline Sigismund

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    « Reply #4 on: February 10, 2014, 07:28:31 PM »
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  • Servers and readers in parishes, whatever their sex, are not institute lectors or acolytes.  Generally only men preparing for ordination are instituted.  I agree it is a silly practice, but it really isn't about altar girls.  
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline poche

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    Altar girls
    « Reply #5 on: February 10, 2014, 11:32:05 PM »
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  • The permission for altar girls comes from Pope John Paul II's letter,  ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS, wherein he expains that ordination to teh diaconate and the priesthood is reserved only to men, but he allowed girls to serve at the altar. It is not mandatory and there are some individual priests and dioceses which have decided that service at the altar will be restricted only to men and boys.  

    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/1994/docuмents/hf_jp-ii_apl_19940522_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

    Offline Mama ChaCha

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    Altar girls
    « Reply #6 on: February 10, 2014, 11:59:56 PM »
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  • There really shouldn't be female altar servers.
    Just from observation, girls seem to lack the focus that boys have. A boy might scratch an itch if needed, but only when needed. I've seen altar girls chewing gum, playing with their hair, looking everywhere but where they should be looking, finishing off the sacramental wine in the sacristy...the list goes on. But generally, altar boys are more focused on their duties and the sanctity of what's happening, even when they look bored to death.
    Matthew 6:34
    " Be not therefore solicitous for to morrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof."

    Offline crossbro

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    Altar girls
    « Reply #7 on: February 11, 2014, 02:03:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: Mama ChaCha
    There really shouldn't be female altar servers.
    Just from observation, girls seem to lack the focus that boys have. A boy might scratch an itch if needed, but only when needed. I've seen altar girls chewing gum, playing with their hair, looking everywhere but where they should be looking, finishing off the sacramental wine in the sacristy...the list goes on. But generally, altar boys are more focused on their duties and the sanctity of what's happening, even when they look bored to death.


    The other thing is this, once the girls show up the boys disappear.

    Then the women say they have to do it because the boys won't.



    Offline icterus

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    Altar girls
    « Reply #8 on: February 11, 2014, 12:01:21 PM »
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  • Thank you, poche, for providing the answer.  

    Offline BitDudeX

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    Altar girls
    « Reply #9 on: February 11, 2014, 12:08:14 PM »
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  • I agree. Girls should not be allowed to become altar servers.

    Offline icterus

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    Altar girls
    « Reply #10 on: February 11, 2014, 03:51:46 PM »
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  • Hey poche.....where does it talk about that?  Maybe I'm blind, but I don't see it.  Does anyone see the instruction on altar girls in here?  Thx.

    Quote
    APOSTOLIC LETTER
    ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS
    OF JOHN PAUL II
    TO THE BISHOPS
    OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
    ON RESERVING PRIESTLY ORDINATION
    TO MEN ALONE

     

    Venerable Brothers in the Episcopate,

    1. Priestly ordination, which hands on the office entrusted by Christ to his Apostles of teaching, sanctifying and governing the faithful, has in the Catholic Church from the beginning always been reserved to men alone. This tradition has also been faithfully maintained by the Oriental Churches.

    When the question of the ordination of women arose in the Anglican Communion, Pope Paul VI, out of fidelity to his office of safeguarding the Apostolic Tradition, and also with a view to removing a new obstacle placed in the way of Christian unity, reminded Anglicans of the position of the Catholic Church: "She holds that it is not admissible to ordain women to the priesthood, for very fundamental reasons. These reasons include: the example recorded in the Sacred Scriptures of Christ choosing his Apostles only from among men; the constant practice of the Church, which has imitated Christ in choosing only men; and her living teaching authority which has consistently held that the exclusion of women from the priesthood is in accordance with God's plan for his Church."(1)

    But since the question had also become the subject of debate among theologians and in certain Catholic circles, Paul VI directed the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to set forth and expound the teaching of the Church on this matter. This was done through the Declaration Inter Insigniores, which the Supreme Pontiff approved and ordered to be published.(2)

    2. The Declaration recalls and explains the fundamental reasons for this teaching, reasons expounded by Paul VI, and concludes that the Church "does not consider herself authorized to admit women to priestly ordination."(3) To these fundamental reasons the docuмent adds other theological reasons which illustrate the appropriateness of the divine provision, and it also shows clearly that Christ's way of acting did not proceed from sociological or cultural motives peculiar to his time. As Paul VI later explained: "The real reason is that, in giving the Church her fundamental constitution, her theological anthropology-thereafter always followed by the Church's Tradition- Christ established things in this way."(4)

    In the Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignitatem, I myself wrote in this regard: "In calling only men as his Apostles, Christ acted in a completely free and sovereign manner. In doing so, he exercised the same freedom with which, in all his behavior, he emphasized the dignity and the vocation of women, without conforming to the prevailing customs and to the traditions sanctioned by the legislation of the time."(5)

    In fact the Gospels and the Acts of the Apostles attest that this call was made in accordance with God's eternal plan; Christ chose those whom he willed (cf. Mk 3:13-14; Jn 6:70), and he did so in union with the Father, "through the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:2), after having spent the night in prayer (cf. Lk 6:12). Therefore, in granting admission to the ministerial priesthood,(6) the Church has always acknowledged as a perennial norm her Lord's way of acting in choosing the twelve men whom he made the foundation of his Church (cf. Rv 21:14). These men did not in fact receive only a function which could thereafter be exercised by any member of the Church; rather they were specifically and intimately associated in the mission of the Incarnate Word himself (cf. Mt 10:1, 7-8; 28:16-20; Mk 3:13-16; 16:14-15). The Apostles did the same when they chose fellow workers(7) who would succeed them in their ministry.(8) Also included in this choice were those who, throughout the time of the Church, would carry on the Apostles' mission of representing Christ the Lord and Redeemer.(9)

    3. Furthermore, the fact that the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God and Mother of the Church, received neither the mission proper to the Apostles nor the ministerial priesthood clearly shows that the non-admission of women to priestly ordination cannot mean that women are of lesser dignity, nor can it be construed as discrimination against them. Rather, it is to be seen as the faithful observance of a plan to be ascribed to the wisdom of the Lord of the universe.

    The presence and the role of women in the life and mission of the Church, although not linked to the ministerial priesthood, remain absolutely necessary and irreplaceable. As the Declaration Inter Insigniores points out, "the Church desires that Christian women should become fully aware of the greatness of their mission: today their role is of capital importance both for the renewal and humanization of society and for the rediscovery by believers of the true face of the Church."(10)

    The New Testament and the whole history of the Church give ample evidence of the presence in the Church of women, true disciples, witnesses to Christ in the family and in society, as well as in total consecration to the service of God and of the Gospel. "By defending the dignity of women and their vocation, the Church has shown honor and gratitude for those women who-faithful to the Gospel-have shared in every age in the apostolic mission of the whole People of God. They are the holy martyrs, virgins and mothers of families, who bravely bore witness to their faith and passed on the Church's faith and tradition by bringing up their children in the spirit of the Gospel."(11)

    Moreover, it is to the holiness of the faithful that the hierarchical structure of the Church is totally ordered. For this reason, the Declaration Inter Insigniores recalls: "the only better gift, which can and must be desired, is love (cf. 1 Cor 12 and 13). The greatest in the Kingdom of Heaven are not the ministers but the saints."(12)

    4. Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal Tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the Magisterium in its more recent docuмents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Church's judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force.

    Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Church's divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church's faithful.

    Invoking an abundance of divine assistance upon you, venerable brothers, and upon all the faithful, I impart my apostolic blessing.

    From the Vatican, on May 22, the Solemnity of Pentecost, in the year 1994, the sixteenth of my Pontificate.

    NOTES

    1. Paul VI, Response to the Letter of His Grace the Most Reverend Dr. F.D. Coggan, Archbishop of Canterbury, concerning the Ordination of Women to the Priesthood (November 30, 1975); AAS 68 (1976), 599.

    2. Cf. Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration Inter Insigniores on the question of the Admission of Women to the Ministerial Priesthood (October 15, 1976): AAS 69 (1977), 98-116.

    3. Ibid., 100.

    4. Paul VI, Address on the Role of Women in the Plan of Salvation (January 30, 1977): Insegnamenti, XV (1977), 111. Cf. Also John Paul II Apostolic Exhortation Christifideles laici (December 30, 1988), n. 51: AAS 81 (1989), 393-521; Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1577.

    5. Apsotolic Letter Mulieris Dignnitatem (August 15, 1988), n. 26: AAS 80 (1988), 1715.

    6. Cf. Dogmatic Constitution Lumen Gentium, n. 28 Decree Presbyterorum Ordinis, n. 2b.

    7. Cf. 1 Tm 3:1-13; 2 Tm 1:6; Ti 1:5-9.

    8. Cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 1577.

    9. Cf. Dogmatic Constitution on the Church Lumen Gentium, nn. 20,21.

    10. Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration Inter Insigniores, n. 6: AAS 69 (1977), 115-116.

    11. Apostolic Letter Mulieris Dignitatem, n. 27: AAS 80 (1988), 1719.

    12. Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration Inter Insigniores n. 6: AAS 69 (1977), 115.



    Offline Petertherock

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    « Reply #11 on: February 11, 2014, 06:27:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Mama ChaCha
    There really shouldn't be female altar servers.
    Just from observation, girls seem to lack the focus that boys have. A boy might scratch an itch if needed, but only when needed. I've seen altar girls chewing gum, playing with their hair, looking everywhere but where they should be looking, finishing off the sacramental wine in the sacristy...the list goes on. But generally, altar boys are more focused on their duties and the sanctity of what's happening, even when they look bored to death.


    Don't get me wrong...I am completely against altar boy girls but I have seen and heard of plenty of boys drinking the Altar wine. I also know plenty of boys that don't pay attention and are hyper on the Altar...of course this was in the NO so I can't blame them for being bored and distracted.


    Offline crossbro

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    Altar girls
    « Reply #12 on: February 12, 2014, 01:21:34 AM »
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  • Quote from: Petertherock
    Quote from: Mama ChaCha
    There really shouldn't be female altar servers.
    Just from observation, girls seem to lack the focus that boys have. A boy might scratch an itch if needed, but only when needed. I've seen altar girls chewing gum, playing with their hair, looking everywhere but where they should be looking, finishing off the sacramental wine in the sacristy...the list goes on. But generally, altar boys are more focused on their duties and the sanctity of what's happening, even when they look bored to death.


    Don't get me wrong...I am completely against altar boy girls but I have seen and heard of plenty of boys drinking the Altar wine. I also know plenty of boys that don't pay attention and are hyper on the Altar...of course this was in the NO so I can't blame them for being bored and distracted.



    As simple and dumbed down as it is to serve the NO mass I have yet to see a single altar server at a NO mass not make a fool of themselves on the first try. It is like it is done intentionally, to make sure everyone understands not to take things too seriously.

    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #13 on: February 12, 2014, 09:15:17 AM »
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  • Quit messing up my thread.  Of course everyone who posts here disapproves of altar girls.  Duh.  I asked a specific question, I'm trying to get an answer.  Poche offered one, but it looks like he's wrong.  Does anyone have any more information, or at very least, can you rad the docuмent and see where the instruction is that I missed?  I read through twice, but still didn't see it.  

    Offline icterus

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    « Reply #14 on: February 12, 2014, 09:58:41 AM »
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  • Wikipedia to the rescue...and Poche was wrong.

    Quote
    Formerly, it was strictly forbidden to have women serving near the altar within the sacred chancel (infra cancellos), that is, they were prohibited from entering the altar area behind the altar rails during the liturgy, except to clean or in convents of nuns.[1] In his encyclical Allatae Sunt of 26 July 1755, Pope Benedict XIV explicitly condemned females serving the priest at the altar with the following words:

    "Pope Gelasius in his ninth letter (chap. 26) to the bishops of Lucania condemned the evil practice which had been introduced of women serving the priest at the celebration of Mass. Since this abuse had spread to the Greeks, Innocent IV strictly forbade it in his letter to the bishop of Tusculum: "Women should not dare to serve at the altar; they should be altogether refused this ministry." We too have forbidden this practice in the same words in Our oft-repeated constitution Etsi Pastoralis, sect. 6, no. 21."[2]

    The references to "the Greeks" pertains to the Orthodox practice of ordaining women as deacons. With the practice of private Masses (Mass by a priest and one other person, often offered for a deceased person), scandal was an additional reason not to have a woman or girl alone with a priest.

    Around the time of the Second Vatican Council, some dioceses disobeyed and allowed girls in the lay ministry of altar servers. For example, this practice started as early as 1965 in Germany. The Vatican sought to put an end to such experimentation with the 1970 instruction Liturgicae instaurationes,[3] and affirmed that only males could serve the priest at the altar.[4] However, the practice nonetheless continued in some places, and the Vatican reaffirmed the prohibition against female altar servers in the 1980 instruction Inaestimabile donum.[5]

    With the promulgation of the 1983 Code of Canon Law, some argued that this reservation to males no longer held,[6] based on the inclusion of both males and females in canon 230 §2: "Lay persons can fulfil the function of lector in liturgical actions by temporary designation. All lay persons can also perform the functions of commentator or cantor, or other functions, according to the norm of law." In some dioceses, females were allowed to act as altar servers under the "new canon law", without any explicit clarification on the matter from the Holy See.

    The clarification came in the form of a circular letter[7][8] from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments to presidents of episcopal conferences on 15 March 1994, which announced a 30 June 1992 authentic interpretation (confirmed on 11 July 1992 by Pope John Paul II) from the Pontifical Council for the Interpretation of Legislative Texts. This authentic interpretation said that canon 230 §2 states that service at the altar is one of the liturgical functions that can be performed by both lay men and women. The circular letter, written by the cardinal-prefect of the Congregation, also clarified that canon 230 §2 has a permissive and not a perceptive character, that is, it allows, but does not require, the use of female altar servers. Thus it was for each diocesan bishop to decide whether to allow them in his diocese.

    A later docuмent [9] made clear that, even if a bishop decided to permit female altar servers, the priest in charge of a church in that diocese was not obliged to accept them, since there was no question of anyone, male or female, having a right to become an altar server. Furthermore, the docuмent states that: it will always be very appropriate to follow the noble tradition of having boys serve at the altar.[10] This tradition has been maintained by most dioceses in the non-Western world, traditionalist Catholics, in some clerical societies, especially with regards to the motu proprio Summorum Pontificuм.

    Pope Benedict XVI has had female altar servers in Papal masses in London (2010), Berlin, and Freiburg (2011).