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Author Topic: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven  (Read 2633 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2019, 12:41:46 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on February 02, 2019, 12:19:01 PM
    To assert that all aborted babies must go to limbo seems to deny God's omnipotence.

    Ah, so here we go ... with people claiming that the denial of BoD/BoB denies God's omnipotence and also His mercy.  And so they sit in judgment of God.  One could take your pseudo-logic to the next step ... to assert that ANY aborted babies MUST go to limbo seems to deny God's omnipotence.  You speak nonsense.

    So does the fact that people in mortal sin go to Hell deny God's omnipotence also?
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    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #31 on: February 02, 2019, 01:43:26 PM »
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    • We have all been judaized... just some more than others :facepalm:
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    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #32 on: February 02, 2019, 02:17:39 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 02, 2019, 12:41:46 PM
    denial of BoD/BoB denies God's omnipotence and also His mercy.
    I don't understand your point. It's not Catholic to deny BoD & BoB anyways.
    Also, I'm still waiting for you to explain how someone today can be baptized by blood or by desire.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #33 on: February 02, 2019, 04:44:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on February 02, 2019, 12:19:01 PM
    None of these quotes prove babies cannot be baptized by desire or by blood.
    That is likely because you do not want to see anything that proves that babies must be baptized to be saved. You do not have eyes to see, because you choose to be blind. The quotes are very clear, BOD and BOB are not sacraments, the quotes are speaking of the sacrament of baptism and two of them very precisely even say the sacrament of baptism.

    Dogma - “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, since no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the devil and adopted among the sons of God, [the sacrosanct Roman Church] advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, ... but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently…” -Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, February 4, 1442

    "Likewise, whoever says that those children who depart out of this life without partaking of that Sacrament (Baptism) are alive in Christ, certainly contradicts the apostolic declaration and condemns the universal Church, in which it is the practice to lose no time and run in haste to administer Baptism to infant children, because it is believed as an indubitable truth, that otherwise they cannot be made alive in Christ." -Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church, Epistle 167, AD 415
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    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #34 on: February 02, 2019, 09:48:23 PM »
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    • Not only Bergolio here publicly utters an obviously Pelagian heresy; but the statement can actually have a counterproductive effect even on a natural level, by actually encouraging abortion; instead of preventing it. If a woman is deciding whether to have an abortion, and someone (in this case, the "Pope",  "Vicar of Christ" himself!) tells her the pretty lie that her aborted baby would go straight to Heaven and be in the happy company of the angels, this could push her over the brink.

    When was the last time that you heard a Pope, or anyone of public importance really, telling women that if they don't want to deal with an unwanted pregnancy, what they need to do in the first place is to close their legs and preserve their chastity?
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #35 on: February 02, 2019, 10:07:39 PM »
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    • St. Thomas taught that unbaptized children (whether aborted or not) go to Limbo of Children, in Hell in Summa Theologica. III, Q. 52, a. 7


    Quote
    7. Whether the children who died in original sin were delivered by Christ?

    I answer that, As stated above (Article 6), Christ's descent into hell had its effect of deliverance on them only who through faith and charity were united to Christ's Passion, in virtue whereof Christ's descent into hell was one of deliverance. But the children who had died in original sin were in no way united to Christ's Passion by faith and love: for, not having the use of free will, they could have no faith of their own; nor were they cleansed from original sin either by their parents' faith or by any sacrament of faith. Consequently, Christ's descent into hell did not deliver the children from thence. And furthermore, the holy Fathers were delivered from hell by being admitted to the glory of the vision of God, to which no one can come except through grace; according to Romans 6:23: "The grace of God is life everlasting." Therefore, since children dying in original sin had no grace, they were not delivered from hell.

    Reply to Objection 1. The holy Fathers, although still held bound by the debt of original sin, in so far as it touches human nature, were nevertheless delivered from all stain of sin by faith in Christ: consequently, they were capable of that deliverance which Christ brought by descending into hell. But the same cannot be said of the children, as is evident from what was said above.

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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #36 on: February 02, 2019, 10:21:55 PM »
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    • <<<< By the way, that is the reason why aborted (either voluntary or involuntary) infants cannot be saved through any hypothetical "Baptism of Desire". They have not the use of free will, therefore, they cannot have Faith of their own, nor they are cleansed from original sin either by their parents' Faith or by any sacrament of Faith.
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #37 on: February 02, 2019, 10:46:58 PM »
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    • Quote
    Consequently, Christ's descent into hell did not deliver the children from thence. And furthermore, the holy Fathers were delivered from hell by being admitted to the glory of the vision of God, to which no one can come except through grace; according to Romans 6:23: "The grace of God is life everlasting." Therefore, since children dying in original sin had no grace, they were not delivered from hell.
    St Thomas’ logic also applies to the “invincibly” ignorant, aren’t delivered from Hell because they have not grace.  (though I highly doubt that these individuals even exist because once a child reaches the age of reason, they are enlightened as to the realities of the natural law (at least), so no one can be said to be “invincibly” ignorant of the 10 commandments.)
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #38 on: February 05, 2019, 05:38:20 PM »
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    • Fr. Francis O’Connell, C.Ss.R., Outlines of Moral Theology (1953), as quoted on the last page of Conlon's Sources of Baptism of Blood & Baptism of Desire:
    Baptism of Desire ... is an act of divine charity or perfect contrition... These means (i.e. Baptism of Blood & Desire) presuppose in the recipient at least the implicit will to receive the sacrament... Even an infant can gain the benefit of the Baptism of Blood if he is put to death by a person actuated by hatred for the Christian faith...
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #39 on: February 05, 2019, 05:56:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on February 02, 2019, 10:46:58 PM
    St Thomas’ logic also applies to the “invincibly” ignorant, aren’t delivered from Hell because they have not grace.  (though I highly doubt that these individuals even exist because once a child reaches the age of reason, they are enlightened as to the realities of the natural law (at least), so no one can be said to be “invincibly” ignorant of the 10 commandments.)

    This is very important ... so as not to become a Pelagian heretic.  Invincible ignorance by itself does nothing except excuse from actual sin.  It is exculpatory but not salvific.  There must be some other factor which actually supplies the grace.  Ignorance cannot do that.  To say that lack of sin = grace is Pelagianism and a denial of Original Sin.

    That's why Pope Pius IX in the famous passage that's always distorted by the anti-EENS crowd says that the invincibly ignorant can be saved (not period, not in that state) ... but by the operation of light and grace.  Because they place no obstacle in the way of this operation, they can be said to be "on the way" of salvation.  But they are not saved in their state of ignorance.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #40 on: February 05, 2019, 05:57:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on February 05, 2019, 05:38:20 PM
    Fr. Francis O’Connell, C.Ss.R., Outlines of Moral Theology (1953), as quoted on the last page of Conlon's Sources of Baptism of Blood & Baptism of Desire:
    Baptism of Desire ... is an act of divine charity or perfect contrition... These means (i.e. Baptism of Blood & Desire) presuppose in the recipient at least the implicit will to receive the sacrament... Even an infant can gain the benefit of the Baptism of Blood if he is put to death by a person actuated by hatred for the Christian faith...


    Nothing but gratuitous modernist/heretical trash.  There's no theological proof for this assertion whatsoever.
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #41 on: February 05, 2019, 06:33:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on February 05, 2019, 05:57:54 PM
    Nothing but gratuitous modernist/heretical trash.  There's no theological proof for this assertion whatsoever.
    Where is your "theological proof for" seeming to think that the use of reason is necessary for baptism by blood?
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #42 on: February 05, 2019, 06:49:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Geremia on February 05, 2019, 06:33:09 PM
    Where is your "theological proof for" seeming to think that the use of reason is necessary for baptism by blood?
    LOL, what proof has Geremia  supplied for anything he's speculated on here? He might as well quote the CCC, if he's going to use a quote from a nobody from 1953. He can't quote dogma, Church Fathers, Saints and he asks for theological proof? 
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    Offline Geremia

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    Re: Francis on Aborted Babies in Heaven
    « Reply #43 on: February 07, 2019, 02:25:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on February 05, 2019, 06:49:33 PM
    what proof has Geremia  supplied for anything he's speculated on here?
    Quote from: Ladislaus on February 05, 2019, 05:57:54 PM
    There's no theological proof for this assertion whatsoever.
    See what I posted here.
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