Author Topic: AGAIN Defending the False Assertion That SV Leads to the Disappearance of  (Read 2355 times)

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Offline Exilenomore

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AGAIN Defending the False Assertion That SV Leads to the Disappearance of
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2016, 12:45:04 PM »
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    Offline Exilenomore

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    AGAIN Defending the False Assertion That SV Leads to the Disappearance of
    « Reply #16 on: July 06, 2016, 12:49:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Did you miss my point that they did not have to be SV bishops in order to be valid and have ordinary jurisdiction?


    Stop deflecting, and admit that Sedevacantism is false. You have been spamming this forum for years. The time has come to be a man and admit defeat.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    AGAIN Defending the False Assertion That SV Leads to the Disappearance of
    « Reply #17 on: July 06, 2016, 12:50:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Exilenomore
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    Theologians generally agree that the cessation of all ordinary jurisdiction would compromise the indefectibility of the Church.


    Ladislaus,

    This is simply not true. You are unable support this assertion with any evidence from trustworthy sources.

    The Canon which I have cited in this thread proves that ordinary episcopal jurisdiction exists iure divino within the Church, and can thus never wane. Episcopi vagi are no teachers, doctors nor pastors of the Church; they are canonical lay men with valid sacramental orders, like the Eastern-Orthodox.


    Here, believe it or not, I agree with Ladislaus.  There is plenty of evidence that would support his assertion but I will let him fend for himself.

    Tell me there is not a single bishop with ordinary jurisdiction and I'll tell you the Church has defected.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Exilenomore

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    AGAIN Defending the False Assertion That SV Leads to the Disappearance of
    « Reply #18 on: July 06, 2016, 12:54:12 PM »
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  • I had misread Ladislaus' post, and thought that he was saying that a cessation of ordinary jurisdiction would not compromise ecclesial indefectibility. I have edited my post and I apologise to him for the mistake.

    It is one of my capital points that ordinary jurisdiction must always perdure within the Church, and that this proves the falsity of Sedevacantism.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    AGAIN Defending the False Assertion That SV Leads to the Disappearance of
    « Reply #19 on: July 06, 2016, 01:03:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Exilenomore
    It is one of my capital points that ordinary jurisdiction must always perdure within the Church, and that this proves the falsity of Sedevacantism.


    Your ipse dixit proves your ignorance.  What bishop do you submit to?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Exilenomore

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    AGAIN Defending the False Assertion That SV Leads to the Disappearance of
    « Reply #20 on: July 06, 2016, 01:52:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    What bishop do you submit to?


    Monseigneur Johan Bonny, per gratiam Apostolicae Sedis Antverpiae Episcopus.

    You are completely unable to locate a sedevacantist hierarchy claiming to be in possession of episcopal sees, while the true Church must always be easily located.

    Do you truly not see the contradictions of your teachings with those of the Church, or do you consciously refuse to submit to the truth?

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    AGAIN Defending the False Assertion That SV Leads to the Disappearance of
    « Reply #21 on: July 06, 2016, 02:10:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: Exilenomore
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    What bishop do you submit to?


    Monseigneur Johan Bonny, per gratiam Apostolicae Sedis Antverpiae Episcopus.

    You are completely unable to locate a sedevacantist hierarchy claiming to be in possession of episcopal sees, while the true Church must always be easily located.

    Do you truly not see the contradictions of your teachings with those of the Church, or do you consciously refuse to submit to the truth?


    Is he a valid Bishop with ordinary jurisdiction?

    Again, the valid hierarchy with ordinary jurisdiction do not have to be SV.  If you are going to accuse me of things make the accusation accurate.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Exilenomore

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    AGAIN Defending the False Assertion That SV Leads to the Disappearance of
    « Reply #23 on: July 06, 2016, 02:44:19 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Is he a valid Bishop with ordinary jurisdiction?


    Yes. I obey his legitimate commands, and oppose his heresies, as it is required.

    Your bishops have valid episcopal orders, but no ordinary jurisdiction. They are episcopi vagi. I refer to you once again the Canon which I have cited in this very thread, and which you unfortunately ignore.

    Offline qeddeq

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    AGAIN Defending the False Assertion That SV Leads to the Disappearance of
    « Reply #24 on: July 06, 2016, 08:17:44 PM »
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  • thanks for that link LoT. It ceases to surprise me that a sodomite apologist would hold the office of Bishop in newchurch. He's probably gay himself and is a practicing sodomite. When Jesus defined marriage as between a man and a woman, and condemned sex outside of matrimony, he obviously meant to completely proscribe homosexuality. If sex outside of marriage is impermissible, and marriage is only between a man and woman, then it follows as the night follows the day that homosexuality is never permissible. The words of christ won't stop newchurch though. Soon you'll see gay lovers receiving communion, then you'll see them at the altar.
    Exilenomore will be there, hard pressed, but ever loyal to the stench-church.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    AGAIN Defending the False Assertion That SV Leads to the Disappearance of
    « Reply #25 on: July 07, 2016, 07:13:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: qeddeq
    thanks for that link LoT. It ceases to surprise me that a sodomite apologist would hold the office of Bishop in newchurch. He's probably gay himself and is a practicing sodomite. When Jesus defined marriage as between a man and a woman, and condemned sex outside of matrimony, he obviously meant to completely proscribe homosexuality. If sex outside of marriage is impermissible, and marriage is only between a man and woman, then it follows as the night follows the day that homosexuality is never permissible. The words of christ won't stop newchurch though. Soon you'll see gay lovers receiving communion, then you'll see them at the altar.
    Exilenomore will be there, hard pressed, but ever loyal to the stench-church.


    Right.  He has ecclesiastical law for normal times law trump the divine law that would allow the Church to continue through the only known legitimately Catholic Bishops and would have a heretical sodomistic hierarchy over a traditional Catholic one.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Exilenomore

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    AGAIN Defending the False Assertion That SV Leads to the Disappearance of
    « Reply #26 on: July 07, 2016, 08:37:26 AM »
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  • There is no evidence that His Excellency is a sodomite himself. He defends that vile sin, and he must be opposed in that. But you cannot accuse a Bishop of personally having perpetrated the sin against nature, which cries to Heaven for vengeance, without presenting evidence.

    qeddeq, you once again betray the arbitrary nature of your sectarian doctrine. You simply make things up as you go, without letting even a basic sense of justice get in your way. That said, you are straying the disputation away from the subject of locating the ecclesiastical hierarchy.

    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Right.  He has ecclesiastical law for normal times law trump the divine law that would allow the Church to continue through the only known legitimately Catholic Bishops and would have a heretical sodomistic hierarchy over a traditional Catholic one.


    Have you read the Canon? It clearly states that Bishops in possession of episcopal seats exist within the Church by divine institution. It is not a lex humana, but a lex divina. Your bishops do not even claim to possess dioceses; ergo, your hierarchy is not the Catholic Episcopate.

    The right of electing a Bishop for the See of Antwerp does not belong to me, but to the Roman Pontiff. That the choice of Monseigneur Bonny is a disastrous one does not alter that fact. The Pope is the principle of episcopal authority, not the people. I am not a revolutionary; I recognise legitimate authority instead of overthrowing it. We, Europeans who have the faith, are sick of revolutions, and we want order restored. I want to combat the nefarious agenda of my Bishop, but I refuse to usurp authority which I do not have as a lay man.

    And what I have said to qeddeq, I repeat to you: You have no right to accuse my Bishop of having committed sodomy when you are unable to provide evidence of that.

    The Archbishop of Valencia has recently been threatened with imprisonment for having condemned sodomism. Where are the sedevacantist bishops who are being persecuted in this way? Would you call this Archbishop a "sodomite hierarch" as well? If you are calling the whole ecclesiastical hierarchy a "heretical sodomistic hierarchy", then you simply have no love for the truth.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    AGAIN Defending the False Assertion That SV Leads to the Disappearance of
    « Reply #27 on: July 07, 2016, 08:53:00 AM »
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  • Quote from: Exilenomore
    There is no evidence that His Excellency is a sodomite himself. He defends that vile sin, and he must be opposed in that. But you cannot accuse a Bishop of personally having perpetrated the sin against nature, which cries to Heaven for vengeance, without presenting evidence.

    qeddeq, you once again betray the arbitrary nature of your sectarian doctrine. You simply make things up as you go, without letting even a basic sense of justice get in your way. That said, you are straying the disputation away from the subject of locating the ecclesiastical hierarchy.

    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Right.  He has ecclesiastical law for normal times law trump the divine law that would allow the Church to continue through the only known legitimately Catholic Bishops and would have a heretical sodomistic hierarchy over a traditional Catholic one.


    Have you read the Canon? It clearly states that Bishops in possession of episcopal seats exist within the Church by divine institution. It is not a lex humana, but a lex divina. Your bishops do not even claim to possess dioceses; ergo, your hierarchy is not the Catholic Episcopate.

    The right of electing a Bishop for the See of Antwerp does not belong to me, but to the Roman Pontiff. That the choice of Monseigneur Bonny is a disastrous one does not alter that fact. The Pope is the principle of episcopal authority, not the people. I am not a revolutionary; I recognise legitimate authority instead of overthrowing it. We, Europeans who have the faith, are sick of revolutions, and we want order restored. I want to combat the nefarious agenda of my Bishop, but I refuse to usurp authority which I do not have as a lay man.

    And what I have said to qeddeq, I repeat to you: You have no right to accuse my Bishop of having committed sodomy when you are unable to provide evidence of that.

    The Archbishop of Valencia has recently been threatened with imprisonment for having condemned sodomism. Where are the sedevacantist bishops who are being persecuted in this way? Would you call this Archbishop a "sodomite hierarch" as well? If you are calling the whole ecclesiastical hierarchy a "heretical sodomistic hierarchy", then you simply have no love for the truth.


    You either refuse to acknowledge or do not understand what I have presented or you would have tried to directly refute it.  

    Have bishops been consecrated and granted ordinary jurisdiction in the past during an interregnum?  Yes or no?  There is one correct answer to that question.  Answer it if you are an intellectually honest person after truth rather than your preference.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Exilenomore

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    AGAIN Defending the False Assertion That SV Leads to the Disappearance of
    « Reply #28 on: July 07, 2016, 09:31:41 AM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Have bishops been consecrated and granted ordinary jurisdiction in the past during an interregnum?  Yes or no?  There is one correct answer to that question.


    I am not aware of such occasions in history, but it would be possible if Pontifical law during those hypothetical times explicitly permitted the election of bishops to dioceses during interregna. I have already addressed this objection of yours, but it is completely beside the subject matter at hand. Your bishops do not possess episcopal seats, and they do not even claim to do so. Also, there is no interregnum at present, as there is a Pope of Rome reigning in the seven-hilled city, recognised by the whole Apostolic Episcopate. Your bishops do not have potestas ordinaria.

    A diocese is the ordinary episcopal jurisdiction of a bishop. The Canon which I cited states that this jurisdiction exists within the Church by divine law. Your bishops have no dioceses. How many times do I have to repeat this? It is not very difficult to understand.

    Your whole pretended hierarchy hinges on an imagined invisible transmission of authority, while the visible transmission of ecclesiastical authority is one of the defining elements of the true Church which make her recognisable as such. Your sedevacantist 'church' is a phantom.

    Offline Exilenomore

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    AGAIN Defending the False Assertion That SV Leads to the Disappearance of
    « Reply #29 on: July 07, 2016, 10:05:07 AM »
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  • Quote from: Exilenomore
    The right of electing a Bishop for the See of Antwerp does not belong to me, but to the Roman Pontiff.


    I have to make a correction here. The Roman Pontiff does not elect bishops, but he appoints them.


     

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