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Poll

Affirm or deny: Pope Honorius remained the Roman Pontiff until his death, even though the Sixth Ecumenical Council formally condemned and anathematized him as a heretic and Pope Leo II ratified that condemnation.

Affirm
6 (60%)
Deny
4 (40%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case  (Read 48871 times)

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Offline SkidRowCatholic

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Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
« Reply #150 on: December 18, 2025, 12:19:16 PM »
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  • Have a little Understanding man and don't be so fired up to immediately condemn to hell everyone except yourself.
    When did I condemn anyone to hell? I condemn the MONSTROUS heresy you blow off as nothing.

    They are already going to hell
    It is rather YOU that condemns them - you slimy hypocrite.

    you should be surprised and even glad that they got as much correct as they did.
    I should be happy like you that he spewed HERESY? You make me physically ill...

    Maybe you should work on getting rid of some or all of your bitterness.
    I must admit - you have tempted me towards bitterness with your pertinacious, intransigence and lack of all concern for upholding the honor due to Christ and His Mother.

    But, by the grace of God, I will instead go now and plead for mercy upon your soul.

    As for the heretic pope Honorius, the rest of us Catholics have no choice in the matter, we all must go with the encyclical from the Council.
    As for this, you have no argument, the poll is defunct, stupid, and pointless. 

    All Catholics accept the council - you have made no point whatsoever. 

    Stop acting like a Protestant and using their devilish devices to smear the Church because you need to, "destroy the wrong-headed sedes."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #151 on: December 18, 2025, 02:26:10 PM »
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  • All Catholics accept the council - you have made no point whatsoever.

    Stop acting like a Protestant and using their devilish devices to smear the Church because you need to, "destroy the wrong-headed sedes."
    Yes, all Catholics accept the Council, but you don't accept the Council posthumously condemning Pope Honorius as having been both a pope and a heretic at the same time. I mean what's your major malfunction junior? It says it right there in the Council's encyclical.  But I'm the one like a Protestant. :facepalm: 

    Just because all of a sudden all Councils infallible to you anymore doesn't mean they aren't infallible to all sedes.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #152 on: December 20, 2025, 11:16:30 AM »
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  • 7. Not alone the heretical, but even some Catholic writers, have judged, from these expressions of Pope Honorius, that he fell into the Monothelite heresy but they are certainly deceived because when he says that there is only one will in Christ, he intends to speak of Christ as man alone, and in that sense, as Catholic, he properly denies that there are two wills in Christ opposed to each other, as in us the flesh is opposed to the spirit and if we consider the very words of his letter, we will see that such is his meaning. We confess one will alone in Jesus Christ, for the Divinity did not assume our sin, but our nature, as it was created before it was cor rupted by sin." This is what Pope John IV. writes to the Emperor Constantine II., in his apology for Honorius: "Some," said he, admitted two contrary wills in Jesus Christ, and Honorius answers that by saying that Christ perfect God and perfect man having come to heal human nature, was conceived and born without sin, and therefore, never had two opposite wills, nor in him the will of the flesh ever combated the will of the spirit, as it does in us, on account of the sin contracted from Adam." He therefore concludes that those who imagine that Honorius taught that there was in Christ but one will alone of the Divinity and ofthe humanity, are at fault (8). St. Maximus, in his dialogue with Pyrrhus (9), and St. Anastasius Bibliothecarius (10), make similar defence for Honorius. Graveson, in confirmation of this (11), very properly remarks, that as St. Cyril, in his dispute with Nestorius, said, in Catholic sense, that the nature of the Incarnate Word was one, and the Eutychians seized on the expression as favourable to them, in the same manner, Honorius saying that Christ had one will (that is, that he had not, like us, two opposite wills one defective, the will of the flesh, and one correct, the will of the Spirit), the Monothelites availed themselves of it to defend their errors. 8. We do not, by any means, deny that Honorius was in error, when he imposed silence on those who discussed the question of one or two wills in Christ, because when the matter in dispute is erroneous, it is only favouring error to impose silence. Wherever there is error it ought to be exposed and combated, and it was here that Honorius was wrong; but it is fact beyond contradiction, that Honorius never fell into the Monothelite heresy, notwithstanding what heretical writers assert, and especially William Cave (12), who says it is labour in vain to try and defend him from his charge. The learned Noel Alexander clearly proves that it cannot be laid to his charge (13), and in answer to the great argument adduced by our adversaries, that in the Thirteenth Act of the Sixth Council it was declared that he was anathematized Anathematizari praevidimus, et Honorium eo quod invenimus per scripta, quae ab eo facto sunt ad Sergium, quia in omnibus ejus mentem secutus est, et impia dogmata confirmavit" replies that the Synod condemned Honorius, not because he formally embraced the heresy, but on account of the favour he showed the heretics, as Leo II. (Optimo Concilii Interprete, as N. Alex, calls him) writes to Constantine Pogonatus in his Epistle, requesting the confirmation of the Synod. In this letter Leo enumerates the heretics condemned, the fathers of the heresy, Theodore of Pharan, Cyrus of Alexandria, Sergius, Pyrrhus, Paul and Peter, successors in the See of Constantinople he also anathematizes Honorius, not for embracing the error, but for permitting it to go on unmolested: Qui hanc Apostolicain Ecclesiam non Apostolicae Traditionis doctrina lustravit, sed profana proditione immaculatam maculari permisit." He also writes to the Spanish bishops, and tells them that Theodore, Cyrus, and the others are condemned, together with Honorius, who did not, as befitted his Apostolical authority, extinguish the flame of heretical doctrine in the beginning, but cherished it by negligence. From these and several other sources, then, Noel Alexander proves that Honorius was not condemned by the Sixth Council as heretic, but as favourer of heretics, and for his negligence in putting them down, and that he was very properly condemned, for the favourers of heresy and the authors of it are both equally culpable. He adds that the common opinion of the Sorbonne was, that although Honorius, in his letters, may have written some erroneous opinions, still he only wrote them as private doctor, and in no wise stained the purity of the faith of the Apostolic See and his letters to Sergius, which we quoted in the last paragraph, prove how different his opinions were from those of the Monothelites.

    St. Alphonsus. The History of the Heresies, pg. 181-182

    For Stubborn and AL - HERE ^ we have ANOTHER Doctor of the Church - telling you why your futile attempt to, "destroy the grave error of the sedes", by using the case of Pope Honorius, is doomed and you are "deceived".

    His explanation SHOULD actually satisfy you just as good as any of St. Robert's reasons. You can have your, "Honorius the heretic!", but you can't eat it too...

    He in no way stained the Apostolic See like you would like to smear him with by equating him with the concilar false Popes - who would actually have, and continue to, tarnish and pollute the Apostolic See with heresy, blasphemy, and sacrilege.

    Therefore they are NOT true Popes., and the above from St. Alphonsus makes you look even more intransigent and foolish then you already do (if that were possible).

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #153 on: December 20, 2025, 05:33:48 PM »
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  • He adds that the common opinion of the Sorbonne was, that although Honorius, in his letters, may have written some erroneous opinions, still he only wrote them as private doctor, and in no wise stained the purity of the faith of the Apostolic See ...


    He in no way stained the Apostolic See like you would like to smear him with by equating him with the concilar false Popes - who would actually have, and continue to, tarnish and pollute the Apostolic See with heresy, blasphemy, and sacrilege.

    Therefore they are NOT true Popes.
    Obviously, your conclusion does not follow.

    You in fact set yourself up as pope and declare a new doctrine of the Church - the doctrine of sedevacantism.

    This opinion, that the purity of faith of the Apostolic See was not stained, was because they judged that the teaching of Honorius was as a private doctor.

    What does that mean, private doctor? How do theologians use this term? From what I have seen, it is often used in contradistinction to infallible teaching.

    In any case, it is clear from the fact that theologians have debated this issue of whether a manifest heretic remains pope that there is no Church teaching on the subject, and even St Robert Bellarmine says he would remain pope until judged by a Council not to be pope.

    Let us all face up to the fact that we are in uncharted territory and not set ourselves up as infallible judges on these matters. Let us simply follow the prudent course of the good shepherd Providence gave us in Archbishop Lefebvre.


    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #154 on: December 20, 2025, 05:43:08 PM »
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  • Obviously, your conclusion does not follow.

    You in fact set yourself up as....

    Let us simply follow ...
    Obviously.

    But WHY did Stubborn and AL create the poll in the first place?

    To defeat the, "grave error of SVism". AL admitted flat out and Stubborn is...well, Stubborn.

    YOU may choose to follow +Lefevbre as if he was still alive and he remained time-locked in 1990, but I believe he would have adapted to the situation accordingly because we are dealing with theological principles that cannot be ignored. So contrary to what you assume - that I "set myself up as the pope",  I am utilizing the intellect God gave me to seek answers to important questions that I believe ARE already answered with theological certainty. You may choose NOT to ask those questions - that is your choice - and comes with all the attendant consequences good or bad.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #155 on: December 20, 2025, 06:31:52 PM »
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  • Obviously, your conclusion does not follow.

    You in fact set yourself up as pope and declare a new doctrine of the Church - the doctrine of sedevacantism.

    You're completely missing the point.  It was OP who made his argument against SVism rest upon the premise that Honorius had become a pertinacious heretic.  SkidRow was merely refuting that particular argument, not using it to further any particular contrary position.

    As Skid points out, AL created this poll because he thought he had some slam-dunk argument against sedevacantism, and not just against sedevacantism, but promoting the one Opinion that Bellarmine dealt with in his treatment of the "5 Opinions", namely, that a Pope cannot lose his office short of death or resignation.  He stated precisely that "conclusion" early on in this thread.

    MAJOR:  Honorius was a pertinacious manifest heretic.
    MINOR: Honorius remained Pope his entire life and did not lose the papal office.
    CONCLUSION:  Pertinacious Manifest Heresy does not cause loss of office.

    THIS is what the whole point of this stupid thread was.

    We pointed out early on that the MAJOR is disputed, and therefore, due to the logical principle of peiorem partem sequitur conclusio (logical weakest link, where the conclusion can be no more certain than the weakest of its premises), the CONCLUSION is equally disputed.

    Instead of dealing with the fact that the MAJOR is disputed, he kept wasting everyone's time by just repeating the assertion over and over again, applying the ad nauseam technique.

    "Catholic writers dispute that Honorius ever became a pertinacious manifest heretic."

    To which he would just say ...

    "Third Council of Constantinople declared him a heretic.  Pope Leo II approved the Council."  like the parrot,  "baaaah, baaaah, baaah"

    This whole stupid argument went on interminably, and apparently this dead horse is still being beaten here ... when intellectual honesty would have put an end to it within the first couple pages.

    Despite his brilliant reasoning, which he tries to pretend has the support of an Ecuмenical Council and Pope Leo II ... by far the two most widely held opinions about a heretic pope are those of Bellarmine (ipso facto deposed) and Cajetan (must be "ministerially" deposed), but evidently none of these theologians saw the light of OP's unassailable argument, or else, they would have dropped that opinion.  Bellarmine, for instance, argued that 3 Constantinople didn't condemn Honorius but that some Greeks interpolated his name into the Council texts.  That's a minority opinion, but ... no matter how you slice it, OP's argument fails, but he remains clutching it with his cold dead brain no matter what evidence has been adduced against it.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #156 on: December 20, 2025, 06:42:04 PM »
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  • You in fact set yourself up as pope and declare a new doctrine of the Church - the doctrine of sedevacantism.

    That's just nonsensical gaslighting ... "but you set yourself up as muh pope".  Just stop it.

    What is Catholic doctrine, and sadly the majority of modern R&R reject this, to great peril for their faith ... is that the Church's Magisterium and Public Worship and Universal Discipline and Canonizations cannot, pardon my French ... all turn to shit.  We're not talking here about a mistake here or there in a Papal Encyclical.  If you believe the Conciliar Church is the Catholic Church and that legitimate papal authority turned it to shit, then you don't have the Catholic faith.  People who believe this need to snap out of it.  At that point, it could have turned to shit when the Protestants said it did, or when the Old Catholics said it did.  Who's to know?  You guys keep losing the forest of indefectibility for the trees of infallibility.  We are NOT talking about an error here or there, but a NEW RELIGION that does not have the marks of the True Church founded by Christ ... that's how unrecognizable it is.  If St. Pius X had been timewarped forward to today, would he recognize this as the Catholic Church?  He would most certainly not, but would think it to be some strange new heretical sect, indistinguishable from the Anglicans and the Lutherans.

    And people need to stop hiding behind Archbishop Lefebvre, using him as a sockpuppet to justify this error.

    +Lefebvre stated that the Conciliar Church is in schism and that it does not have the marks of the Church.

    AND, +Lefebvre agreed with the MAJOR premise by affirming that the protection of the Holy Ghost over the Papacy prevents the free exercise of legitimate papal authority from creating this degree of destruction.

    Where he backed away from affirming SVism was that he entertained various possibilities regarding HOW this has happened, and simply fell short of drawing the conclusion because there could be some unknown factor X.  Now, it was a tragic mistake on his part, as unfortunately part of his legacy is that so many modern R&R are in fact very thinly-veiled Old Catholics who are barely holding on to the faith, having thrown the papacy under the bus in order to save Bergoglio and Prevost, so they could put their pictures up in the vestibule, so as not to scare too many people away by thinking them a non-Catholic sect, and by paying lipservice "yep, he's the Pope", that somehow constitutes submission to the Pope.

    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #157 on: December 20, 2025, 06:52:40 PM »
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  • G8k-G8-Hq-Ww-AAJA6e" border="0

    So we definitely need more Thuc Popes to deal with this.


    :jester::jester::jester:


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #158 on: December 20, 2025, 11:27:39 PM »
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  • G8k-G8-Hq-Ww-AAJA6e" border="0

    So we definitely need more Thuc Popes to deal with this.


    :jester::jester::jester:

    Comedy with Kimmage. 

    Your humble submission to this man will undoubtedly keep you safe. 


    Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #159 on: December 20, 2025, 11:33:33 PM »
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  • But I really hope you're imploring the intercession of Pope Saint John Paul II The Great on your faith journey.





    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #160 on: Yesterday at 01:28:30 AM »
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  • Maybe the sedevacantism is frying your brain, but this is not an sspx website.
    Its resistance.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #161 on: Yesterday at 05:41:17 AM »
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  • Obviously.

    But WHY did Stubborn and AL create the poll in the first place?

    To defeat the, "grave error of SVism". AL admitted flat out and Stubborn is...well, Stubborn.

    YOU may choose to follow +Lefevbre as if he was still alive and he remained time-locked in 1990, but I believe he would have adapted to the situation accordingly because we are dealing with theological principles that cannot be ignored. So contrary to what you assume - that I "set myself up as the pope",  I am utilizing the intellect God gave me to seek answers to important questions that I believe ARE already answered with theological certainty. You may choose NOT to ask those questions - that is your choice - and comes with all the attendant consequences good or bad.

    You are another sede with sedeism on the brain syndrome. Do I believe sedeism is gravely wrong, yes I do - BUT, I hope the sedes' opinion is right, which is something that I, contrary to sedes, am certain that none of us will never know in this world. If I am wrong, so what? If the sedes are right, Deo Gratias!   

    Speaking for myself, I avoid any and all opinions that turn into de fide doctrines among those who hold such opinions, sedeism is one of those opinions.

    You will never understand this, but the reason that I have always avoided sedeism is because it's adherents separate themselves from other Catholics and insist that those who disagree with their opinion-turned-de fide-doctrine are all heretics. Neither is a trait of faithful Catholics, never has been, never will be. 

    So sthu with your bs that I'm out to "destroy the wrong-headed sedes," if such a thing happens, it is most likely that the sedes will have done it to themselves without the slightest bit of help from me.   

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #162 on: Yesterday at 08:09:46 AM »
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  • Maybe the sedevacantism is frying your brain, but this is not an sspx website.
    Its resistance.

    This website ceased to be Resistance some years ago; though info about the Resistance is sometimes tolerated, at best. It is sedevacantist now. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SkidRowCatholic

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #163 on: Yesterday at 08:27:20 AM »
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  • You are another sede with...

    I avoid any and all opinions that turn into de fide doctrines among those who hold such opinions, sedeism is one of those opinions.

    You will never understand this, but the reason that I have always avoided sedeism is because it's adherents separate themselves from other Catholics and insist that those who disagree with their opinion-turned-de fide-doctrine are all heretics. Neither is a trait of faithful Catholics, never has been, never will be.
    The ol' "opinion" card eh?

    No certainty that a pope cannot run the Church into the shoals and smash all its rigging to bits, throw its sailors overboard, violate the laws of Church from sun up to sun down, mutilate the sacraments, create other doubtful ones, inject condemned heresies and errors into the solemn ordinary magisterium, convoke kayfabe Council's that "bind" Catholics to worldliness, decimate the calendar, reduce disciplines to nothing, enact others that promote sacrilege, carry out a daily regiment of destroying the faith all while seeming to be in bed with Communists, Masons, Abortionists, Homo/TransɛҳuąƖs, heretics, schismatics, pedophiles, and devil worshipers....

    No certain teaching there for you Stubborn - nothing to fall back on. Just, "I will remain the pope's good servant but...:sleep:"

    It's all just opinions for you - little pesky things - floating around in the deluded brains of the "gravely erroneous sedes" you have been railing against for years.
    To be fair, you were raised with a perverted concept of the Papacy and the Church so much of your resistance to the truth is based on your programming.

    I notice you had no rebukes for St. Alphonsus above - why is that? Is it because he will undermine your precious thesis that the Papacy and Church are not polluted in Her ordinary magisterium with errors, heresies, schism, sacrilege, and blasphemy?

    This poll is stupid. It achieves nothing. It proves nothing. It makes you look like the heretics. The, "purity of the Apostolic See" will forever remain intact because this is the promise of Christ that, "the gates of hell" (mouths of heretics) will never prevail against Her.


    But no, you Stubborn the jackass - you would have us all believe like you that it is stained, violated, smeared with all filthiness, poisoned at the source.

    Your opinions are damnable, you have been told countless times for years. How could any Catholic in good conscience share communion with someone who so boldly spreads such errors?

    I think the REAL reason you have never adopted the reasonable and theologically certain position of some sort of SVs is simply because you were raised to be the way you are and have become intransigent by degrees. You try to strawman sedes and say it is their fault you are not of their persuasion because they seem "aloof", or "call others heretic". No. I call bs on you. Sedes could be the nicest, kindness, most welcoming people on the planet, living the most heroically virtuous lives, but you would still come out to fight, "the grave error of the sedes." You always do - why? Because YOUR BELIEFS DON'T SUPPORT CATHOLIC DOCTRINE - and theirs do on this point, so there will ALWAYS be tension, and conflict there. And it ain't some small itty bitty little matter either - it is FUNDAMENTAL to the faith .

    That the hierarchy under the Vicar of Christ cannot lead the whole Church into apostasy, heresy, and schism is dogma - so do you have some other theological answer then? No, instead you twist and pervert the teaching to maintain the semblance of authority - but you gut the dogma of all meaning and trample Her teachings beneath your sullied feet in a vain and blustering attempt and you set yourself up as your own rule of faith  ABOVE the magisterium you claim to submit to.

    So playing the it is just an "opinion" card is lame, weak, pathetic, dishonest, etc.

    Offline Freind

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #164 on: Yesterday at 10:08:26 AM »
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  • So playing the it is just an "opinion" card is lame, weak, pathetic, dishonest, etc.

    The R&R generally have reduced the divine Church to nothing but solemn pronouncements of the magisterium. Everything else is pope fallible opinions of liturgy, laws and disciplines.

    Statements produces casually by St. Thomas, like, "it would be blasphemy to say that the Church does anything in vain"

    As if he only meant solemn dogma!