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Affirm or deny: Pope Honorius remained the Roman Pontiff until his death, even though the Sixth Ecumenical Council formally condemned and anathematized him as a heretic and Pope Leo II ratified that condemnation.

Affirm
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Deny
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Total Members Voted: 9

Author Topic: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case  (Read 30107 times)

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Offline Plenus Venter

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Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
« Reply #120 on: December 15, 2025, 05:04:36 PM »
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  • The fact is indisputable: Honorius I was formally condemned and anathematized as a heretic by the Sixth Ecuмenical Council, yet he remained pope until his death.
    But St Robert Bellarmine did dispute it. He says (see my post above) that he proves the contrary. Does that mean nothing to you?

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #121 on: December 15, 2025, 05:08:38 PM »
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  • Any attempt to deny, evade, or reinterpret this fact not only ignores authentic Church history, 
    Which piece of authentic Church history did St Robert Bellarmine ignore in his defence of Pope Honorius above? Or are you perhaps ignoring some authentic Church history which St Robert Bellarmine brings to light? 


    Offline ArmandLouis

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #122 on: December 15, 2025, 06:37:20 PM »
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  • Which piece of authentic Church history did St Robert Bellarmine ignore in his defence of Pope Honorius above? Or are you perhaps ignoring some authentic Church history which St Robert Bellarmine brings to light?
    Saint Robert Bellarmine’s analysis of Honorius’ letters does not negate the historical fact that Honorius was formally condemned and anathematized as a heretic by the Sixth Ecuмenical Council. While Bellarmine argues that the letters, properly understood, did not contain explicit heresy, this distinction does not alter the Council’s act nor does this historical act depend on agreeing with Bellarmine. Honorius’ name appears in the conciliar decrees labeled “heretic” and “anathema.” The Council did not state that his papal office was vacated; he remained pope until his death. This confirms that a pope can be formally condemned and anathematized without automatically losing the pontificate. Regardless of whether one accepts Bellarmine’s interpretation of the letters or debates Honorius’ moral culpability, the Council’s labeling remains historically verified and unambiguous.

    All this to say, I can fully agree with Saint Robert Bellarmine that Pope Honorius I did not formally teach heresy, and still affirm the historical fact that Pope Honorius remained the Roman Pontiff until his death, even though the Sixth Ecuмenical Council formally condemned and anathematized him as a heretic.



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    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #123 on: December 15, 2025, 09:40:21 PM »
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  • Saint Robert Bellarmine’s analysis of Honorius’ letters does not negate the historical fact that Honorius was formally condemned and anathematized as a heretic by the Sixth Ecuмenical Council. While Bellarmine argues that the letters, properly understood, did not contain explicit heresy, this distinction does not alter the Council’s act nor does this historical act depend on agreeing with Bellarmine. Honorius’ name appears in the conciliar decrees labeled “heretic” and “anathema.” The Council did not state that his papal office was vacated; he remained pope until his death. This confirms that a pope can be formally condemned and anathematized without automatically losing the pontificate. Regardless of whether one accepts Bellarmine’s interpretation of the letters or debates Honorius’ moral culpability, the Council’s labeling remains historically verified and unambiguous.

    All this to say, I can fully agree with Saint Robert Bellarmine that Pope Honorius I did not formally teach heresy, and still affirm the historical fact that Pope Honorius remained the Roman Pontiff until his death, even though the Sixth Ecuмenical Council formally condemned and anathematized him as a heretic.
    But you are ignoring the fact that St Robert Bellarmine says that he proves it is a forgery by continuing to insist that it is historical fact that he was condemned by this Council.

    Offline ArmandLouis

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #124 on: December 15, 2025, 11:00:13 PM »
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  • But you are ignoring the fact that St Robert Bellarmine says that he proves it is a forgery by continuing to insist that it is historical fact that he was condemned by this Council.
      1) Bellarmine does not claim the council’s acts were forged.
      2) The council’s condemnation is accepted by Bellarmine as part of the historical record.
      3)His argument focuses on how to interpret Honorius’ letters, not denying the council’s docuмentation.


    His debate is about interpretation of content, not denial of the docuмented acts.





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    Offline ArmandLouis

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #125 on: Yesterday at 12:41:50 AM »
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  • If that were the case, then he would be partaker of the sin, but they say, Satan spread the heresy "through them" which can only mean through Pope Honorius and the others....

    the contriver of evil - has found instruments suited to his own purpose–namely - Honorius, who was pope of elder Rome - has not been idle in raising *through them* obstacles of error against the full body of the church - the heresy of a single will

    Contriver of evil = Satan
    Instruments = Pope Honorius and the others
    Obstacles of error = the heresy of a single will

    The contriver of evil (Satan) was busy raising through them (pope Honorius and the others)  obstacles of error (heresy) against the whole Church = Satan using Pope Honorius and the others to spread the heresy of a single will against the whole Church.

    He clearly does not imply that any of them merely did not stop the heresy, he says that the heresy was spread through them against the whole Church.
    In addition to the primary sources previously mentioned, these secondary sources are pre‑Vatican II and provide historically reliable accounts:

    Fr. John Chapman, The Condemnation of Pope Honorius (1907, Catholic Truth Society) and his article in the 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia

    Fr. Cuthbert Butler, The Vatican Council 1869–1870 (1930)

    Fr. H. K. Mann, The Lives of the Popes in the Early Middle Ages, 2nd edition, Vol. I, Part I

    Father Chapman notes: “Honorius was mentioned as a heretic in the lessons of the Roman Breviary for June 28th, the feast of St. Leo II, until the 18th century” (p. 116)


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    Offline ArmandLouis

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #126 on: Yesterday at 01:07:33 AM »
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  • If that were the case, then he would be partaker of the sin, but they say, Satan spread the heresy "through them" which can only mean through Pope Honorius and the others....

    the contriver of evil - has found instruments suited to his own purpose–namely - Honorius, who was pope of elder Rome - has not been idle in raising *through them* obstacles of error against the full body of the church - the heresy of a single will

    Contriver of evil = Satan
    Instruments = Pope Honorius and the others
    Obstacles of error = the heresy of a single will

    The contriver of evil (Satan) was busy raising through them (pope Honorius and the others)  obstacles of error (heresy) against the whole Church = Satan using Pope Honorius and the others to spread the heresy of a single will against the whole Church.

    He clearly does not imply that any of them merely did not stop the heresy, he says that the heresy was spread through them against the whole Church.
    Other key references for you if you have not heard of them before:

    Karl Josef von Hefele, History of the Councils, Volume V, the standard Catholic historical treatment of the Sixth Ecuмenical Council and its acts.

    Joseph Pennacchi, De Honorii I, Romani Pontificis, causa in Concilio VI, a specialized scholarly study devoted entirely to the case of Pope Honorius.

    The Liber Diurnus Romanorum Pontificuм, ed. Eugène de Rozière (Paris, 1869), which preserves the papal oath taken from the fifth to the eleventh centuries, explicitly anathematizing Honorius.

    Jacques-Bénigne Bossuet, Defensio Cleri Gallicani, Book VII, chapter 26, who acknowledges both the condemnation of Honorius and the later suppression of references to it.


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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #127 on: Yesterday at 04:52:36 AM »
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    • 1) Bellarmine does not claim the council’s acts were forged.
      2) The council’s condemnation is accepted by Bellarmine as part of the historical record.
      3)His argument focuses on how to interpret Honorius’ letters, not denying the council’s docuмentation.


    His debate is about interpretation of content, not denial of the docuмented acts.

    That is untrue. Saint Robert says the following:

     “Secondly, it was nearly an ordinary custom of the Greeks to corrupt books. For (as we said) in the Sixth Council itself, act 12 and 14, many corruptions were discovered made by heretics in the Fifth Council. And Pope Leo 97 sought from the Greeks why they had corrupted his epistle to Flavian even though he was still living? Pope Gregory asserted that at Constantinople they had corrupted the Council of Chalcedon, and he suspected the same about Ephesus. 98 And he adds, the codices of the Romans by far had greater veracity than those of the Greeks: “Because the Romans, just as they do not have frauds, so also they do not have impostures.””
    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #128 on: Yesterday at 05:35:08 AM »
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  • Satan has spread error through the whole Church through Honorius's negligence in not condemning the heresy, that is the meaning, perhaps even lending credence to the heresy by the wording of his letters. But however you want to define manifest heresy, you could certainly not argue that we have an example here of a pope knowingly and pertinaciously denying a dogma of the Faith, nor of a council believing he did. And then there is the possibility that the condemnation of Honorius was fraudulent, subsequent condemnations just being a repetition of the judgement they thought was made by this council.

    Can you summarize?

    So you are saying that St. Robert holds Pope Honorius and the others as being innocent of heresy? Ok.

    That the Council docuмent with 2 popes officially declaring him and the others of heresy is a fraud? In reality neither the pope nor the others are guilty of heresy?

    Whether Pope Honorius was a heretic or not, we have 2 popes in a council that declared he was, no? Or is the fraud that the crooks inserted his name?   

    If the condemnation of Honorius and the others is fraudulent, what would be the purpose in that unless he was a very vigilant and "anti-single will" pope? - which makes the Council useless and is altogether contrary to what the docuмent actually says.

    ;)

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Plenus Venter

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #129 on: Yesterday at 05:09:18 PM »
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  • Can you summarize?

    So you are saying that St. Robert holds Pope Honorius and the others as being innocent of heresy? Ok.

    That the Council docuмent with 2 popes officially declaring him and the others of heresy is a fraud? In reality neither the pope nor the others are guilty of heresy?

    Whether Pope Honorius was a heretic or not, we have 2 popes in a council that declared he was, no? Or is the fraud that the crooks inserted his name? 

    If the condemnation of Honorius and the others is fraudulent, what would be the purpose in that unless he was a very vigilant and "anti-single will" pope? - which makes the Council useless and is altogether contrary to what the docuмent actually says.

    ;)
    Just read St Robert Bellarmine which I posted above. My opinion is worthless. I would hope no one considers St Robert Bellarmine's opinion of no value.
    We ought not to pontificate and insist that this is historical fact when we have here a saint, eminent scholar, theologian and Doctor of the Church, who studied the question very thoroughly and gives compelling evidence to the contrary.
    Really, what are we making of ourselves when we do such a thing?

    Online Ladislaus

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  • Just read St Robert Bellarmine which I posted above. My opinion is worthless. I would hope no one considers St Robert Bellarmine's opinion of no value.
    We ought not to pontificate and insist that this is historical fact when we have here a saint, eminent scholar, theologian and Doctor of the Church, who studied the question very thoroughly and gives compelling evidence to the contrary.
    Really, what are we making of ourselves when we do such a thing?

    Thank you for the intellectual honesty.  Those posters who are making this argument simply take for granted and assume that their premises are crystal clear.  Someone with no less authority than a St. Robert Bellarmine felt that there was some question about the authenticity of the text that includes the name of Honorius, and, the varying opinions about the implications of what happened or may have happened consume several paragaphs in Catholic Encyclopedia just to summarize.  When the case of Honorius was brought up at Vatican I, it had to do with infallibility, and not attempting to prove that one of the "5 Opinions" which holds that a Pope cannot lose office in any way shape or form, whether ipso facto (Bellarmine) or by ministerial deposition (Cajetan), an opinion which maybe 1 or 2 theologians ever held after St. Robert Bellarmine refuted / rejected it.  So, it's actually irrelevant to the argument at hand since the contrary positions are that MANIFEST heresy, not occult (and both are "objective" heresy, an incorrect term that the main proponent of this argument injected to obscure the distinction) ... that MANIFEST heresy causes loss of membership in the Church.  There's no evidence that anyone during the lifetime of Honorius accused him of heresy, and therefore no evidence that it had ever become manifest.  There's no way to retroactively depose popes, since the implications of that are worse than the issues with dogmatic SVism and dogmatic R&Rism COMBINED ... where you give the assent of faith to something like Vatican I and the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, only, only to find decades later that Pius IX had actually become a non-pope before he defined either of these, and so you mistakenly gave your assent of faith.  If that can happen, then how can you ever give an absolute assent with the certainty of faith to anyting that might be defined in the future, since in the back of you'd be wondering if this too could get overturned some day.


    Online SkidRowCatholic

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  • Thank you for the intellectual honesty. 
    Couldn't agree more.

    Online Ladislaus

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  • Couldn't agree more.

    I find it refreshing.  I'm perfectly find with disagreements, since people are entitled to disagree on the vast majority of points.

    Where I get extremely frustrated is when people lie, and distort, and then they ignore the points you're making, but just re-assert their gratuitious claim repeatedly.

    When someone points out ... "well, it's not as clear-cut as you claim, since it's highly disputed", intellectual honesty requires that you have a look.  Then, if you want to say ... "well, those other opinions are irrelevant, at least to this issue, because ...".  That's OK, even if your because is wrong, since then we move on to the next point in the discussion / debate / argument.

    What isn't OK is just to pretend that information or evidence does not exist and just repeat your assertion ... "Council condemned Honoriuis as a heretic.  Leo II approved."

    Both of these premises we respond to with the old "DISTINGUO".  To the first point, that it's disputed whether Honorius was condemned as a heretic.  To the second, Pope Leo was clearly listing Honorius as being guilty of PERMITTIING the heresy rather than personally adhering to it.  At that point someone might respond that this distinction does not apply here because ...

    But these guys completely ignore that and just keep parroting back their original assertion, committing the "ad nauseam" fallacy.  Imagine a parrot just repeating:  "Baaah.  Honorius heretic.  Leo cofirmed.  Honorius heretic.  Leo confirmed."  Then you say, "wait a minute, I don't think this is clear".  "Baaah.  Honorius heretic.  Leo confirmed."

    This demonstrates intellectual dishonesty where you already decided ahead of time what you want to believe and are not basing your conclusion on an honest and rational and ojective evaluation of the evidence.

    Online SkidRowCatholic

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  • I find it refreshing.  I'm perfectly find with disagreements, since people are entitled to disagree on the vast majority of points.

    Where I get extremely frustrated is when people lie, and distort, and then they ignore the points you're making, but just re-assert their gratuitious claim repeatedly.

    When someone points out ... "well, it's not as clear-cut as you claim, since it's highly disputed", intellectual honesty requires that you have a look.  Then, if you want to say ... "well, those other opinions are irrelevant, at least to this issue, because ...".  That's OK, even if your because is wrong, since then we move on to the next point in the discussion / debate / argument.

    What isn't OK is just to pretend that information or evidence does not exist and just repeat your assertion ... "Council condemned Honoriuis as a heretic.  Leo II approved."

    Both of these premises we respond to with the old "DISTINGUO".  To the first point, that it's disputed whether Honorius was condemned as a heretic.  To the second, Pope Leo was clearly listing Honorius as being guilty of PERMITTIING the heresy rather than personally adhering to it.  At that point someone might respond that this distinction does not apply here because ...

    But these guys completely ignore that and just keep parroting back their original assertion, committing the "ad nauseam" fallacy.  Imagine a parrot just repeating:  "Baaah.  Honorius heretic.  Leo cofirmed.  Honorius heretic.  Leo confirmed."  Then you say, "wait a minute, I don't think this is clear".  "Baaah.  Honorius heretic.  Leo confirmed."

    This demonstrates intellectual dishonesty where you already decided ahead of time what you want to believe and are not basing your conclusion on an honest and rational and ojective evaluation of the evidence.
    Yes all this.

    But, I am 99% certain AL is "Catholic Trumpet Guy", and I have had it out with him elsewhere on this some time ago. He knows ALL this already. He doesn't care. His mission is to, "defeat the evil sedes." not the pursuit of truth in this matter. 

    Offline Stubborn

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  • Just read St Robert Bellarmine which I posted above. My opinion is worthless. I would hope no one considers St Robert Bellarmine's opinion of no value.
    We ought not to pontificate and insist that this is historical fact when we have here a saint, eminent scholar, theologian and Doctor of the Church, who studied the question very thoroughly and gives compelling evidence to the contrary.
    Really, what are we making of ourselves when we do such a thing?
    I respect St. Robert a great deal along with his findings, and what he says even makes sense to me, at the same time there's the elephant in the room - you must admit it is odd that after 1100 years and some 180 popes later, that nobody has corrected the encyclical, nor has anyone even said anything about it except St. Robert, it still says what it says, which, if St. Robert is right, amounts to the Church purposely publishing and promulgating at least an erroneous encyclical or an outright fraudulent one for the last 1100 years.    
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse