Author Topic: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case (Read 179544 times)

ArmandLouis · « **Reply #60 on:** December 13, 2025, 09:57:54 PM »

Quote from: Plenus Venter on December 13, 2025, 09:42:16 PM

This is very controversial history.

I would simply say that no one should be too ready to consider Pope Honorius to have been a heretic without first reading St Robert Bellarmine's very thorough consideration of the question in his defence.

In relation to this affirmation, in particular, St Robert has this answer:

What if someone were brought in that could not believe that the Sixth Council would be corrupted; he could look to another solution, which is in Juan de Torquemada. He teaches that the Fathers of the Sixth Council condemned Honorius but from false information, and hence erred in that judgement. Although a legitimate general council could not err in defining dogmas of faith (and the Sixth council did not), still it could err in questions of fact. Therefore, we can safely say that those Fathers were deceived by false rumours and did not understand the epistles of Honorius, and wrongly enumerated Honorius with the heretics.

So one would not have to deny the authority of these councils. We are not dealing with definitions of faith or morals.

Although I agree that theologians have long exercised caution in assessing Honorius’s personal culpability. However, the question at issue is not our personal readiness to judge him, but the historical fact that the Sixth Ecuмenical Council anathematized Honorius by name, that Pope Leo II confirmed that judgment, and that the Eighth Ecuмenical Council explicitly reaffirmed the Sixth and repeated its list, including Honorius.

A pope can be personally negligent or doctrinally erroneous in a non-definitive way, and even be posthumously condemned, without having taught heresy ex cathedra or thereby automatically losing the papal office.

Plenus Venter · « **Reply #61 on:** December 13, 2025, 10:56:54 PM »

Quote from: ArmandLouis on December 13, 2025, 09:57:54 PM

However, the question at issue is not our personal readiness to judge him, but the historical fact that the Sixth Ecuмenical Council anathematized Honorius by name, that Pope Leo II confirmed that judgment, and that the Eighth Ecuмenical Council explicitly reaffirmed the Sixth and repeated its list, including Honorius.

Oh, I thought the question was "heretic but pope until death? (Pope Honorius I case)".

The answer seems to be: "not at all certain that he was a heretic, quite possibly (perhaps even probably) not".

Plenus Venter · « **Reply #62 on:** December 13, 2025, 11:02:47 PM »

Quote from: Plenus Venter on December 13, 2025, 10:56:54 PM

Oh, I thought the question was "heretic but pope until death? (Pope Honorius I case)".

The answer seems to be: "not at all certain that he was a heretic, quite possibly (perhaps even probably) not".

Perhaps you are making the point that these Councils considered him to be a heretic, yet he was not posthumously stripped of office.

There seems to be some merit in that argument, yet it still does not involve the Church's infallible magisterium.

ArmandLouis · « **Reply #63 on:** December 13, 2025, 11:31:33 PM »

Quote from: Plenus Venter on December 13, 2025, 11:02:47 PM

Perhaps you are making the point that these Councils considered him to be a heretic, yet he was not posthumously stripped of office.

There seems to be some merit in that argument, yet it still does not involve the Church's infallible magisterium.

Just as Pope Honorius I did not teach heresy ex cathedra, an impossibility, he remained pope until his death, despite being anathematized as a heretic by the Sixth Ecuмenical Council, confirmed by Pope Leo II, and reaffirmed by the Eighth Ecuмenical Council. The councils judged his theological error, not the legitimacy of his office. By the same principle, no earthly authority can remove a pope, and post-Vatican II popes likewise retain the papal office until death or valid resignation, even if their non-ex cathedra teachings are or were theologically erroneous propositions, opinions suspected of heresy, or opinions approaching heresy. Such teachings may also render a pope materially heretical, meaning the error exists in the teaching without imputing formal, obstinate heresy to the person. They can, however, be posthumously condemned and anathematized as heretics by a council and ratified by a pope, just as Honorius I was.

ArmandLouis · « **Reply #64 on:** December 13, 2025, 11:55:11 PM »

According to the platform, this post has been read 2,587 times. By God’s grace through the Blessed Virgin Mary, it continues to reach many more souls. By this same grace, it is hoped that it may help them reject the spiritual death of human reason alone that the error of sedevacantism spreads, and guide those called to truly embrace the mission of Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX of old.

I can say no more without risking verbosity. May God forgive me if I have exceeded its bounds. It is time to sign off and leave the work in the hands of the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Vive le Christ-Roi! Vive la papauté! Vive le pape! Vive sa Mère, la Reine, et son Cœur Immaculé! Et vive les bons prêtres!

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Poll

Affirm or deny: Pope Honorius remained the Roman Pontiff until his death, even though the Sixth Ecumenical Council formally condemned and anathematized him as a heretic and Pope Leo II ratified that condemnation.

Author Topic: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case (Read 179544 times)

ArmandLouis

Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case

Plenus Venter

Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case

Plenus Venter

Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case

ArmandLouis

Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case

ArmandLouis

Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case