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Affirm or deny: Pope Honorius remained the Roman Pontiff until his death, even though the Sixth Ecumenical Council formally condemned and anathematized him as a heretic and Pope Leo II ratified that condemnation.

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Author Topic: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case  (Read 5591 times)

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Offline ArmandLouis

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Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2025, 04:37:27 PM »
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  • No it doesn't prove "a pope can be a heretic and still be a pope." Honorius was condemned for not doing enough to police the heresy, not because he himself was a heretic. The quote from Leo II that you provided says:

    “And in like manner we anathematize the inventors of the new error, that is, Theodore, Bishop of Pharan, Cyrus of Alexandria, Sergius, Pyrrhus, Paul, and Peter, betrayers rather than leaders of the Church of Constantinople, and also Honorius, who did not attempt to sanctify this Apostolic Church with the teaching of apostolic tradition, but by profane treachery permitted its purity to be polluted.

    — Pope St. Leo II

    Honorius "did not attempt to sanctify [the Church]" and "permitted [the Church] purity to be polluted." Which is to say, he was a Pope who did not do his job. That is different from being a "heretic."

    Pope St. Leo II anathematizes Honorius for permitting the Monothelite heresy, while the inventors of the error are not explicitly called heretics in the same formula, since the dogmatic Sixth Ecuмenical Council had already condemned and anathematized them as heretics:

    “To Honorius, the heretic, anathema!“


    In Session XVI of the Sixth Ecuмenical Council (680–681), Honorius I was formally labeled a “heretic”, alongside other Monothelite leaders, yet he remained pope until his death. The council’s acclamation reads verbatim:

    “To Theodore of Pharan, the heretic, anathema!
    To Sergius, the heretic, anathema!
    To Cyrus, the heretic, anathema!
    To Honorius, the heretic, anathema!
    To Pyrrhus, the heretic, anathema!
    To Paul, the heretic, anathema!
    To Peter, the heretic, anathema!
    To Macarius, the heretic, anathema!
    To Stephen, the heretic, anathema!
    To Polychronius, the heretic, anathema!
    To Apergius of Perga, the heretic, anathema!
    To all heretics, anathema!
    To all who side with heretics, anathema!”

    — Nicene and Post‑Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. XIV: The Sixth Ecuмenical Council, Session XVI

    The council language itself used the word “heretic” in association with his name.

    The dogmatic decree itself (as recorded in Mansi, Sacrorum Conciliorum, Tomus XI, cols. 635‑637) also states:

    “…Honorius, qui fuit Papa antiquae Romae… haeretico anathema…”

    English: “…Honorius, who was Pope of Old Rome… anathema to the heretic…”

    The Council repeatedly identified Honorius as a heretic, both in the acclamations of the bishops and in the formal dogmatic decree.

    Notice in Pope St. Leo II’s own words:

    And in like manner we anathematize the inventors of the new error, that is, Theodore, Bishop of Pharan, Cyrus of Alexandria, Sergius, Pyrrhus, Paul, and Peter, betrayers rather than leaders of the Church of Constantinople, and also Honorius…”



    Vive les bons prêtres !

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #46 on: December 12, 2025, 06:09:45 PM »
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  • Pope St. Leo II anathematizes Honorius for permitting the Monothelite heresy, while the inventors of the error are not explicitly called heretics in the same formula, since the dogmatic Sixth Ecuмenical Council had already condemned and anathematized them as heretics:

    “To Honorius, the heretic, anathema!“


    In Session XVI of the Sixth Ecuмenical Council (680–681), Honorius I was formally labeled a “heretic”, alongside other Monothelite leaders, yet he remained pope until his death. The council’s acclamation reads verbatim:

    “To Theodore of Pharan, the heretic, anathema!
    To Sergius, the heretic, anathema!
    To Cyrus, the heretic, anathema!
    To Honorius, the heretic, anathema!
    To Pyrrhus, the heretic, anathema!
    To Paul, the heretic, anathema!
    To Peter, the heretic, anathema!
    To Macarius, the heretic, anathema!
    To Stephen, the heretic, anathema!
    To Polychronius, the heretic, anathema!
    To Apergius of Perga, the heretic, anathema!
    To all heretics, anathema!
    To all who side with heretics, anathema!”

    — Nicene and Post‑Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. XIV: The Sixth Ecuмenical Council, Session XVI

    The council language itself used the word “heretic” in association with his name.

    The dogmatic decree itself (as recorded in Mansi, Sacrorum Conciliorum, Tomus XI, cols. 635‑637) also states:

    “…Honorius, qui fuit Papa antiquae Romae… haeretico anathema…”

    English: “…Honorius, who was Pope of Old Rome… anathema to the heretic…”

    The Council repeatedly identified Honorius as a heretic, both in the acclamations of the bishops and in the formal dogmatic decree.

    Notice in Pope St. Leo II’s own words:

    And in like manner we anathematize the inventors of the new error, that is, Theodore, Bishop of Pharan, Cyrus of Alexandria, Sergius, Pyrrhus, Paul, and Peter, betrayers rather than leaders of the Church of Constantinople, and also Honorius…”

    Those people were using the word "heretic" in a way that is not defined by the Church. The Church provides the definition in Canon Law. What Leo II describes Honorius as doing does not meet the criterion of what the Church call heresy today. And that definition has been in place for quite a while.

    We must use terminology the way that the Church authorizes it. And Pope Leo II, in his declaration, did not call Honorius a "heretic." He simply described what he failed to do and anathematized him for his failures. You will notice that failures in governance do not fit the definition of "heresy," which you will find in bold below.


    Canon 1325 (1983 CIC 209, 751, 755)

    § 1. The faithful of Christ are bound to profess their faith whenever their silence, evasiveness,
    or manner of acting encompasses an implied denial of the faith, contempt for religion, injury to
    God, or scandal for a neighbor.

    § 2. After the reception of baptism, if anyone, retaining the name Christian, pertinaciously
    denies or doubts something to be believed from the truth of divine and Catholic faith, [such a one
    is] a heretic; if he completely turns away from the Christian faith, [such a one is] an apostate; if
    finally he refuses to be under the Supreme Pontiff or refuses communion with the members of the
    Church subject to him, he is a schismatic.

    § 3. Let Catholics beware lest they have debates or conferences, especially public ones, with
    non-Catholics without having come to the Holy See or, if the case is urgent, to the local Ordinary.




    Offline ArmandLouis

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #47 on: December 12, 2025, 07:36:00 PM »
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  • Those people were using the word "heretic" in a way that is not defined by the Church. The Church provides the definition in Canon Law. What Leo II describes Honorius as doing does not meet the criterion of what the Church call heresy today. And that definition has been in place for quite a while.

    We must use terminology the way that the Church authorizes it. And Pope Leo II, in his declaration, did not call Honorius a "heretic." He simply described what he failed to do and anathematized him for his failures. You will notice that failures in governance do not fit the definition of "heresy," which you will find in bold below.


    Canon 1325 (1983 CIC 209, 751, 755)

    § 1. The faithful of Christ are bound to profess their faith whenever their silence, evasiveness,
    or manner of acting encompasses an implied denial of the faith, contempt for religion, injury to
    God, or scandal for a neighbor.

    § 2. After the reception of baptism, if anyone, retaining the name Christian, pertinaciously
    denies or doubts something to be believed from the truth of divine and Catholic faith, [such a one
    is] a heretic; if he completely turns away from the Christian faith, [such a one is] an apostate; if
    finally he refuses to be under the Supreme Pontiff or refuses communion with the members of the
    Church subject to him, he is a schismatic.

    § 3. Let Catholics beware lest they have debates or conferences, especially public ones, with
    non-Catholics without having come to the Holy See or, if the case is urgent, to the local Ordinary.
    Canon Law governs discipline, not dogma, and cannot reinterpret or nullify the judgment of an Ecuмenical Council, as St. Robert Bellarmine explains in De Romano Pontifice, Book IV.

    The Sixth Ecuмenical Council judged Honorius in the external forum and condemned and anathematized him as a heretic without presuming to judge the internal state of his soul before God. The council records and acclamations read in the Sixteenth Session: “Anathema to the heretic Sergius, to the heretic Cyrus, to the heretic Honorius, to Pyrrhus, to Paul, to Peter, and to all heretics and those who side with heretics” as recorded in Nicene and Post‑Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. XIV, Session XVI and in Mansi, Sacrorum Conciliorum, Tomus XI, cols. 635‑637.

    Pope St. Leo II ratified the Council and personally anathematized Honorius for permitting the Monothelite heresy to corrupt apostolic doctrine. This judgment concerns public doctrinal failure and heretical deviation and not mere administrative negligence. The text of his letter to the Emperor and the bishops of Constantinople confirming the Council reads in Mansi XI, cols. 726‑728 and is included in the Roman Breviary prior to 1955.

    An anathema is a juridical and doctrinal act of the Church against heresy or its culpable promotion, whether or not the word heretic is explicitly repeated in every formula. St. Thomas Aquinas explains in Summa Theologiae, II-II, q.11, a.2, that such acts concern external forum judgments.

    Honorius remained Pope until death and was condemned posthumously. This demonstrates that a pope can objectively fall into heresy and still remain pope and that only the Church, through an Ecuмenical Council confirmed by a Pope, can render such a judgment without compromising indefectibility.

    Council-Ordered Letter Destruction, Mansi XI, which burned Honorius’s letters to Sergius for heretical content.
    Decree of Faith, Session XVIII, Mansi XI, which declares Honorius a tool of error for Monothelitism.
    Report to Emperor Constantine IV, Mansi XI, confirming Honorius “has been punished with exclusion and anathema.”
    Letter to Pope Agatho, Mansi XI, formally recognizing his culpability.
    Imperial Decree, Mansi XI, condemning Honorius as “the confirmer of heresy.”
    Trullan Canons, Canon 10/11, Denzinger, pre‑1955 edition, listing Honorius among those condemned.
    Seventh Ecuмenical Council Affirmation, Acts of Nicaea II, 787, confirming adherence to the Sixth Council’s anathemas.
    Roman Copy of the Acts, Vita Leonis II, Mansi XI, cols. 637‑638, preserving Honorius’s name.
    Papal Oath in Liber Diurnus, Forcella edition, 1888, in which newly elected popes swore against Monothelite originators, explicitly naming Honorius.
    Roman Breviary Pre‑1955 and Bossuet Commentary, listing Honorius among those excommunicated by the Sixth Council.


    Vive les bons prêtres !

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #48 on: December 12, 2025, 07:45:07 PM »
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  • Canon Law governs discipline, not dogma, and cannot reinterpret or nullify the judgment of an Ecuмenical Council, as St. Robert Bellarmine explains in De Romano Pontifice, Book IV.

    The Sixth Ecuмenical Council judged Honorius in the external forum and condemned and anathematized him as a heretic without presuming to judge the internal state of his soul before God. The council records and acclamations read in the Sixteenth Session: “Anathema to the heretic Sergius, to the heretic Cyrus, to the heretic Honorius, to Pyrrhus, to Paul, to Peter, and to all heretics and those who side with heretics” as recorded in Nicene and Post‑Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. XIV, Session XVI and in Mansi, Sacrorum Conciliorum, Tomus XI, cols. 635‑637.

    Pope St. Leo II ratified the Council and personally anathematized Honorius for permitting the Monothelite heresy to corrupt apostolic doctrine. This judgment concerns public doctrinal failure and heretical deviation and not mere administrative negligence. The text of his letter to the Emperor and the bishops of Constantinople confirming the Council reads in Mansi XI, cols. 726‑728 and is included in the Roman Breviary prior to 1955.

    An anathema is a juridical and doctrinal act of the Church against heresy or its culpable promotion, whether or not the word heretic is explicitly repeated in every formula. St. Thomas Aquinas explains in Summa Theologiae, II-II, q.11, a.2, that such acts concern external forum judgments.

    Honorius remained Pope until death and was condemned posthumously. This demonstrates that a pope can objectively fall into heresy and still remain pope and that only the Church, through an Ecuмenical Council confirmed by a Pope, can render such a judgment without compromising indefectibility.

    Council-Ordered Letter Destruction, Mansi XI, which burned Honorius’s letters to Sergius for heretical content.
    Decree of Faith, Session XVIII, Mansi XI, which declares Honorius a tool of error for Monothelitism.
    Report to Emperor Constantine IV, Mansi XI, confirming Honorius “has been punished with exclusion and anathema.”
    Letter to Pope Agatho, Mansi XI, formally recognizing his culpability.
    Imperial Decree, Mansi XI, condemning Honorius as “the confirmer of heresy.”
    Trullan Canons, Canon 10/11, Denzinger, pre‑1955 edition, listing Honorius among those condemned.
    Seventh Ecuмenical Council Affirmation, Acts of Nicaea II, 787, confirming adherence to the Sixth Council’s anathemas.
    Roman Copy of the Acts, Vita Leonis II, Mansi XI, cols. 637‑638, preserving Honorius’s name.
    Papal Oath in Liber Diurnus, Forcella edition, 1888, in which newly elected popes swore against Monothelite originators, explicitly naming Honorius.
    Roman Breviary Pre‑1955 and Bossuet Commentary, listing Honorius among those excommunicated by the Sixth Council.

    The juridical act of anathematizing the Honorius for his bad behavior related to his not properly policing "heresy" is not "heresy" itself. But the person doing that could be "suspected to heresy." A Pope doing that, however, could not be judged in that way while alive because "the First See is judged by no one."

    Canon 2315 (1983 Code NA)

    One suspected of heresy who, having been warned, does not remove the cause of suspicion is
    prohibited from legitimate acts; if he is a cleric, moreover, the warning having been repeated
    without effect, he is suspended from things divine; but if within six months from contracting the
    penalty, the one suspected of heresy does not completely amend himself, let him be considered as
    a heretic and liable to the penalties for heretic.

    BUT

    Canon 1556 (1983 CIC 1404)

    The First See is judged by no one.



    Offline ArmandLouis

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #49 on: December 12, 2025, 08:05:51 PM »
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  • The juridical act of anathematizing the Honorius for his bad behavior related to his not properly policing "heresy" is not "heresy" itself. But the person doing that could be "suspected to heresy." A Pope doing that, however, could not be judged in that way while alive because "the First See is judged by no one."

    Canon 2315 (1983 Code NA)

    One suspected of heresy who, having been warned, does not remove the cause of suspicion is
    prohibited from legitimate acts; if he is a cleric, moreover, the warning having been repeated
    without effect, he is suspended from things divine; but if within six months from contracting the
    penalty, the one suspected of heresy does not completely amend himself, let him be considered as
    a heretic and liable to the penalties for heretic.

    BUT

    Canon 1556 (1983 CIC 1404)

    The First See is judged by no one.
    “To Honorius, the heretic, anathema!” -Nicene and Post‑Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. XIV, Session XVI
    — Mansi, Sacrorum Conciliorum, Tomus XI, cols. 635–637

    He was still Pope.

    This has been settled by the dogmatic council.

    End of discussion.


    Vive les bons prêtres !


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #50 on: December 12, 2025, 09:10:43 PM »
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  • For my very limited money, the real issue isn't whether or not a particular man wearing a white cassock is legit.  The real issue is that the society of which the man in white is unquestionably the head is a complete fraud, a counterfeit of Holy Mother Church, devouring its own members and endeavoring to eradicate supernatural faith from this world.  We don't just keep our distance from one man, but from the entire, clearly-problematic society/institution/etc.  The fact that we refer to it as the Conciliar Church indicates it is an illegitimate invader -- something not limited to just the one man or his predecessors.  While the lack of any sort of juridical acknowledgement of this reality is a presently-insurmountable obstacle, we all know that thing headquartered in Rome is not Holy Mother Church and is to be avoided at all costs.

    Just as Jesus Christ truly died, why do we think it is impossible that His Mystical Body could die a mystical death, if you will?  If you argue that such a thing simply cannot ever happen, how is what has clearly already occurred substantially different? 
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #51 on: December 12, 2025, 09:25:51 PM »
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  • For my very limited money, the real issue isn't whether or not a particular man wearing a white cassock is legit.  The real issue is that the society of which the man in white is unquestionably the head is a complete fraud, a counterfeit of Holy Mother Church, devouring its own members and endeavoring to eradicate supernatural faith from this world.  We don't just keep our distance from one man, but from the entire, clearly-problematic society/institution/etc.  The fact that we refer to it as the Conciliar Church indicates it is an illegitimate invader -- something not limited to just the one man or his predecessors.  While the lack of any sort of juridical acknowledgement of this reality is a presently-insurmountable obstacle, we all know that thing headquartered in Rome is not Holy Mother Church and is to be avoided at all costs.

    Just as Jesus Christ truly died, why do we think it is impossible that His Mystical Body could die a mystical death, if you will?  If you argue that such a thing simply cannot ever happen, how is what has clearly already occurred substantially different?

    Well many of us believe that it is not only possible that the Mystical Body will die a mystical death, but that it is a certainty that it will.

    See the Catechism of the Catholic Church


    The Church's ultimate trial

    675 Before Christ's second coming the Church must pass through a final trial that will shake the faith of many believers.573 The persecution that accompanies her pilgrimage on earth574 will unveil the "mystery of iniquity" in the form of a religious deception offering men an apparent solution to their problems at the price of apostasy from the truth. The supreme religious deception is that of the Antichrist, a pseudo-messianism by which man glorifies himself in place of God and of his Messiah come in the flesh.575

    676 The Antichrist's deception already begins to take shape in the world every time the claim is made to realize within history that messianic hope which can only be realized beyond history through the eschatological judgement. The Church has rejected even modified forms of this falsification of the kingdom to come under the name of millenarianism,576 especially the "intrinsically perverse" political form of a secular messianism.577

    677 The Church will enter the glory of the kingdom only through this final Passover, when she will follow her Lord in his death and Resurrection.578 The kingdom will be fulfilled, then, not by a historic triumph of the Church through a progressive ascendancy, but only by God's victory over the final unleashing of evil, which will cause his Bride to come down from heaven.579 God's triumph over the revolt of evil will take the form of the Last Judgement after the final cosmic upheaval of this passing world.580

    573 Cf. Lk 18:8; Mt 24:12.
    574 Cf. Lk 21:12; Jn 15:19-20.
    575 Cf. 2 Th 2:4-12; I Th 5:2-3; 2 Jn 7; I Jn 2:1 8, 22.
    576 Cf. DS 3839.
    577 Pius XI, Divini Redemptoris, condemning the "false mysticism" of this "counterfeit of the redemption of the lowly"; cf. GS 20-21.
    578 Cf. Rev 19:1-9.
    579 Cf Rev 13:8; 20:7-10; 21:2-4.
    580 Cf. Rev 20:12 2 Pt 3:12-13.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #52 on: December 12, 2025, 09:35:21 PM »
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  • “To Honorius, the heretic, anathema!” -Nicene and Post‑Nicene Fathers, Second Series, Vol. XIV, Session XVI
    — Mansi, Sacrorum Conciliorum, Tomus XI, cols. 635–637

    He was still Pope.

    This has been settled by the dogmatic council.

    End of discussion.



    Right ... just because you increase the font size and declare "end of discussion", this makes it true.  What a loser!  Get lost, twit.

    St. Robert Bellarmine felt it was questionable, that Honorius' name might have been interpolated later.

    Finally ... are you retarded?  How was Honorius still pope at the time of his condemnation, in 681, when he had died in 638?

    Losers and morons everywhere on CathInfo anymore.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #53 on: December 12, 2025, 09:44:52 PM »
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  • Honorius remained Pope until death and was condemned posthumously. This demonstrates that a pope can objectively fall into heresy and still remain pope and that only the Church, through an Ecuмenical Council confirmed by a Pope, can render such a judgment without compromising indefectibility.

    So ... listen up, moron.  "Objective" heresy, whatever you retardedly mean by the term, which never enters the debate anywhere in the entire discussion of the "5 Opinions" ... has nothing to do with losing membership in the Church.  You can be "objectively" in heresy in an occult manner also.  Occult "objective" heresy does not result in loss of membership in the Church (except if you adhere to one extremely minor opinion).

    Despite your bloviations, which not a few people dispute, according to what's by far the most widely accepted opinion, it's MANIFEST heresy that results in loss of membership in the Church, and subsequent loss of office.  If it had become manifest in 681, by that time Honorius was no longer Pope, and loss of office would have been moot, since he had long prior lost his office due to ... having died.

    You need to prove that Honorius' heresy had been MANIFEST ... WHILE HE WAS STILL POPE, i.e. during his lifetime, when a loss of office could still have occurred.

    He remained Pope until the end of his life because his heresy had not become manifest at any time during his lifetime.  You can be sure in the early 7th century, Catholics were not shy about denouncing heresy, so it if had been evident and manifest to Catholics during his reign that he had been a heretic, the would have risen up and driven him out of the city.

    You need to demonstrate that his heresy was manifest during his lifetime ... and stop being an idiot.

    Offline ArmandLouis

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #54 on: December 12, 2025, 10:36:44 PM »
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  • So ... listen up, moron.  "Objective" heresy, whatever you retardedly mean by the term, which never enters the debate anywhere in the entire discussion of the "5 Opinions" ... has nothing to do with losing membership in the Church.  You can be "objectively" in heresy in an occult manner also.  Occult "objective" heresy does not result in loss of membership in the Church (except if you adhere to one extremely minor opinion).

    Despite your bloviations, which not a few people dispute, according to what's by far the most widely accepted opinion, it's MANIFEST heresy that results in loss of membership in the Church, and subsequent loss of office.  If it had become manifest in 681, by that time Honorius was no longer Pope, and loss of office would have been moot, since he had long prior lost his office due to ... having died.

    You need to prove that Honorius' heresy had been MANIFEST ... WHILE HE WAS STILL POPE, i.e. during his lifetime, when a loss of office could still have occurred.

    He remained Pope until the end of his life because his heresy had not become manifest at any time during his lifetime.  You can be sure in the early 7th century, Catholics were not shy about denouncing heresy, so it if had been evident and manifest to Catholics during his reign that he had been a heretic, the would have risen up and driven him out of the city.

    You need to demonstrate that his heresy was manifest during his lifetime ... and stop being an idiot.
    Ok Ladislaus, please affirm or deny: Pope Honorius remained the Roman Pontiff until his death, even though the Sixth Ecuмenical Council formally condemned and anathematized him as a heretic.
    Vive les bons prêtres !

    Offline ArmandLouis

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #55 on: December 12, 2025, 10:43:38 PM »
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  • Right ... just because you increase the font size and declare "end of discussion", this makes it true.  What a loser!  Get lost, twit.

    St. Robert Bellarmine felt it was questionable, that Honorius' name might have been interpolated later.

    Finally ... are you retarded?  How was Honorius still pope at the time of his condemnation, in 681, when he had died in 638?

    Losers and morons everywhere on CathInfo anymore.
    Yes, although the dogmatic council condemned and anathematized him as a heretic after his death, he never ceased to be Pope.

    [He is traditionally listed as the 71st Pope in the official papal succession.]




    Vive les bons prêtres !


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #56 on: December 13, 2025, 04:52:39 AM »
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  • For my very limited money, the real issue isn't whether or not a particular man wearing a white cassock is legit.  The real issue is that the society of which the man in white is unquestionably the head is a complete fraud, a counterfeit of Holy Mother Church, devouring its own members and endeavoring to eradicate supernatural faith from this world.  We don't just keep our distance from one man, but from the entire, clearly-problematic society/institution/etc.  The fact that we refer to it as the Conciliar Church indicates it is an illegitimate invader -- something not limited to just the one man or his predecessors.  While the lack of any sort of juridical acknowledgement of this reality is a presently-insurmountable obstacle, we all know that thing headquartered in Rome is not Holy Mother Church and is to be avoided at all costs.
    Well said.

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    Just as Jesus Christ truly died, why do we think it is impossible that His Mystical Body could die a mystical death, if you will?  If you argue that such a thing simply cannot ever happen, how is what has clearly already occurred substantially different?
    Sedes need to remember, as popes Pius IX and Pius XII and others have taught, that Christ and the Church are one and the same thing, as such, the Church on earth can no more be destroyed or cease to exist than Christ can be destroyed or cease to exist - because they are "one and the same thing." This is the indefectibility of the Church, which requires a strong faith to believe in -  especially in these days.

     "Knowing that Christ rising again from the dead, dieth now no more, death shall no more have dominion over him."   
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #57 on: December 13, 2025, 05:19:00 AM »
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  • Ok Ladislaus, please affirm or deny: Pope Honorius remained the Roman Pontiff until his death, even though the Sixth Ecuмenical Council formally condemned and anathematized him as a heretic.
    This is something Lad cannot get himself to do because he has said that if he ever believed such a thing that he would be bound to follow the pope and go whole hog Novus Ordo. He's either pope or a heretic, there is no being both at the same time.

    Otherwise, what he repeatedly accuses of others of being umpteen times over the years, he would now be. He would have to admit that he is a vile old catholic heretic because it's blasphemous to believe that popes can be a heretic and remain pope.

    But before any of that, please know and believe that we forgive you Lad.:incense:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Freind

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #58 on: December 13, 2025, 08:35:48 AM »
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  • Sedes need to remember, as popes Pius IX and Pius XII and others have taught, that Christ and the Church are one and the same thing, as such, the Church on earth can no more be destroyed or cease to exist than Christ can be destroyed or cease to exist - because they are "one and the same thing." This is the indefectibility of the Church, which requires a strong faith to believe in -  especially in these days.

    All Sedes remember that very well.
    It's actually destroying the Church when one thinks a true pope can promote heresy throughout the Church.

    Offline Catholic Knight

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    Re: Affirm or Deny: Heretic Yet Pope Until Death? (Pope Honorius I case
    « Reply #59 on: December 13, 2025, 08:38:26 AM »
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  • Again, Popes are limited human creatures. They do not have the power to time-travel. Nor do they have the power to make dogmatically certain judgements about the internal forum. Stop trying to turn disciplinary statements into dogmatic statements.

    Correct.  Human judgments about the internal forum can be had at most with moral certitude.