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Author Topic: ‘Accidentally’ in the Church?  (Read 2525 times)

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Offline Carissima

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‘Accidentally’ in the Church?
« on: March 10, 2021, 02:49:59 PM »
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  • What is this belief that ‘good’ people that are kind and charitable could be living the life of a Catholic but not know it? 
    Then they die in the ‘Faith’ and believing in something better, but it just happens to be Jesus though they don’t have a clear understanding of that so Christ covers for them?

    This is a Novus Ordo idea believed by some of my family members. 

    What is a clear dogmatic Teaching of the Church that will contradict this lie?
    They seem to get around the ‘Outside the Church/no Salvation’, by saying these beautiful souls are in the Church without knowing it because they lived the life of Christ by good works. 

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ‘Accidentally’ in the Church?
    « Reply #1 on: March 10, 2021, 03:00:54 PM »
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  • Yep, that's the standard line of attack against EENS dogma ... at least by people who admit that EENS is a dogma that must be believed.

    Since there's no salvation outside the Church, the way to expand the "hope of salvation," as Karl Rahner called it, is to expand the definition of Church.

    So EENS becomes a "tautology", a "meaningless formula."  No salvation outside the Church, well, duh, that's because everyone who's saved is inside the Church.

    What you describe is similar to the Modernist Karl Rahner's notion of "αnσnymσus Christianity".


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ‘Accidentally’ in the Church?
    « Reply #2 on: March 10, 2021, 03:10:34 PM »
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  • Unfortunately, refuting this requires volumes.  Now, the dogmas involved that there's no salvation outside the Church do not prove this to them because they simply redefine what it means to be outside the Church.

    There are so many ways they attack EENS, that it requires hundreds of pages to address them all.

    I'm sure I'll get raked over the coals for this, but the best overall comprehensive treatment is here ...
    https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholic_church_salvation_faith_and_baptism.php

    For those who do not WANT to believe that non-Catholics can't be saved, there's hardly any convincing them.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ‘Accidentally’ in the Church?
    « Reply #3 on: March 10, 2021, 03:12:48 PM »
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  • This is a Novus Ordo idea believed by some of my family members.

    Sadly, this idea is not limited to Novus Ordo Catholics, but is also prevalent among Traditional Catholics as well.

    Offline Cryptinox

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    Re: ‘Accidentally’ in the Church?
    « Reply #4 on: March 10, 2021, 08:05:29 PM »
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  • Unfortunately, refuting this requires volumes.  Now, the dogmas involved that there's no salvation outside the Church do not prove this to them because they simply redefine what it means to be outside the Church.

    There are so many ways they attack EENS, that it requires hundreds of pages to address them all.

    I'm sure I'll get raked over the coals for this, but the best overall comprehensive treatment is here ...
    https://www.mostholyfamilymonastery.com/catholic_church_salvation_faith_and_baptism.php

    For those who do not WANT to believe that non-Catholics can't be saved, there's hardly any convincing them.
    I am glad you said this. I get so annoyed when I see novus ordo publications like Catholic Answers reducing EENS to a meaningless formula using sophistry.
    I recant many opinions on the crisis in the Church and moral theology that I have espoused on here from at least 2019-2021 don't take my postings from that time as well as 2022 possibly too seriously.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: ‘Accidentally’ in the Church?
    « Reply #5 on: March 11, 2021, 06:36:56 AM »
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  • What is this belief that ‘good’ people that are kind and charitable could be living the life of a Catholic but not know it?
    It's called Naturalism.  Fr. Wathen explains... "...the philosophical basis of liberalism is what we call Naturalism. Naturalism proclaims, among other heresies, that there is no such thing as original sin, that man is basically good, that he means well and if you let him grow up, he’ll grow up good, he’ll grow up moral, he’ll grow up to be a good fellow".

    He continues:
     
    "But Catholic doctrine says that man is not basically good, that he comes into the world bent on evil and if you leave him to himself, he’ll become a savage, he’ll become amoral. He’ll not only do most wicked things but he will try to justify them..."





    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline josefamenendez

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    Re: ‘Accidentally’ in the Church?
    « Reply #6 on: March 11, 2021, 07:41:01 AM »
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  • EENS is so hard, I know I have to believe it .. this thread came at a weird moment.
    A young (40ish) black man who is an acquaintance through friends had limited intellectual capacity and some delusional ideology suffered a life of rejection and abandonment with a crackhead mother, violent death of family members, homelessness and frequent imprisonment. Some of the prison was truly unwarranted. He was not a violent but a gentle person although somehow he managed to get into many fights. He said he believed in God but seemed unable to absorb more. He was nice despite all- I know that doesn't mean much. He died recently but I'm not sure how; maybe drugs.
    I'm not writing this to trip anyone up or evilly play on people's heartstrings, and I must believe what the Church says. But I find it terribly hard to think God created this person just to suffer so here on earth (much through no fault of his own) and then for eternity in hell. I know God's Mercy is tempered with his Justice, but  EENS has always been the most difficult for me to digest. In the natural, it is hard to see the justice. I have been told by my priest that it is useless to pray for the souls of non- Catholic deceased as well (EENS). I can understand why people are looking for loopholes around it. I feel terrible about this.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: ‘Accidentally’ in the Church?
    « Reply #7 on: March 11, 2021, 07:53:07 AM »
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  • What is this belief that ‘good’ people that are kind and charitable could be living the life of a Catholic but not know it?
    Then they die in the ‘Faith’ and believing in something better, but it just happens to be Jesus though they don’t have a clear understanding of that so Christ covers for them?

    This is a Novus Ordo idea believed by some of my family members.

    What is a clear dogmatic Teaching of the Church that will contradict this lie?
    They seem to get around the ‘Outside the Church/no Salvation’, by saying these beautiful souls are in the Church without knowing it because they lived the life of Christ by good works.

    The poison of "the spirit in Vatican II", is that one can do whatever they want and find  a priest, bishop, pope, books, volumes, that will support them in their desires. The chosen chastisement for our times is no noticeable chastisement. God has abandoned even Catholics to their own desires, even to the point of throwing to them hireling clergy that will confirm them in whatever sin they desire. Scarcely can you find a Catholic that thinks anything but that we are living in the best of times. Truly we are living in the time described in 2 Timothy:


    Quote
    For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears (2 Tim 4:3)

    Saint John Eudes  wrote in "The Priest, His Dignity and Obligations":

    Quote
    “The most evident mark of God’s anger and the most terrible castigation He can inflict upon the world are manifested when He permits His people to fall into the hands of clergy who are priests more in name than in deed, priests who practice the cruelty of ravening wolves rather than charity and affection of devoted shepherds ...
     
    “When God permits such things, it is a very positive proof that He is thoroughly angry with His people, and is visiting His most dreadful anger upon them. That is why He cries unceasingly to Christians, ‘Return O ye revolting children ... and I will give you pastors according to My own heart’. (Jer. 3:14,15) Thus, irregularities in the lives of priests constitute a scourge upon the people in consequence of sin.”
    Good Catholics get what they pray for.

    Catholics who are indifferent, CINO, and fallen away, get what they desire, AS A PUNISHMENT. We have bad clergy today because that is what 99% of Catholics wanted. They wanted priests who let them do and believe whatever they wanted to. That is what they got! What they consider to be great, is in reality A CHATISEMENT from God.

    God's worst chastisement is no chastisement, the people are left to do as they please, God has given them up to their desires, and to blind guides to confirm them in whatever sin they desire.


    Quote
    Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and injustice of those men that detain the truth of God in injustice:
     
    19 Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them.
     
    20 For the invisible things of him, from the creation of the world, are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made; his eternal power also, and divinity: so that they are inexcusable.
     
    21 Because that, when they knew God, they have not glorified him as God, or given thanks; but became vain in their thoughts, and their foolish heart was darkened.
     
    22 For professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
     
    23 And they changed the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds, and of four footed beasts, and of creeping things.
     
    24 Wherefore God gave them up to the desires of their heart, unto uncleanness, to dishonour their own bodies among themselves.
     
    25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie; and worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
     
    26 For this cause God delivered them up to shameful affections. For their women have changed the natural use into that use which is against nature.
     
    27 And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts one towards another, men with men working that which is filthy, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error.
     
    28 And as they liked not to have God in their knowledge, God delivered them up to a reprobate sense, to do those things which are not convenient;
     
    29 Being filled with all iniquity, malice, fornication, avarice, wickedness, full of envy, murder, contention, deceit, malignity, whisperers,
     
    30 Detractors, hateful to God, contumelious, proud, haughty, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
     
    31 Foolish, dissolute, without affection, without fidelity, without mercy.
     
    32 Who, having known the justice of God, did not understand that they who do such things, are worthy of death; and not only they that do them, but they also that consent to them that do them
    (Romans 1:18-32)
    [/quote][/size]


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ‘Accidentally’ in the Church?
    « Reply #8 on: March 11, 2021, 07:55:32 AM »
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  • It's called Naturalism.  Fr. Wathen explains... "...the philosophical basis of liberalism is what we call Naturalism. Naturalism proclaims, among other heresies, that there is no such thing as original sin, that man is basically good, that he means well and if you let him grow up, he’ll grow up good, he’ll grow up moral, he’ll grow up to be a good fellow".

    He continues:
     
    "But Catholic doctrine says that man is not basically good, that he comes into the world bent on evil and if you leave him to himself, he’ll become a savage, he’ll become amoral. He’ll not only do most wicked things but he will try to justify them..."

    And naturalism with regard to the Sacrament of Baptism is in fact nothing other than Pelagianism.

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: ‘Accidentally’ in the Church?
    « Reply #9 on: March 11, 2021, 07:56:08 AM »
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  • EENS is so hard, I know I have to believe it .. this thread came at a weird moment.
    A young (40ish) black man who is an acquaintance through friends had limited intellectual capacity and some delusional ideology suffered a life of rejection and abandonment with a crackhead mother, violent death of family members, homelessness and frequent imprisonment. Some of the prison was truly unwarranted. He was not a violent but a gentle person although somehow he managed to get into many fights. He said he believed in God but seemed unable to absorb more. He was nice despite all- I know that doesn't mean much. He died recently but I'm not sure how; maybe drugs.
    I'm not writing this to trip anyone up or evilly play on people's heartstrings, and I must believe what the Church says

    Here is what the Church says about EENS. 
     

    Quote
    Letter to the Archbishop of Boston
    Author: CDF (Holy Office)
    LETTER OF THE SACRED CONGREGATION OF THE HOLY OFFICE
     
    Archbishop Richard J. Cushing
     
    Given on August 8, 1949 explaining the true sense of Catholic doctrine that there is no salvation outside the Church.
     
    This important Letter of the Holy Office is introduced by a letter of the Most Reverend Archbishop of Boston.
     
    The Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office has examined again the problem of Father Leonard Feeney and St. Benedict Center. Having studied carefully the publications issued by the Center, and having considered all the circuмstances of this case, the Sacred Congregation has ordered me to publish, in its entirety, the letter which the same Congregation sent me on the 8th of August, 1949. The Supreme Pontiff, His Holiness, Pope Pius XII, has given full approval to this decision. In due obedience, therefore, we publish, in its entirety, the Latin text of the letter as received from the Holy Office with an English translation of the same approved by the Holy See.
     
    Given at Boston, Mass., the 4th day of September, 1952.
     
    Walter J. Furlong, Chancellor
     
    Richard J. Cushing, Archbishop of Boston.
     
    LETTER OF THE HOLY OFFICE
     
    From the Headquarters of the Holy Office, Aug. 8, 1949.
     
    Your Excellency:
     
    This Supreme Sacred Congregation has followed very attentively the rise and the course of the grave controversy stirred up by certain associates of "St. Benedict Center" and "Boston College" in regard to the interpretation of that axiom: "Outside the Church there is no salvation."
     
    After having examined all the docuмents that are necessary or useful in this matter, among them information from your Chancery, as well as appeals and reports in which the associates of "St. Benedict Center" explain their opinions and complaints, and also many other docuмents pertinent to the controversy, officially collected, the same Sacred Congregation is convinced that the unfortunate controversy arose from the fact that the axiom, "outside the Church there is no salvation," was not correctly understood and weighed, and that the same controversy was rendered more bitter by serious disturbance of discipline arising from the fact that some of the associates of the institutions mentioned above refused reverence and obedience to legitimate authorities.
     
    Accordingly, the Most Eminent and Most Reverend Cardinals of this Supreme Congregation, in a plenary session held on Wednesday, July 27, 1949, decreed, and the august Pontiff in an audience on the following Thursday, July 28, 1949, deigned to give his approval, that the following explanations pertinent to the doctrine, and also that invitations and exhortations relevant to discipline be given:
     
    We are bound by divine and Catholic faith to believe all those things which are contained in the word of God, whether it be Scripture or Tradition, and are proposed by the Church to be believed as divinely revealed, not only through solemn judgment but also through the ordinary and universal teaching office (<Denzinger>, n. 1792).
     
    Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church.
     
    However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church.
     
    Now, in the first place, the Church teaches that in this matter there is question of a most strict command of Jesus Christ. For He explicitly enjoined on His apostles to teach all nations to observe all things whatsoever He Himself had commanded (Matt. 28: 19-20).
     
    Now, among the commandments of Christ, that one holds not the least place by which we are commanded to be incorporated by baptism into the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Church, and to remain united to Christ and to His Vicar, through whom He Himself in a visible manner governs the Church on earth.
     
    Therefore, no one will be saved who, knowing the Church to have been divinely established by Christ, nevertheless refuses to submit to the Church or withholds obedience from the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ on earth.
     
    Not only did the Savior command that all nations should enter the Church, but He also decreed the Church to be a means of salvation without which no one can enter the kingdom of eternal glory.
     
    In His infinite mercy God has willed that the effects necessary for one to be saved, of those helps to salvation which are directed toward man's final end, not by intrinsic necessity [e.g., sanctifying grae] but only by divine institution, can also be obtained in certain circuмstances when those helps are used only in desire and longing. This we see clearly stated in the Sacred Council of Trent, both in reference to the sacrament of regeneration and in reference to the sacrament of penance (<Denzinger>, nn. 797, 807).
     
    The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.
     
    However, this desire [to enter the Church] need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance [of the Church] God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.
     
    These things are clearly taught in that dogmatic letter which was issued by the Sovereign Pontiff, Pope Pius XII, on June 29, 1943, <On the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ> (AAS, Vol. 35, an. 1943, p. 193 ff.). For in this letter the Sovereign Pontiff clearly distinguishes between those who are actually incorporated into the Church as members, and those who are united to the Church only by desire.
     
    Discussing the members of which the Mystical Body is-composed here on earth, the same august Pontiff says: "Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed."
     
    Toward the end of this same encyclical letter, when most affectionately inviting to unity those who do not belong to the body of the Catholic Church, he mentions those who "are related to the Mystical Body of the Redeemer by a certain unconscious yearning and desire," and these he by no means excludes from eternal salvation, but on the other hand states that they are in a condition "in which they cannot be sure of their salvation" since "they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in the Catholic Church" (AAS, 1. c., p. 243). With these wise words he reproves both those who exclude from eternal salvation all united to the Church only by implicit desire, and those who falsely assert that men can be saved equally well in every religion (cf. Pope Pius IX, Allocution, <Singulari quadam>, in <Denzinger>, n. 1641 ff.; also Pope Pius IX in the encyclical letter, <Quanto conficiamur moerore>, in <Denzinger>, n. 1677).
     
    But it must not be thought that any kind of desire of entering the Church suffices that one may be saved. It is necessary that the desire by which one is related to the Church be animated by perfect charity. Nor can an implicit desire produce its effect, unless a person has supernatural faith: "For he who comes to God must believe that God exists and is a rewarder of those who seek Him" (Heb. 11:6). The Council of Trent declares (Session VI, chap. 8): "Faith is the beginning of man's salvation, the foundation and root of all justification, without which it is impossible to please God and attain to the fellowship of His children" (Denzinger, n. 801).
     
    From what has been said it is evident that those things which are proposed in the periodical <From the Housetops>, fascicle 3, as the genuine teaching of the Catholic Church are far from being such and are very harmful both to those within the Church and those without.
     
    From these declarations which pertain to doctrine, certain conclusions follow which regard discipline and conduct, and which cannot be unknown to those who vigorously defend the necessity by which all are bound' of belonging to the true Church and of submitting to the authority of the Roman Pontiff and of the Bishops "whom the Holy Ghost has placed . . . to rule the Church" (Acts 20:28).
     
    Hence, one cannot understand how the St. Benedict Center can consistently claim to be a Catholic school and wish to be accounted such, and yet not conform to the prescriptions of canons 1381 and 1382 of the Code of Canon Law, and continue to exist as a source of discord and rebellion against ecclesiastical authority and as a source of the disturbance of many consciences.
     
    Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a member of a religious Institute, namely Father Feeney, presents himself as a "Defender of the Faith," and at the same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical instruction proposed by lawful authorities, and has not even feared to incur grave sanctions threatened by the sacred canons because of his serious violations of his duties as a religious, a priest, and an ordinary member of the Church.
     
    Finally, it is in no wise to be tolerated that certain Catholics shall claim for themselves the right to publish a periodical, for the purpose of spreading theological doctrines, without the permission of competent Church authority, called the "<imprimatur,>" which is prescribed by the sacred canons.
     
    Therefore, let them who in grave peril are ranged against the Church seriously bear in mind that after "Rome has spoken" they cannot be excused even by reasons of good faith. Certainly, their bond and duty of obedience toward the Church is much graver than that of those who as yet are related to the Church "only by an unconscious desire." Let them realize that they are children of the Church, lovingly nourished by her with the milk of doctrine and the sacraments, and hence, having heard the clear voice of their Mother, they cannot be excused from culpable ignorance, and therefore to them apply without any restriction that principle: submission to the Catholic Church and to the Sovereign Pontiff is required as necessary for salvation.
     
    In sending this letter, I declare my profound esteem, and remain,
     
    Your Excellency's most devoted,
     
    F. Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani.
     
    A. Ottaviani, Assessor.

    Does Ladislaus accept this teaching of the Holy Office?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ‘Accidentally’ in the Church?
    « Reply #10 on: March 11, 2021, 08:16:23 AM »
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  • EENS is so hard, I know I have to believe it .. this thread came at a weird moment.
    A young (40ish) black man who is an acquaintance through friends had limited intellectual capacity and some delusional ideology suffered a life of rejection and abandonment with a crackhead mother, violent death of family members, homelessness and frequent imprisonment. Some of the prison was truly unwarranted. He was not a violent but a gentle person although somehow he managed to get into many fights. He said he believed in God but seemed unable to absorb more. He was nice despite all- I know that doesn't mean much. He died recently but I'm not sure how; maybe drugs.
    I'm not writing this to trip anyone up or evilly play on people's heartstrings, and I must believe what the Church says. But I find it terribly hard to think God created this person just to suffer so here on earth (much through no fault of his own) and then for eternity in hell. I know God's Mercy is tempered with his Justice, but  EENS has always been the most difficult for me to digest. In the natural, it is hard to see the justice. I have been told by my priest that it is useless to pray for the souls of non- Catholic deceased as well (EENS). I can understand why people are looking for loopholes around it. I feel terrible about this.

    Here are a few ways to process this.

    1) Had God given him full possession of his faculties, would he have rejected the faith and even become an enemy of it, so that he would have deserved a much worse eternal fate?

    2) One of the dogmatic EENS definitions also states that he degrees of suffering in hell vary.  It's not as if a selfless Jєωιѕн grandmother who gave her life for her children is going to be suffering the exact same fate as mass murderer Joe Stalin.  I believe that there are some people in hell who suffer very little given that their natural virtues may offset some of their natural vices.

    3) Given that it's possible this man you speak of wasn't capable of making true moral decisions, he may even be in a state of natural happiness like Limbo (given the impairment of his faculties).  Had God NOT impaired his faculties, perhaps he would have sinned a great deal more.  I believe that there are some people in Hell who suffer no more than someone might in this life.

    4) God gives EVERYONE what they want.  We see it even in this life.  Some people enjoy going to church and praying, while others prefer to got to raucous debauched parties and find prayer abhorrent.  God will give them what they want.  Their suffering in the afterlife will consist of the fact that what they have chosen doesn't give them true happiness.

    5) the Beatific Vision is not something owed to anyone and is not essential to perfect human happiness.  That is why the infants (and other people without the use of reason) are perfectly happy in Limbo, happier than they could ever be in this life.  So apart from this Beatific Vision, everyone receives everything that they want and seek and ask for.  There was a saint who also asked God why He sent people to Hell.  So God asked her to pick a soul in Hell to release from there.  He took the designated soul and put him in Heaven (minus the Beatific Vision I imagine).  That soul simply couldn't take it (kindof like how some people now hate going to church).  He asked out.  Then the saint asked God to at least put him in Purgatory.  So He did.  Then the soul complained that he didn't like that either, and asked to be returned to Hell.  People go where they WANT to go.

    At the end of the day, God has more love and compassion than we could ever dream of.  So if you are grieved by the loss of a soul, He is that much more grieved (accidentally speaking of course).

    We believe God is love and desires the salvation of all, but there's this thing about free will here, where everyone decides what he wants.

    So this person you speak of, trust that God gave Him every possible mercy and that things were arranged so that he would have the least possible suffering in eternity given his free will.  As I said, born into different circuмstances, he may have openly rejected the faith, become an enemy of it, and been a monumental sinner, whereas in his state of impairment he likely sinned a lot less than he otherwise would have.


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: ‘Accidentally’ in the Church?
    « Reply #11 on: March 11, 2021, 08:26:53 AM »
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  • Does Ladislaus accept this teaching of the Holy Office?
    That private letter has no authority. Do you accept the infallible decree of Pope Siricius? See 
    Pope St. Siricius rejects Baptism of Desire

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: ‘Accidentally’ in the Church?
    « Reply #12 on: March 11, 2021, 08:31:30 AM »
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  • Here is what the Church says about EENS.
     

    Does Ladislaus accept this teaching of the Holy Office?

    Get lost.  You ignore the Church's dogmatic definitions and reduce what "the Church says about EENS" to a docuмent attributed to the Holy Office.

    #1) This is not even authentic Magisterium, as it never appeared in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis, and Canon Law states that to be considered authentic, something must appear in AAS.

    #2) We do not know if this is even authentic.  This was allegedly issued in 1949, but was not published by Cushing until several years later ... AFTER the Cardinal who allegedly issued it had died.  That stinks to no end.  Why did he wait several years to publish it until after the Cardinal here had died?    And even then, the ONLY place it appeared was in the American Ecclesiastical Review, edited by none other than the heretic Cushing (who said:  "No salvation outside the Church?  Nonsense.")  Recall that these are the same scoundrels that would later bring us the glories of Vatican II.  Odds are, given the delay in publication, that this docuмent was at least altered, and, with the Cardinal who allegedly wrote it being dead, he wasn't around to call them out ... since we have nothing official from Rome to actually compare it against.

    #3) Even Msgr. Fenton asserts that this can be interpreted in such a way as to be consistent with the need for explicit faith in order to be saved.

    #4) If you believe this as being what the Church says, then you're a schismatic for rejecting Vatican II, since all of the errors of Vatican II logically derive from the ecclesiology of implicit desire.

    #5) Decrees of the Holy Office are not per se infallible (look up any pre-Vatican II source).

    Odds are high that this docuмent was either altered or is an outright forgery, brought to you by the same scoundrels and infiltrators who would shortly after bring us Vatican II.

    Does this answer your "question"?

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: ‘Accidentally’ in the Church?
    « Reply #13 on: March 11, 2021, 08:32:47 AM »
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  • However, this dogma must be understood in that sense in which the Church herself understands it. For, it was not to private judgments that Our Savior gave for explanation those things that are contained in the deposit of faith, but to the teaching authority of the Church.
    How does the Church Herself understand the dogma; Outside of the Church there is no salvation?

    "Hence, too,that meaning of the sacred dogmas is ever to be maintained which has once been declared by holy mother church, and there must never be any abandonment of this sense under the pretext or in the name of a more profound understanding". - The First Vatican Council
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline RomanTheo

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    Re: ‘Accidentally’ in the Church?
    « Reply #14 on: March 11, 2021, 10:20:18 AM »
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  • #2) We do not know if this is even authentic.  This was allegedly issued in 1949, but was not published by Cushing until several years later ... AFTER the Cardinal who allegedly issued it had died.  That stinks to no end.  Why did he wait several years to publish it until after the Cardinal here had died?   

    Better recheck the dates.  It was published three year later, not seven, and it was signed by Cardinal Marchetti-Selvaggiani and Cardinal Ottaviani, and approved by  Pius XII.    Pius XII and Ottaviani were still alive when Cushing published the letter on order of the Sacred Congregation of the Holy Office. 


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    And even then, the ONLY place it appeared was in the American Ecclesiastical Review, edited by none other than the heretic Cushing (who said:  "No salvation outside the Church?  Nonsense.")  Recall that these are the same scoundrels that would later bring us the glories of Vatican II.  

    It is unclear what you are referring to as being edited by Cushion.  The editor of the American Ecclesiastical Review was Fr. Fenton, a close associated of Cardinal Ottaviani, who signed the Holy Office letter. Fenton and Ottaviani were in the Traditionalist camp at Vatican II, with Fenton serving as Ottaviani's peritus.  



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    #3) Even Msgr. Fenton asserts that this can be interpreted in such a way as to be consistent with the need for explicit faith in order to be saved.

    Explicit faith in the Trinity and Incarnation, not explicit faith in the Church as divinely established by Christ.  That's the question: is it necessary to have explicit knowledge that the Catholic Church was established by Christ and formally enter the Church to obtain salvation.  The answer is certainly no, since knowledge of the Church is not one of the truths that must be explicitly assented to by faith to attain salvation.  


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    #4) If you believe this as being what the Church says, then you're a schismatic for rejecting Vatican II, since all of the errors of Vatican II logically derive from the ecclesiology of implicit desire.

    Implicit desire for what? Elaborate, cite the texts you are referring to, and I will comment.



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    #5) Decrees of the Holy Office are not per se infallible (look up any pre-Vatican II source).

    True, but the teachings they contain nevertheless require the proportionate level of assent, at least that of obsequium religiosum.  The 1949 letter of the Holy Office is perfectly consistent with what you will find in any pre-conciliar manual.


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    Odds are high that this docuмent was either altered or is an outright forgery, brought to you by the same scoundrels and infiltrators who would shortly after bring us Vatican II.

    If the docuмent was altered for a forgery, Cardinal Ottaviani would have certainly notified his friend and future peritus at Vatican II, Fr. Fenton, since, as noted above, he was the editor of the American Ecclesiastical Review that published it.


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    Does this answer your "question"?

    Yes it does, and sad to say, it was exactly the kind of answer I expected.

    Do you also reject the following teaching of Pius XII?

    "In the case of other, more necessary sacraments, when the minister is lacking, he can be supplied through the force of divine mercy, which will forego even external signs in order to bring grace to the heart. To the catechumen who has no one to pour water on his head, to the sinner who can find no one to absolve him, a loving God will accord, out of their desire and love, the grace which makes them His friends and children even without Baptism or actual confession." (Pius XII)