Author Topic: +Abp. Lefebvre and the four bishops - never in schism, never excommunicated  (Read 571 times)

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Offline mcollier

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Starting a new thread from (Russia will defend it’s oil fields). 

Not only was the Archbishop and the other four bishops never in schism (see Michael Davies vs E. Michael Jones debate from earlier thread), they also were never excommunicated (see EC from +Bp. Williamson below):

https://stmarcelinitiative.com/x201cexcommunicationsx201d/

Offline XavierSem

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Very nice. We believe Archbishop Lefebvre will be declared a Saint one day, and we remember Church authorities also, at first, have for e.g. opposed St. Athanasius, St. Jeanne D'Arc (may she pray for France today, after the terrible Notre Dame fire), St. Padre Pio (who venerated Archbishop Lefebvre, and kissed H.G.'s ring with reverence!), before later applauding and even canonizing them. Cardinal Oddi said, "Merci, Monsignor" (Thank You, Monsignor] over Archbishop Lefebvre's tomb. Please also see this and the decree has at any rate now been declared deprived of all juridical effect. It is said that in France in less than 20 years, 50% of Priests will be from Tradition at current rates. Once Church authorities see that Tradition is the Future of the Church, they will praise Archbishop Lefebvre for defending it. https://fsspx.org/en/sspx%E2%80%99s-bishops

"Accusation of schism

As for the accusation of schism, Archbishop Lefebvre always recognized the pope’s authority. Consecrating a bishop without pontifical mandate would be a schismatic act if one pretended to confer not just the fullness of the priesthood but also jurisdiction, a governing power over a particular flock. Only the pope, who has universal jurisdiction over the whole Church, can appoint a pastor to a flock and empower him to govern it. But Archbishop Lefebvre never presumed to confer anything but the full priestly powers of holy orders.

The Dean of the Faculty of Canon Law of the Catholic Institute of Paris, Fr. Patrick Valdrini, confirmed that “it is not the consecration of a bishop that creates a schism; what consummates the schism is to confer upon that bishop an apostolic mission” (Valeurs Actuelles, July 4, 1988 ) [in other words, simply consecrating an auxiliary Bishop, without habitual jurisdiction, is not a schism; only attempting to confer ordinary jurisdiction on the Bishop, which only the Pope can do, and which Archbishop Lefebvre always and clearly explained H.G. was not doing, and could not do, is such]...

Finally, on January 21, 2009, a decree of the Congregation for Bishops, signed by its Prefect, Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, based on the faculties expressly granted by Pope Benedict XVI, declared the decree of July 1, 1988, to be deprived of any juridical effect."

Since the Pope has now granted even Ordinary Jurisdiction to the SSPX Bishops after 2015, as Bishop Fellay said, there is no problem. I wish the SSPX and Resistance would re-unite and work together as that is what Tradition needs. Tradition needs an Army of Priests. All working together under our good Traditional Catholic Bishops. With all Traditional Catholic Bishops united in Faith and Love, together with each other, and preferably with OJ from the Pope. And then the long war for Church Restoration can go on, it may take, who knows, 20,30 or 50 years, but it must be fought like this and won.

Centurio, a Traditional Catholic Blog, has this analysis and prediction on the future of Catholic Tradition in Archbishop Lefebvre's country.

"The interesting result is that by the year 2038, traditional priests will outnumber priests celebrating the new mass ...So in conclusion, if the Roman Catholic faith will be saved from secularism in France, it will be the achievement of the traditional groups of priests celebrating the Traditional Mass such as FSSPX, FSSP and ICRSS." https://centurioweblog.blogspot.com/2014/07/traditional-priests-in-france-until-2050.html?m=1
Do make Acts of Consecration to the Twin Hearts, Spiritual Offerings of the Precious Blood of Jesus in Union with the Holy Mass, like in St. Gertrude's Chaplet, along with Spiritual Communions at least every hour. The Saints say Spiritual Communions are a way to quickly advance to Union with God.


Offline Ladislaus

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Consecrating a bishop without pontifical mandate would be a schismatic act if one pretended to confer not just the fullness of the priesthood but also jurisdiction, a governing power over a particular flock.

False.  Of course I agree that +Lefebvre was never in schism, but for different reasons, those articulated by himself as "Excommunicated by WHOM?"" and "Schismatic from WHAT?" (my spin).  While it doesn't constitute schism per se, it's clearly interpreted by the Church as a "schismatic act" ... and so the penalty of excommunication attached to it ipso facto.

Online Pax Vobis

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Forlorn said:
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Since they (+ABL and the 4 bishops) were the leaders of the SSPX, anyone who continued to follow them(i.e the entire SSPX) would be guilty of schism by association. Would you also tell me that Orthodox Christians aren't schismatic, but only the one Ecumenical Patriarch who committed the act itself waaaaay back in 1054?
No, not the same situation at all.  The Orthodox are schismatic because of their mindset; because they reject certain Catholic truths.  The Orthodox laity are guilty of schism because they also reject these truths.

+ABL's sspx (to be differentiated from +Fellay's current new-sspx) was not in schism because their mindset did not reject any Catholic truth; they just rejected V2 novelties - which any catholic is obligated to do so.  New-rome argued that their act of consecration was a schismatic ACT, but they have never been accused of schism (mindset) because their goal is to "do what the church has always done" and to believe "that which has always been taught".  The laity did not take part in the consecrations and they aren't in schism in any way because Quo Primum and Canon law allow the faithful to receive mass/sacraments from any priest (excommunicated, schismatic, heretic, etc, etc) when there is an emergency situation.

New-rome is the one who is in schism, as Fr Hesse clearly laid out, because their acceptance of V2 novelties is inconsistent with Tradition and the new mass is illicit and immoral, both of which are contrary to the law of Quo Primum.

+Fellay's new-sspx is also dangerously close to schism (if not materially, then spiritually) because in the last few years, they have aligned themselves with new-rome, on the whole and have continually flirted with accepting V2's heresies.

But this has nothing to do with +ABL's organization, his goals, his purpose - which was to continue the Traditions of the Church, which can never be schismatic.

Online Pax Vobis

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Schism means to separate oneself from Communiom with the Church. +ABL and the Bishops willingly got themselves excommuniated by going ahead with the consecrations. 
They separated themselves from new-rome and the V2 hierarchy, who are not the Church proper, but only Church officials.  The Church, the True Bride of Christ, is, as Our Lady of LaSalette said "in eclipse" due to V2 and the new mass, which are themselves schismatic councils and a schismatic mass.  There is no obligation for ANY catholic to accept V2 or the new mass under penalty of sin and thus, their ideals are not truly Apostolic nor Traditional.


Online Pax Vobis

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Online Pax Vobis

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Offline forlorn

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They separated themselves from new-rome and the V2 hierarchy, who are not the Church proper, but only Church officials.  The Church, the True Bride of Christ, is, as Our Lady of LaSalette said "in eclipse" due to V2 and the new mass, which are themselves schismatic councils and a schismatic mass.  There is no obligation for ANY catholic to accept V2 or the new mass under penalty of sin and thus, their ideals are not truly Apostolic nor Traditional.
We're speaking from the perspective of Rome. +ABL severed himself and the SSPX from Rome, which is the Church proper in Xavier's belief. Xavier believes that the Mass and the Council were valid, and that the hierarchy in Rome are valid and the true Church, and therefore he is a schismatic by his own beliefs


Online Pax Vobis

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We're speaking from the perspective of Rome.
Ok, sorry, I misunderstood.  And I don't care about that perspective. 

Offline forlorn

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Ok, sorry, I misunderstood.  And I don't care about that perspective.
Well Xavier does, and yet he completely ignores the rulings of what he considers to be the real hierarchy of the Holy Mother Church, and willingly severs himself from it.

Online Pax Vobis

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Agree.  Xavier's hypocrisy is readily apparent to all but him, because he views canon law based on emotion.


Offline psalter

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Since the Pope has now granted even Ordinary Jurisdiction to the SSPX Bishops after 2015, as Bishop Fellay said, there is no problem. I wish the SSPX and Resistance would re-unite and work together as that is what Tradition needs. Tradition needs an Army of Priests. All working together under our good Traditional Catholic Bishops. With all Traditional Catholic Bishops united in Faith and Love, together with each other, and preferably with OJ from the Pope. And then the long war for Church Restoration can go on, it may take, who knows, 20,30 or 50 years, but it must be fought like this and won.

Does anyone know what H.E. Bishop Williamson's thoughts are on receiving ordinary jurisdiction? What about those Bishops H.E. has consecrated? Do they also receive ordinary jurisdiction? Does anyone know if the Sedevacantist Bishops possess ordinary or supplied jurisdiction?

Offline psalter

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