Author Topic: A serious issue with the R&R position  (Read 3461 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
« Reply #195 on: January 13, 2020, 08:45:11 AM »
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    it is *scandalous*.  But I'm not sure its actually *heretical*
    Byzcat3000, it's written in Modernist language, just like V2.  They skirted the line of heresy, as usual, and (arguably) didn't cross it.  However, the document is still GRAVELY wrong and GRAVELY sinful.  What does it matter if one goes to hell as a heretic or simply as a catholic in mortal sin?  The practical result is the same - the loss of Faith, the increase of immorality and the greater offense to God's laws (all of which are the Modernist's goals, because they are satan's henchmen, so they hate all things good - the Church, the faithful and God Himself).  Let's not get lost in the theological trees and miss the forest of evil this will lead to.

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #196 on: January 13, 2020, 10:19:07 AM »
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  • Thank you.  Just to make myself clear, I don't really care about the thumbs ... either way.  I am just astonished that anyone here would defend AL, and I would like an explanation to go along with the downthumb.  WHY exactly is AL not heretical?  We even had a Novus Ordo group of Cardinals say as much ... although carefully avoiding the dreaded H word.
    If someone pertinaciously adheres to what is contained in this document, knowing full well that it contradicts authentic Catholic teaching (frankly it’s hard for me to believe that even a half witted person couldn’t) that person is simply NOT a Catholic. They do not profess the True Faith and are not a member of the Mystical Body of Christ.

    Anyone who gave you a thumbs down is suspect.


    Offline Bellator Dei

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #197 on: January 13, 2020, 01:38:20 PM »
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  • The Church's Magisterium are all those things contained in Scripture and tradition and are proposed by the Church (The Authority) as matters to be believed. These things we learn because they are taught to us either by her solemn judgement (ex cathedra definitions / Extraordinary Magisterium), the day to day teachings of her Catholic hierarchy, including her Catholic clergy, nuns, etc. (Ordinary Magisterium), or are those things the Church has taught always and everywhere (Universal Magisterium).

    Simple, no? If the pope or hierarchy teach something *not* found in Scripture and tradition, then it is not a magisterial teaching, that is, it is not a teaching contained in the Church's magisterium and may contain error. As such, because said teaching can contain error, it  could  be harmful to the faithful.

    I was under the assumption that the Magisterium is the "teaching authority" of the Church.  All those things contained in Scripture and tradition are the sacred Deposit of Faith - in which the Magisterium has divine authority to teach, guard, and defend.

    As far as I know, the Popes don't refer to any "levels" of authority "within" the Magisterium (per Pax's sources).    

    This is the way I understand it:

    The Magisterium is AUTHENTIC and it is UNIVERSAL
    The Magisterium can be utilized in an EXTRAORDINARY manner or in an ORDINARY manner
    The Magisterium is infallible and unable to be mistaken

    That's all there is to it...per the Popes.  

    I can't really tell if we're in agreement or not...  
    Please pray for all of the holy souls in purgatory.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #198 on: January 13, 2020, 02:38:32 PM »
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    The Magisterium is AUTHENTIC and it is UNIVERSAL
    The Magisterium can be utilized in an EXTRAORDINARY manner or in an ORDINARY manner
    The Magisterium is infallible and unable to be mistaken
    Ok, that is the strict definition which used to be used pre-1850s.  Using this criteria then, an encyclical like "Deus Caritas Est" from +Benedict would NOT be part of the magisterium because 1) he didn't teach anything authoritatively using his Apostolic authority, nor did he bind anyone to believe anything.  All he did was give a personal, theological opinion.
    .
    Since Vatican 1 defined infallibility, there has been a growing trend among theologians to expand the use of the term 'magisterium' to include all things coming forth from rome.  This new understanding means that such personal, theological opinions of the pope are now part of the "ordinary" magisterium, but aren't infallible, just fallible opinions.
    .
    It's a highly evolving area of theology because it has never been adequately explained.  The dawn of the defining of infallibilty at V1, only increased the questions as to what and when is the ordinary magisterium infallible.  Thus, there are all manner of explanations and terms used since then.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #199 on: January 13, 2020, 07:53:07 PM »
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  • Byzcat3000, it's written in Modernist language, just like V2.  They skirted the line of heresy, as usual, and (arguably) didn't cross it.  However, the document is still GRAVELY wrong and GRAVELY sinful.  What does it matter if one goes to hell as a heretic or simply as a catholic in mortal sin?  The practical result is the same - the loss of Faith, the increase of immorality and the greater offense to God's laws (all of which are the Modernist's goals, because they are satan's henchmen, so they hate all things good - the Church, the faithful and God Himself).  Let's not get lost in the theological trees and miss the forest of evil this will lead to.
    I don't accept it, and I agree its really dangerous, but my issue is its just another instance where Sedevacantists need to prove their point.  If it can't even be proven that AL is *definitely* material *heresy* (leaving aside the grave sinfulness which I agree with), then it can't be used to prove that Francis "must be a heretic and must not be the Pope."  Or such things.  Because other scandalous things that aren't actually heresy (or schism or apostasy) can be mortal sins but not necessarily severing a man from the Church outright.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #200 on: January 14, 2020, 05:06:40 AM »
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  • I was under the assumption that the Magisterium is the "teaching authority" of the Church.  All those things contained in Scripture and tradition are the sacred Deposit of Faith - in which the Magisterium has divine authority to teach, guard, and defend.

    As far as I know, the Popes don't refer to any "levels" of authority "within" the Magisterium (per Pax's sources).    

    This is the way I understand it:

    The Magisterium is AUTHENTIC and it is UNIVERSAL
    The Magisterium can be utilized in an EXTRAORDINARY manner or in an ORDINARY manner
    The Magisterium is infallible and unable to be mistaken

    That's all there is to it...per the Popes.  

    I can't really tell if we're in agreement or not...  
    I think we are mostly, perhaps fully in agreement. Dissect this please.....

    I was trying to think of examples, and the best example I can think of is simply to take V1, which was headed by Pope Pius IX, and compare that with Tuas Libenter, which was authored by the same pope 7 years earlier. I noted the time span to show, that which the pope decreed at V1, is what the Church always believed. These quotes are in regards to all those things Catholics are bound to believe.......

    Tuas Libenter:
    "Even when it is only a question of the submission owed to divine faith, this cannot be limited merely to points defined by the express decrees of the Ecumenical Councils, or of the Roman Pontiffs and of this Apostolic See; this submission must also be extended to all that has been handed down as divinely revealed by the ordinary teaching authority of the entire Church spread over the whole world, and which, for this reason, Catholic theologians, with a universal and constant consent, regard as being of the faith".

    V1 tells us: "Wherefore, by divine and catholic faith all those things are to be believed which are contained in the word of God as found in scripture and tradition, and which are proposed by the church as matters to be believed as divinely revealed, whether by her solemn judgment or in her ordinary and universal magisterium".

    The two teachings are both saying the exact same thing. V1 tells us we are to believe all those things contained in her magisterium, TL tells us we are to believe "all that has been handed down..." ergo, all those things in the magisterium = "all that has been handed down..."  "All those things handed down" are all those things that the Church has always taught.

    This agrees with your other quotes on the magisterium being always infallible and explains why. This also explains why saying "the magisterium has gone off the rails" is altogether wrong, perhaps blasphemous.

    So when we say "the magisterium teaches X", or "X is a teaching of the magisterium", what we are talking about, are teachings that the Church has always taught, i.e. "all that has been handed down..."


    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man." - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #201 on: January 14, 2020, 05:45:22 AM »
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  • I don't accept it, and I agree its really dangerous, but my issue is its just another instance where Sedevacantists need to prove their point.  If it can't even be proven that AL is *definitely* material *heresy* (leaving aside the grave sinfulness which I agree with), then it can't be used to prove that Francis "must be a heretic and must not be the Pope."  Or such things.  Because other scandalous things that aren't actually heresy (or schism or apostasy) can be mortal sins but not necessarily severing a man from the Church outright.

    Have you read the link I posted from the Novus Ordo group that clearly details all of Francis' heresies?  It details the accusation with many citations of Catholic dogma.
    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/prominent-clergy-scholars-accuse-pope-francis-of-heresy-in-open-letter
    https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5983408-Open-Letter-to-the-Bishops-of-the-Catholic.html

    This has even more credibility since it comes from, of all places, a Novus Ordo group of theologians (and others) ... and not from the "sedevacantists".

    You just keep saying that it's not heresy while admittedly not knowing what Francis actually wrote or said.  If Francis is not a heretic, then there never has been a heretic in the history of the Church.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #202 on: January 14, 2020, 12:49:54 PM »
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  • Have you read the link I posted from the Novus Ordo group that clearly details all of Francis' heresies?  It details the accusation with many citations of Catholic dogma.
    https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/prominent-clergy-scholars-accuse-pope-francis-of-heresy-in-open-letter
    https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5983408-Open-Letter-to-the-Bishops-of-the-Catholic.html

    This has even more credibility since it comes from, of all places, a Novus Ordo group of theologians (and others) ... and not from the "sedevacantists".

    You just keep saying that it's not heresy while admittedly not knowing what Francis actually wrote or said.  If Francis is not a heretic, then there never has been a heretic in the history of the Church.
    No I haven't yet, but I was answering the question of "why it matters" whether its technically heresy or not.


    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #203 on: January 14, 2020, 01:53:59 PM »
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  • Byzcat, you're the only one saying it's not heresy, yet you've not read either the "dubia" letter or the critique provided by Ladislaus.  Before you defend something, you should know its contents.

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #204 on: January 14, 2020, 01:55:56 PM »
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  • Byzcat, you're the only one saying it's not heresy, yet you've not read either the "dubia" letter or the critique provided by Ladislaus.  Before you defend something, you should know its contents.
    I didn't say it wasn't heresy.  I was questioning whether it was heresy.  That said I'll read those before I reply again.


     

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