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Author Topic: A serious issue with the R&R position  (Read 22492 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
« Reply #165 on: January 10, 2020, 01:55:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 10, 2020, 01:04:29 PM
    Stubborn, my point is that yes, it could happen that a bunch of crazy Cardinals would "depose" a good, holy pope (or attempt to depose him, since it wouldn't be morally or canonically valid).  One could argue that similar things have happened in the past.  It's impossible to have the historically factual situation where there were 3 popes, without 2 of them having been "deposed" in some manner.
    I agree that's exactly the risk of what would happen, but for whatever reason Lad insists Divine Providence will prevent that from happening - makes me wonder why God's Providence didn't prevent the pope from being a heretic in the first place. 

    But I believe it is because there is no divine guarantee that a good pope would not be deposed, that such a council never has nor ever will happen. The only way to justify such a council at all, is born from sheer desperation to depose a pope no matter what. The idea rings of our current political situation with the democrat crooks trying to impeach the president. Two totally different things I know, but the same idea applies. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #166 on: January 10, 2020, 02:08:59 PM »
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    The only way to justify such a council at all, is born from sheer desperation to depose a pope no matter what.
    The hundreds of theologians who have debated this issue for centuries were not doing so out of "desperation", but were applying principles of canon law and church govt to reality.  You act like the deposition of a heretical pope is a new idea.  ??  It's been around for 500+ years.
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    Offline Clemens Maria

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #167 on: January 10, 2020, 02:12:45 PM »
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    • XavierSem, if you actually read what sedes are saying about the crisis, it isn't one or 2 points of doctrine on which we traditionalists disagree with the Conciliar Church (Ladislaus just explained this earlier today in this thread).  The problem is that the Conciliar Church is a new religion.  A new foundation (Lumen Gentium), new orders (1968), new Mass (1969) as well as the other sacraments, new doctrines, new Divine Liturgy, new laws (1983), etc.  And JP2 characterized the result (silent apostasy) and P6 as well (smoke entered the Church).  If you are not resisting, you are not Catholic, period.  And if you are resisting, it should be clear that the level of resistance necessary precludes any notion that the Conciliar hierarchy is the hierarchy of the Catholic Church.  If there was just a disagreement over a couple of points of doctrine, there would be no traditional Catholics vs. conservative Catholics vs liberal Catholics.  We'd all just be Catholics.  You can't expect to convert sedes over to Conciliarism based on some perceived technical difficulties in the theology.  Why don't you spend some time trying to prove that George Bergoglio isn't a heretic?  Where's your conviction?
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #168 on: January 10, 2020, 02:12:49 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 10, 2020, 02:08:59 PM
    The hundreds of theologians who have debated this issue for centuries were not doing so out of "desperation", but were applying principles of canon law and church govt to reality.  You act like the deposition of a heretical pope is a new idea.  ??  It's been around for 500+ years.
    I suppose I can't prove this, but I think they had in mind a situation where the Pope is like "I'm not Catholic anymore, I'm a Lutheran."  And then the Cardinals are just like "OK, you've automatically lost his office, let's elect something else.  
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #169 on: January 10, 2020, 02:16:15 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 10, 2020, 02:08:59 PM
    The hundreds of theologians who have debated this issue for centuries were not doing so out of "desperation", but were applying principles of canon law and church govt to reality.  You act like the deposition of a heretical pope is a new idea.  ??  It's been around for 500+ years.
    It's probably been around longer than that, but there's a reason it's never been done.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #170 on: January 10, 2020, 03:06:40 PM »
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    It's probably been around longer than that, but there's a reason it's never been done.
    Uhh, because no pope until our days has approached any serious level of heresy. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #171 on: January 10, 2020, 03:12:34 PM »
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    I suppose I can't prove this, but I think they had in mind a situation where the Pope is like "I'm not Catholic anymore, I'm a Lutheran."  And then the Cardinals are just like "OK, you've automatically lost his office, let's elect something else.  
    Sure, that would be an obvious case where no rebukes are required.  It's a simple formal notice that the pope has "left the building".  It's even in canon law that one loses his office when he indirectly leaves the Faith.
    .
    What St Bellarmine and others (including the current Cardinal Burke et al) are speaking of, is the difficult, weasel heretic who won't admit he hates doctrine.  This is one who is a "wolf in sheep's clothing" whom St Paul says must be rebuked twice and then anathematized if they hold to their error.
    .
    There's no need for a rebuke process or for the Cardinals to debate the status of a pope who has already left the Faith.  Makes no sense.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #172 on: January 10, 2020, 03:22:41 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 10, 2020, 03:12:34 PM
    Sure, that would be an obvious case where no rebukes are required.  It's a simple formal notice that the pope has "left the building".  It's even in canon law that one loses his office when he indirectly leaves the Faith.
    .
    What St Bellarmine and others (including the current Cardinal Burke et al) are speaking of, is the difficult, weasel heretic who won't admit he hates doctrine.  This is one who is a "wolf in sheep's clothing" whom St Paul says must be rebuked twice and then anathematized if they hold to their error.
    .
    There's no need for a rebuke process or for the Cardinals to debate the status of a pope who has already left the Faith.  Makes no sense.
    I meant to finish my thought, but didn't.  I see your point.  I'd agree that could happen to.  I could see them imaginging that.  But even there, the idea is that the Cardinals will rebuke the heretic pope.  I don't think Bellarmine could've imagined all the cardinals going along with him, and some random laypeople deciding on their own authority that there's no see.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #173 on: January 10, 2020, 03:35:36 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on January 10, 2020, 03:22:41 PM
    I don't think Bellarmine could've imagined all the cardinals going along with him, and some random laypeople deciding on their own authority that there's no see.

    There's a LOT of stuff going on today that Bellarmine could never have imagined in his worst nightmares.

    Just imagine for a minute taking a saint like him, or St. Pius X, or St. John Vianney, or St. Alphonsus, or any great saint, transporting him through time, and plopping him down inside the celebration of a Novus Ordo clown Mass.  Then tell them it's a Catholic Mass.  Could you even begin to imagine their reaction to that?  Would they recognize this Conciliar establishment of today as being the Catholic Church?  You don't need to be a theologian with two or three doctorates to recognize that this is a new religion and not the Catholic Church.  And God did that by design.  What God has hidden from the wise, He reveals to the simple.  God did not allow one or two minor pernicious heresies to be imposed on the faithful by stealth.  No, He made it clear that what we have here is something completely different from the Catholic Church.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #174 on: January 10, 2020, 03:46:59 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on January 10, 2020, 03:06:40 PM
    Uhh, because no pope until our days has approached any serious level of heresy.
    According to Fr. Hesse, and also +ABL, there have been a number of heretical popes throughout the history of the Church. As for the gravity of heresy I don't know - but a heretical pope is a heretical pope - no?   
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #175 on: January 10, 2020, 04:01:09 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 10, 2020, 01:13:12 PM
    There's no doubt but that Amoris Laetitia is heretical.

    I got a downthumb from someone who believes that it's OK for people to divorce, remarry, and commit adultery.  Reveal yourself, coward.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #176 on: January 10, 2020, 04:07:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 10, 2020, 04:01:09 PM
    I got a downthumb from someone who believes that it's OK for people to divorce, remarry, and commit adultery.  Reveal yourself, coward.
    Since I know I questioned you on this, I want to make clear that it wasn't me. 

    And I literally just now gave that post an upthumb.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #177 on: January 10, 2020, 04:10:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on January 10, 2020, 04:07:06 PM
    Since I know I questioned you on this, I want to make clear that it wasn't me.

    And I literally just now gave that post an upthumb.

    Thank you.  Just to make myself clear, I don't really care about the thumbs ... either way.  I am just astonished that anyone here would defend AL, and I would like an explanation to go along with the downthumb.  WHY exactly is AL not heretical?  We even had a Novus Ordo group of Cardinals say as much ... although carefully avoiding the dreaded H word.
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #178 on: January 10, 2020, 04:15:48 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on January 10, 2020, 04:10:27 PM
    Thank you.  Just to make myself clear, I don't really care about the thumbs ... either way.  I am just astonished that anyone here would defend AL, and I would like an explanation to go along with the downthumb.  WHY exactly is AL not heretical?  We even had a Novus Ordo group of Cardinals say as much ... although carefully avoiding the dreaded H word.
    I question whether its heretical because I'm not sure what dogma it denies.  I acknowledge I could be missing something.  I think its *scandalous* to allow people who are objectively engaging in grave matter activity.  Is it *possible* that someone, due to sufficient knowledge and information, could lack the culpability needed for the sin to be subjectively mortal?  I don't know, I don't know what the pre Vatican II theologians said about that, it seems like it theoretically could be possible but kind of unlikely.  And it seems scandalous to start a precedent of "because there MIGHT be some factor that only God knows that makes the soul less culpable than we think, therefore we are going to start giving them communion."

    As a recent convert from Protestantism, I know there's a ton of confusion among people.  Plenty of Protestants believe that divorce and remarriage is allowed in certain cases (usually the "innocent party" in the case of an adultery.)  And also I know a lot of them don't know whether an illicit "second marriage" is in fact invalid.

    Is it HERETICAL to speculate that perhaps some of those people who recently convert out of such circuмstances might not be fully culpable right away, especially in cases of bad catechesis?

    To be clear I disagree with AL because I think its absolutely scandalous to lay down this kind of precedent, but I'm not sure it actually denies a dogma or is heretical.  

    Also I know you specifically know there are something like 11 different theological notes.  Are we sure heresy is the right one here?

    Any thoughts?
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: A serious issue with the R&R position
    « Reply #179 on: January 10, 2020, 04:22:19 PM »
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    WHY exactly is AL not heretical?  We even had a Novus Ordo group of Cardinals say as much ... 
    I think we’d all be surprised at the lack of orthodoxy or lack of reading comprehension of most Catholics, including those on this site.  The dumbing down of the western world almost surpasses the liberalization of Catholicity. 
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