Author Topic: A question for SJB and others, also. (Read 3325 times)

bowler · « **Reply #45 on:** October 09, 2013, 06:36:01 PM »

Quote from: Nishant

You're impossible, Bowler, you really are.

You left off Hobbledehoy's thread. In case you read that thread (below), even only the last pages, you will see three posters (PereJoseph, SJB, Ambrose) beside myself affirming that explicit belief in the Trinity and Incarnation is necessary by means for salvation.

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=27386&min=155&num=5

I quoted St. Alphonsus above, by the way. He understands what you do not. That in an act of perfect love of God, (yes, one must know explicitly that God is a Trinity in the Christian dispensation), the desire for baptism is necessarily implicit, because he who loves God truly and above all things desires the whole (to obey all the commands) and therefore desires every part of that whole (to obey every specific command, even those he is unaware of, like the command to be baptized). The same is plain in Sacred Scripture, where Christ promises to all who believe in and love Him, without distinguishing catechumen and penitent, that the indwelling of the Holy Trinity in that soul will be the result, which means he will be in the state of grace and inside the Church. The same for baptism of blood, where Christ promises and Tradition understands that he who desires to die for confessing Christ, desires to obey Christ truly and therefore desires baptism and is saved.

That does not answer my question. Do you restrict your belief to that teaching of St. Thomas? I know that Ambrose does not, and Hobbledehoy does not either, so what's it matter if they know the teaching?

SJB · « **Reply #46 on:** October 09, 2013, 08:14:42 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: Nishant
You're impossible, Bowler, you really are.

You left off Hobbledehoy's thread. In case you read that thread (below), even only the last pages, you will see three posters (PereJoseph, SJB, Ambrose) beside myself affirming that explicit belief in the Trinity and Incarnation is necessary by means for salvation.

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=27386&min=155&num=5

I quoted St. Alphonsus above, by the way. He understands what you do not. That in an act of perfect love of God, (yes, one must know explicitly that God is a Trinity in the Christian dispensation), the desire for baptism is necessarily implicit, because he who loves God truly and above all things desires the whole (to obey all the commands) and therefore desires every part of that whole (to obey every specific command, even those he is unaware of, like the command to be baptized). The same is plain in Sacred Scripture, where Christ promises to all who believe in and love Him, without distinguishing catechumen and penitent, that the indwelling of the Holy Trinity in that soul will be the result, which means he will be in the state of grace and inside the Church. The same for baptism of blood, where Christ promises and Tradition understands that he who desires to die for confessing Christ, desires to obey Christ truly and therefore desires baptism and is saved.

That does not answer my question. Do you restrict your belief to that teaching of St. Thomas? I know that Ambrose does not, and Hobbledehoy does not either, so what's it matter if they know the teaching?

I think you're on the ropes, bowler. Now you're talking about "restricting your beliefs" to St. Thomas when you don't follow St. Thomas.

bowler · « **Reply #47 on:** October 09, 2013, 08:34:21 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: Nishant
You're impossible, Bowler, you really are.

You left off Hobbledehoy's thread. In case you read that thread (below), even only the last pages, you will see three posters (PereJoseph, SJB, Ambrose) beside myself affirming that explicit belief in the Trinity and Incarnation is necessary by means for salvation.

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=27386&min=155&num=5

I quoted St. Alphonsus above, by the way. He understands what you do not. That in an act of perfect love of God, (yes, one must know explicitly that God is a Trinity in the Christian dispensation), the desire for baptism is necessarily implicit, because he who loves God truly and above all things desires the whole (to obey all the commands) and therefore desires every part of that whole (to obey every specific command, even those he is unaware of, like the command to be baptized). The same is plain in Sacred Scripture, where Christ promises to all who believe in and love Him, without distinguishing catechumen and penitent, that the indwelling of the Holy Trinity in that soul will be the result, which means he will be in the state of grace and inside the Church. The same for baptism of blood, where Christ promises and Tradition understands that he who desires to die for confessing Christ, desires to obey Christ truly and therefore desires baptism and is saved.

That does not answer my question. Do you restrict your belief to that teaching of St. Thomas? I know that Ambrose does not, and Hobbledehoy does not either, so what's it matter if they know the teaching?

I think you're on the ropes, bowler. Now you're talking about "restricting ones beliefs" to St. Thomas when you don't follow St. Thomas.

Neither do you, for if you did, I would respect your position.

bowler · « **Reply #48 on:** October 10, 2013, 04:49:34 AM »

Quote from: Nishant

St. Alphonsus in commenting on Trent said,
Quote
"Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts"

It is the underlined portion that your question takes no account of, Jehanne.

This is clearly seen also in Trent itself where desire is used for each and every one of these sacraments, baptism, penance, Eucharist.

It is this that those who do not believe in baptism of desire fail to understand. When a man, under the activity of actual grace and in response to it, truly begins to love God above all things, by that very fact he wills to do all that God has commanded, and that very moment he is translated to sanctifying grace. If he truly loves God, even though he be ignorant of some obligation, when that obligation is made known to him, he will be the first to satisfy it, whether it be professing some article of faith, or confessing some specific fault.

In addition to a truly universal will to observe all the divine precents, explicit faith in the primary articles of faith is necessary by a necessity of means to have supernatural faith, without which supernatural charity is impossible.

That does not answer Jehanne's question at all.

Quote from: Jehanne

I think that this one deserves its own thread:

Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Scheeben
III. Infidels, to whom the faith was never preached, are not left without sufficient grace to secure the salvation of their souls.

Is it possible that we could lead such souls into mortal sin by preaching the Gospel to them?

SJB · « **Reply #49 on:** October 10, 2013, 06:26:21 AM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: bowler
Quote from: Nishant
You're impossible, Bowler, you really are.

You left off Hobbledehoy's thread. In case you read that thread (below), even only the last pages, you will see three posters (PereJoseph, SJB, Ambrose) beside myself affirming that explicit belief in the Trinity and Incarnation is necessary by means for salvation.

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=27386&min=155&num=5

I quoted St. Alphonsus above, by the way. He understands what you do not. That in an act of perfect love of God, (yes, one must know explicitly that God is a Trinity in the Christian dispensation), the desire for baptism is necessarily implicit, because he who loves God truly and above all things desires the whole (to obey all the commands) and therefore desires every part of that whole (to obey every specific command, even those he is unaware of, like the command to be baptized). The same is plain in Sacred Scripture, where Christ promises to all who believe in and love Him, without distinguishing catechumen and penitent, that the indwelling of the Holy Trinity in that soul will be the result, which means he will be in the state of grace and inside the Church. The same for baptism of blood, where Christ promises and Tradition understands that he who desires to die for confessing Christ, desires to obey Christ truly and therefore desires baptism and is saved.

That does not answer my question. Do you restrict your belief to that teaching of St. Thomas? I know that Ambrose does not, and Hobbledehoy does not either, so what's it matter if they know the teaching?

I think you're on the ropes, bowler. Now you're talking about "restricting ones beliefs" to St. Thomas when you don't follow St. Thomas.

Neither do you, for if you did, I would respect your position.

I do follow St. Thomas, and you just admitted you do not. You only follow yourself bowler, like a true liberal Catholic as described in the book, Liberalism is a Sin.

bowler · « **Reply #50 on:** October 10, 2013, 08:45:37 AM »

Quote from: SJB

I do follow St. Thomas, and you just admitted you do not. You only follow yourself bowler, like a true liberal Catholic as described in the book, Liberalism is a Sin.

This thread is not about you and I. Take your discussion to another thread.

The difference between you and I is that I don’t play games with my head. You say you follow St. Thomas, yet you won’t say that you restrict your BOD belief to St. Thomas’s teaching. You are just playing games with yourself, for you say you believe St. Thomas, but yet you also reject St. Thomas in your belief that one can be saved although they have no belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation. If I am wrong in my accessment then go to the thread that I made specifically asking the question that if you restrict your BOD belief to St. Thomas’s teaching and reject the more liberal teaching of Garrigou-Lagrange

Your response is analogous to me saying that I follow St. Thomas, and I also believe the person that is enlightened by God about the Trinity and the Incarnation would also be enlightened that he needs to be baptized. I could say that, but I don't play games with myself.

SJB · « **Reply #51 on:** October 10, 2013, 12:49:23 PM »

Quote from: bowler

... in your belief that one can be saved although they have no belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation.

Your are either blind or dishonest. I've never said this ... here nor anywhere else. I've said the opposite, and many times.

Do you want to "win" so bad that you're willing to lie about what others believe to "make your point?"

SJB · « **Reply #52 on:** October 10, 2013, 12:53:26 PM »

Quote from: bowler

This thread is not about you and I. Take your discussion to another thread.

I'll make my point anywhere I choose. You are hiding what you really believe, that explicit desire isn't sufficient even for Catechumens.