Author Topic: A question for SJB and others, also. (Read 3999 times)

SJB · « **Reply #30 on:** October 08, 2013, 07:37:15 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: Matto
The Church infallibly condemned those who believe that baptism is not necessary for salvation. If you believe in BOD you believe that baptism is not necessary for salvation, therefore if you believe in BOD you are infallibly condemned by the Church. Of course the Cushingites say that those who believe in the Church's infallible teaching are the heretics.

The Church infallibly teaches that the sacraments are necessary for salvation. If you believe in BOD you believe that the sacraments are not necessary for salvation, therefore you deny this dogma. Of course the Cushingites say that those that believe in this dogma are the heretics.

Serious question: If BOD is not Church teaching and is condemned as you say, then what of Pope Pius XII (and his teaching on invincible ignorance)? Is he also a anti-pope? If not, why not?

Actually, it goes back to Pius IX.

2Vermont · « **Reply #31 on:** October 08, 2013, 07:38:15 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: 2Vermont
Quote from: Matto
The Church infallibly condemned those who believe that baptism is not necessary for salvation. If you believe in BOD you believe that baptism is not necessary for salvation, therefore if you believe in BOD you are infallibly condemned by the Church. Of course the Cushingites say that those who believe in the Church's infallible teaching are the heretics.

The Church infallibly teaches that the sacraments are necessary for salvation. If you believe in BOD you believe that the sacraments are not necessary for salvation, therefore you deny this dogma. Of course the Cushingites say that those that believe in this dogma are the heretics.

Serious question: If BOD is not Church teaching and is condemned as you say, then what of Pope Pius XII (and his teaching on invincible ignorance)? Is he also a anti-pope? If not, why not?

Actually, it goes back to Pius IX.

ooops. I had a feeling I had the wrong pope. My bad.

bowler · « **Reply #32 on:** October 09, 2013, 10:35:08 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Matto
The Church infallibly condemned those who believe that baptism is not necessary for salvation. If you believe in BOD you believe that baptism is not necessary for salvation, therefore if you believe in BOD you are infallibly condemned by the Church. Of course the Cushingites say that those who believe in the Church's infallible teaching are the heretics.

The Church infallibly teaches that the sacraments are necessary for salvation. If you believe in BOD you believe that the sacraments are not necessary for salvation, therefore you deny this dogma. Of course the Cushingites say that those that believe in this dogma are the heretics.

That is the view of a simpleton.

"The simpleton" has all the dogmas on EENS and baptism and John 3:5 clearly on his "simpleton" side.

While you (in your belief that one can be saved even if they don't have the sacrament or any sacrament, nor desire to be a Catholic, nor belief in the Trinity and Christ) have ALL the Fathers, Doctors, Saints , Athansian Creed, council of Trent .... against you. That's pretty audacious.

bowler · « **Reply #33 on:** October 09, 2013, 10:41:51 AM »

These BOD threads always go the same route, I good question, a subject, is started, then the BODers change it to what little they know, that they parrot.

This is the tread subject, if you don't have the wherewithal to discuss the matter then stay out, and let another write for you.

Quote from: Jehanne

I think that this one deserves its own thread:

Quote from: Jehanne
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Scheeben
III. Infidels, to whom the faith was never preached, are not left without sufficient grace to secure the salvation of their souls.

Is it possible that we could lead such souls into mortal sin by preaching the Gospel to them?

SJB · « **Reply #34 on:** October 09, 2013, 12:58:10 PM »

This has already been addressed "bowler." Best you stay in the alley.

Matto · « **Reply #35 on:** October 09, 2013, 01:31:49 PM »

Quote from: SJB

That is the view of a simpleton.

You say that because you deny both those dogmas, although you might lie to yourself and say you don't deny them when you really do.

SJB · « **Reply #36 on:** October 09, 2013, 02:06:47 PM »

Quote from: Matto

Quote from: SJB
That is the view of a simpleton.

You say that because you deny both those dogmas, although you might lie to yourself and say you don't deny them when you really do.

No, you're just seeing contradictions where there are none.

Matto · « **Reply #37 on:** October 09, 2013, 02:09:53 PM »

As you said my argument is that of a simpleton, your argument is that of a liar.

SJB · « **Reply #38 on:** October 09, 2013, 02:49:36 PM »

Quote from: Matto

As you said my argument is that of a simpleton, your argument is that of a liar.

I really don't care what you think, Matto. You are a simpleton and in way over your head here.

Matto · « **Reply #39 on:** October 09, 2013, 03:46:04 PM »

We both have many posts on this forum but we have never interacted before. As your introduction to me you insult my intelligence, refuse to answer any of my arguments and then lie to me. Obviously, I am not looking forward to our future interactions.

I am not fazed by your insults. They only lower your own reputation in my eyes and in the eyes of those who see your posts.

Nishant · « **Reply #40 on:** October 09, 2013, 03:47:42 PM »

St. Alphonsus in commenting on Trent said,

Quote

"Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts"

It is the underlined portion that your question takes no account of, Jehanne.

This is clearly seen also in Trent itself where desire is used for each and every one of these sacraments, baptism, penance, Eucharist.

It is this that those who do not believe in baptism of desire fail to understand. When a man, under the activity of actual grace and in response to it, truly begins to love God above all things, by that very fact he wills to do all that God has commanded, and that very moment he is translated to sanctifying grace. If he truly loves God, even though he be ignorant of some obligation, when that obligation is made known to him, he will be the first to satisfy it, whether it be professing some article of faith, or confessing some specific fault.

In addition to a truly universal will to observe all the divine precents, explicit faith in the primary articles of faith is necessary by a necessity of means to have supernatural faith, without which supernatural charity is impossible.

SJB · « **Reply #41 on:** October 09, 2013, 04:19:21 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Matto
The Church infallibly condemned those who believe that baptism is not necessary for salvation. If you believe in BOD you believe that baptism is not necessary for salvation, therefore if you believe in BOD you are infallibly condemned by the Church. Of course the Cushingites say that those who believe in the Church's infallible teaching are the heretics.

The Church infallibly teaches that the sacraments are necessary for salvation. If you believe in BOD you believe that the sacraments are not necessary for salvation, therefore you deny this dogma. Of course the Cushingites say that those that believe in this dogma are the heretics.

That is the view of a simpleton.

Okay Matto, the problem is that you accuse those who believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation of not believing the very thing they believe. It's a ridiculous and stupid argument, I don't know how to put it any differently. I feel sorry for you because you've bought into some bad arguments and now speak of them as if they are self-evident.

bowler · « **Reply #42 on:** October 09, 2013, 05:05:24 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Matto
The Church infallibly condemned those who believe that baptism is not necessary for salvation. If you believe in BOD you believe that baptism is not necessary for salvation, therefore if you believe in BOD you are infallibly condemned by the Church. Of course the Cushingites say that those who believe in the Church's infallible teaching are the heretics.

The Church infallibly teaches that the sacraments are necessary for salvation. If you believe in BOD you believe that the sacraments are not necessary for salvation, therefore you deny this dogma. Of course the Cushingites say that those that believe in this dogma are the heretics.

That is the view of a simpleton.

Okay Matto, the problem is that you accuse those who believe that Baptism is necessary for salvation of not believing the very thing they believe. It's a ridiculous and stupid argument, I don't know how to put it any differently. I feel sorry for you because you've bought into some bad arguments and now speak of them as if they are self-evident.

The truth is that you don't believe that the sacraments are necessary, as a matter of fact you don't believe that an explicit desire to be baptized is even necessary, so just by that you deny the very quote in Trent (Trent, Session VI Decree on Justification, Chapter IV) that you use to debate with Matto. As a matter of fact you even believe that people who have no belief in Christ and the Trinity can be saved. Matto is close to the truth, you are on another planet. Yet you don't see that.

Not one Father, Saint, Doctor, nor the Council of Trent, the Catechism of Trent, nor any catechism prior to the 20th century taught what you believe.
Yet you criticize Matto?

bowler · « **Reply #43 on:** October 09, 2013, 05:12:25 PM »

Quote from: Nishant

St. Alphonsus in commenting on Trent said,
Quote
"Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts"

It is the underlined portion that your question takes no account of, Jehanne.

This is clearly seen also in Trent itself where desire is used for each and every one of these sacraments, baptism, penance, Eucharist.

It is this that those who do not believe in baptism of desire fail to understand. When a man, under the activity of actual grace and in response to it, truly begins to love God above all things, by that very fact he wills to do all that God has commanded, and that very moment he is translated to sanctifying grace. If he truly loves God, even though he be ignorant of some obligation, when that obligation is made known to him, he will be the first to satisfy it, whether it be professing some article of faith, or confessing some specific fault.

In addition to a truly universal will to observe all the divine precents, explicit faith in the primary articles of faith is necessary by a necessity of means to have supernatural faith, without which supernatural charity is impossible.

I wonder how many BODers understand what you just wrote? I doubt any do. Do you now limit your belief in BOD to St. Thomas's teaching?

Anyhow, like I said now many times, while you were away:

Quote from: bowler

Can any BODer on CI see that there is not much difference between the people who follow St. Augustine, which you detractingly call Feeneyites, and the teaching of St. Thomas?

St. Thomas says "
God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, or would send some preacher of the faith to him

They "are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation",

all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity

While there is a huge difference between St. Aug & St. Thomas versus the School of Salamanca, the teachings taught today and believed by all of you BODers that someone who has no explicit desire to be baptized nor belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation can be saved by his belief in a God that is, and that rewards?

That teaching is opposed to St. Augustine, St. Thomas, and ALL the Fathers, Doctors, Saints, the Athanasian Creed, and that is what you people believe.

While the only difference between St. Thomas and St. Augustine (thus the people you call Feeneyites) is that St. Thomas believed that God would send a preacher to teach the faith or internally enlighten the person of the mysteries of the Incarnation and the Trinity, while St. Augustine believed the same except that God would also enlighten the person to the fact that he needed to be baptized and have the anyone baptize him.

Nishant · « **Reply #44 on:** October 09, 2013, 05:28:49 PM »

You're impossible, Bowler, you really are.

You left off Hobbledehoy's thread. In case you read that thread (below), even only the last pages, you will see three posters (PereJoseph, SJB, Ambrose) beside myself affirming that explicit belief in the Trinity and Incarnation is necessary by means for salvation.

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php?a=topic&t=27386&min=155&num=5

I quoted St. Alphonsus above, by the way. He understands what you do not. That in an act of perfect love of God, (yes, one must know explicitly that God is a Trinity in the Christian dispensation), the desire for baptism is necessarily implicit, because he who loves God truly and above all things desires the whole (to obey all the commands) and therefore desires every part of that whole (to obey every specific command, even those he is unaware of, like the command to be baptized). The same is plain in Sacred Scripture, where Christ promises to all who believe in and love Him, without distinguishing catechumen and penitent, that the indwelling of the Holy Trinity in that soul will be the result, which means he will be in the state of grace and inside the Church. The same for baptism of blood, where Christ promises and Tradition understands that he who desires to die for confessing Christ, desires to obey Christ truly and therefore desires baptism and is saved.