Author Topic: A question for SJB and others, also.  (Read 3078 times)

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Offline Jehanne

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A question for SJB and others, also.
« on: October 03, 2013, 06:48:35 AM »
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  • I think that this one deserves its own thread:

    Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Scheeben
    III. Infidels, to whom the faith was never preached, are not left without sufficient grace to secure the salvation of their souls.


    Is it possible that we could lead such souls into mortal sin by preaching the Gospel to them?

    Offline bowler

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    A question for SJB and others, also.
    « Reply #1 on: October 05, 2013, 09:45:37 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    I think that this one deserves its own thread:

    Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Scheeben
    III. Infidels, to whom the faith was never preached, are not left without sufficient grace to secure the salvation of their souls.


    Is it possible that we could lead such souls into mortal sin by preaching the Gospel to them?


    No BODer on CI will respond to your posting of a few days ago because they really a limited knowledge about the subject of BOD, some basic  old hashed out quotes that they have been parroting for years. Your question forces them to think outside of the box, and they never knew how to think in the first place, they are just parrots.

    Aaaak Feeneyite, Aaaak Fr. Feeney was excommunicated, AaaaK BOD is defied,  Aaaak...


    Offline bowler

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    A question for SJB and others, also.
    « Reply #2 on: October 05, 2013, 09:55:14 AM »
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    Offline bowler

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    A question for SJB and others, also.
    « Reply #3 on: October 05, 2013, 09:57:42 AM »
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    Offline bowler

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    A question for SJB and others, also.
    « Reply #4 on: October 05, 2013, 09:58:50 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    I think that this one deserves its own thread:

    Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Scheeben
    III. Infidels, to whom the faith was never preached, are not left without sufficient grace to secure the salvation of their souls.


    Is it possible that we could lead such souls into mortal sin by preaching the Gospel to them?


    No BODer on CI will respond to your posting of a few days ago because they really only have a limited knowledge about the subject of BOD, some basic  old hashed out quotes that they have been parroting for years. Your question forces them to think outside of the box, and they never knew how to think in the first place, they are just parrots.

    Aaaak Feeneyite, Aaaak Fr. Feeney was excommunicated, AaaaK BOD is defide,  Aaaak invincible ignorance is defide according to the 1949 Holy Office letter, Aaaak...  


    Offline SJB

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    A question for SJB and others, also.
    « Reply #5 on: October 05, 2013, 10:47:12 AM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
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    I see you've had to delete your response once again. You seem more than a little out of control.

    Anyway, I had already responded to this on the original thread. The question itself has nothing to do with BOD, and it's formulation shows a lack of understanding of the mission of the Church.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Jehanne

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    A question for SJB and others, also.
    « Reply #6 on: October 05, 2013, 01:23:43 PM »
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  • Well, at least "humor me", SJB, and show me my error and/or misunderstandings on this thread.

    P.S.  Thanks, Bowler.

    Offline SJB

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    A question for SJB and others, also.
    « Reply #7 on: October 05, 2013, 01:42:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Well, at least "humor me", SJB, and show me my error and/or misunderstandings on this thread.

    P.S.  Thanks, Bowler.


    If your question had a point or motivation, I assume you think there is some contradiction that will be revealed in the answer. The answer is of course that the Gospel can and must be preached to all men. Ignorance of any kind can't save anybody, it merely can, if invincible, excuse some breach of the law. Implicit in your question, is an assumption of some kind of "salvific" ignorance being disturbed by the preaching of the Gospel, which is nonsense.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Frances

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    A question for SJB and others, also.
    « Reply #8 on: October 05, 2013, 01:43:38 PM »
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  •  :heretic:
    I think this is a heresy, but I don't know which one.  Possibly, it's related to Originism, thee belief that in the very end, Hell will be emptied out and all will be saved.  Most of the Old Order Amish believe this, and use it to justify NOT evangelising.
     :dancing-banana:
     St. Francis Xavier threw a Crucifix into the sea, at once calming the waves.  Upon reaching the shore, the Crucifix was returned to him by a crab with a curious cross pattern on its shell.  

    Offline 2Vermont

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    A question for SJB and others, also.
    « Reply #9 on: October 05, 2013, 01:48:08 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Well, at least "humor me", SJB, and show me my error and/or misunderstandings on this thread.

    P.S.  Thanks, Bowler.


    I do not understand what your thread is asking and the fact that bowler seems to agree with you is the reason why I thought you agreed with his views of BOD.

    And yet the post you made in the other thread about your POV seems to agree with what I think.

    I'm so confused.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Offline Jehanne

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    A question for SJB and others, also.
    « Reply #10 on: October 05, 2013, 01:54:20 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Well, at least "humor me", SJB, and show me my error and/or misunderstandings on this thread.

    P.S.  Thanks, Bowler.


    If your question had a point or motivation, I assume you think there is some contradiction that will be revealed in the answer. The answer is of course that the Gospel can and must be preached to all men. Ignorance of any kind can't save anybody, it merely can, if invincible, excuse some breach of the law. Implicit in your question, is an assumption of some kind of "salvific" ignorance being disturbed by the preaching of the Gospel, which is nonsense.


    Others have made this exact claim, however, that we, as Catholics, should not disturb the "implicit faith" and/or "goodwill" of non-Catholics by sharing the Truth with them, and in doing so, we could cause them to forfeit their "implicit faith."


    Offline Jehanne

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    A question for SJB and others, also.
    « Reply #11 on: October 05, 2013, 03:00:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Well, at least "humor me", SJB, and show me my error and/or misunderstandings on this thread.

    P.S.  Thanks, Bowler.


    I do not understand what your thread is asking and the fact that bowler seems to agree with you is the reason why I thought you agreed with his views of BOD.

    And yet the post you made in the other thread about your POV seems to agree with what I think.

    I'm so confused.


    I PM'd Bowler and asked him to give this thread a little "kick".  No, I and Bowler don't agree on everything, but I think we are in complete agreement on the essentials.

    Offline bowler

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    A question for SJB and others, also.
    « Reply #12 on: October 07, 2013, 09:53:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Well, at least "humor me", SJB, and show me my error and/or misunderstandings on this thread.

    P.S.  Thanks, Bowler.


    If your question had a point or motivation, I assume you think there is some contradiction that will be revealed in the answer. The answer is of course that the Gospel can and must be preached to all men. Ignorance of any kind can't save anybody, it merely can, if invincible, excuse some breach of the law. Implicit in your question, is an assumption of some kind of "salvific" ignorance being disturbed by the preaching of the Gospel, which is nonsense.


    Aaaak:  Ignorance of any kind can't save anybody, it merely can, if invincible, excuse some breach of the law



    Dear Jehanne,

    That response from SJB is the parroted "canned" answer that you'll get from BODers to your question. Like all of their answers to the inconsistencies in their Frankenstein belief system, they don't think about what they are saying, they just parrot it out.

    Their "system" is this:  They start out by first disbelieving that anyone nice (Like Ronald Reagan, Mahatma Gandhi, Flipper etc.) could go to hell, then they look for whatever confirms their belief, a line from this, a line from that. That is their system.

    Here's their canned answer changed in a few words to show how silly they are:

    Quote
    "a bat can't hit homeruns, it merely can, if it is wielded perfectly by a competent athlete"


    The answer of course is ridiculous, because anybody knows that bat can't hit homeruns by itself, it is just a piece of wood. AND No one asked that ridiculous question. We asked how does a batter hit a homerun? We did not ask how does a bat hit homeruns.  And the answer is that he hits it because he has the athletic prowess to do it, and he does it with a bat.

    The answer "Ignorance of any kind can't save anybody, it merely can, if invincible, excuse some breach of the law", is a stupid response from parrots who don't think, they just, well, parrot.

    Offline SJB

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    A question for SJB and others, also.
    « Reply #13 on: October 07, 2013, 12:32:40 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    They start out by first disbelieving that anyone nice (Like Ronald Reagan, Mahatma Gandhi, Flipper etc.) could go to hell ...


    Nobody has said this, so there's no need to defend it. It's becoming clear that you are simply an ignoramus and therefore a complete waste of time.

    It was either you or stubborn that denied invincible ignorance even exists. For your sake, you'd better hope it does.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline bowler

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    A question for SJB and others, also.
    « Reply #14 on: October 07, 2013, 02:28:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: bowler
    They start out by first disbelieving that anyone nice (Like Ronald Reagan, Mahatma Gandhi, Flipper etc.) could go to hell ...


    ....

    It was either you or stubborn that denied invincible ignorance even exists.


    Actually, it was also ALL the Fathers, Saints, Doctors that  rejected the idea of salvation in the New Dispensation by ignorance. Ignorance is ignorance.

    That's why you can't post any tradition to the effect. Yet another inconsistency in your belief "system". Show me all your quotes about the salvation of people who have no explicit desire to be Catholics, from the Fathers, Doctors, Saints?  

    Quote
    The excuse of ignorance is denied those who know the commandments of God, but neither will those who do not know be without punishment. "For, as many as have sinned outside the law shall also perish outside the law" (Romans 2:12). Without faith in Christ, no man can be delivered; therefore, they will be judged in such a way that they perish. "The ser¬vant who does not know his Lord's will, and who commits things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes; whereas, the servant who knows his Lord's will, shall be beaten with many stripes" (Lk. 12:47 48). Observe here that it is a more serious matter for a man to sin with knowledge than in ignorance. And yet, we must not take refuge on this account to shades of ignorance, to find our excuse therein. Even ignorance which belongs to them who are, as it were, simply ignorant does not excuse anyone so as to exempt him from eternal fire, even were his failure to believe the result of not having heard at all what he should believe. It was not said without reason: "Pour out Thy wrath upon the nations who have not known Thee" (Psalm 78:6), and "He shall come from Heaven in a flame of fire to take vengeance on those who do not know God" (Thess.111:7 8).
    (St. Augustine)




    “Just imagine, my dear listeners, the whole secret of salvation being missed in the Gospels, in the teachings of the Apostles, in the protestations of the Saints, in the defined teachings of the Popes, in all the prayers and the liturgies of the Church – and imagine it suddenly coming clear in one or two carelessly worded sentences in an encyclical of Pope Pius IX, on which the Liberals base their teaching that there is salvation outside the Church.” [Fr. Leonard Feeney, Bread of Life, Cambridge, MA: St. Benedict Center, 1952, p. 53.

     

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