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Author Topic: A One-Step Refutation of Sedevacantism  (Read 8871 times)

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Offline s2srea

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A One-Step Refutation of Sedevacantism
« Reply #45 on: June 19, 2012, 11:02:32 AM »
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  • Quote from: Santo Subito
    Earthly head = vicar. Sedes and Prots both reject God's authority on earth in preference of being their own authority. The Catholic Church has a head an authority on earth called the pope. Where Peter is, there is the Church. No Peter = no Church. The Sedes and the Prots believe in an invisible Church.


    The Catholic Church also has a universal and ordinary magesterium. I am no sede, but I'd like to help you with the flaws I see in your observation of sedes.

    You've compared sede's with protestants wrongly so. I'm no philosopher, but lets try this to show you the flaw I see:

    Major: Sede's reject Benedict, and all popes since VII
    Minor: Prot's reject Benedict, and all popes since VII
    Your Conclusion: Sede's and Prots both reject God's Authority on Earth

    The difference here is this: Sede's still accept the universal and ordinary magesterium of the Church; aka, "God's Authority", so long as it is in union with the teachings of the Church- you must be within the teaching of the Roman Catholic faith to be protected and "authorized" by it; as soon as you step out of that circle, on your own accord, as an individual, one does not necessarily retain authority, certainly not of God as he is Goodness Itself, and what is not true, is not Good. Protestants reject all of this outright.

    Sedes are rejecting what they see as contradictory, a Pope who contradicts the Magesterium of the church as taught for almost 2000 years before him. Their conclusion and mine, as to being able to determine his office, may be different but they are a far cry from the conclusion given above. I believe that equating them to protestants, simply because both reject the Modernist popes as Vicars, damages the credibility you usually have when you post on here.

    Offline Malleus 01

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    A One-Step Refutation of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #46 on: June 20, 2012, 10:15:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: s2srea
    Quote from: Santo Subito
    Earthly head = vicar. Sedes and Prots both reject God's authority on earth in preference of being their own authority. The Catholic Church has a head an authority on earth called the pope. Where Peter is, there is the Church. No Peter = no Church. The Sedes and the Prots believe in an invisible Church.


    The Catholic Church also has a universal and ordinary magesterium. I am no sede, but I'd like to help you with the flaws I see in your observation of sedes.

    You've compared sede's with protestants wrongly so. I'm no philosopher, but lets try this to show you the flaw I see:

    Major: Sede's reject Benedict, and all popes since VII
    Minor: Prot's reject Benedict, and all popes since VII
    Your Conclusion: Sede's and Prots both reject God's Authority on Earth

    The difference here is this: Sede's still accept the universal and ordinary magesterium of the Church; aka, "God's Authority", so long as it is in union with the teachings of the Church- you must be within the teaching of the Roman Catholic faith to be protected and "authorized" by it; as soon as you step out of that circle, on your own accord, as an individual, one does not necessarily retain authority, certainly not of God as he is Goodness Itself, and what is not true, is not Good. Protestants reject all of this outright.

    Sedes are rejecting what they see as contradictory, a Pope who contradicts the Magesterium of the church as taught for almost 2000 years before him. Their conclusion and mine, as to being able to determine his office, may be different but they are a far cry from the conclusion given above. I believe that equating them to protestants, simply because both reject the Modernist popes as Vicars, damages the credibility you usually have when you post on here.


    Precisely. Sedevacantists and the Recognise and Resist are both responses to deviations from the Orthodox Teaching Authority of Holy Mother the Church for the past 2000 or so years prior to Vatican II.  If an Orthodox Pope Emerged who leads the Church in an Orthodox manner both the Recognise and Resist and the Sedevacantist would have no grounds any longer to remain in these Theological positions.   A Protestant would remain a Protestant.  


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A One-Step Refutation of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #47 on: June 20, 2012, 12:02:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Malleus 01
    ...If an Orthodox Pope emerged who leads the Church in an Orthodox manner both the Recognize and Resist and the Sedevacantist would have no grounds any longer to remain in these theological positions.   A Protestant would remain a Protestant.  



    Yes. Of course, Protestants are always welcome to convert!

    Such a Pope would at least do an end run around Vatican II, consecrate Russia to the
    IHM with all the bishops (any bishops who refuse would immediately lose their office)
    and restore the Canonized Latin Mass to all Roman Rite parishes. And the Church
    would be restored and the Faithful would be united once again. We would finally know
    what it means again to be Catholic.

    These actions would be unifying in their effects, because the Church is One, and
    when the Church is allowed to appear as she really is, instead of obscured (as she
    has been for the past 60 years) her one-ness will again become evident to all.

    It's such a hoot to hear these things denounced because they say they're "divisive."
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    A One-Step Refutation of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #48 on: June 20, 2012, 03:21:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Such a Pope would at least do an end run around Vatican II,


    I have to disagree with this.  It's an absolute imperative that Vatican II be declared null and void and rescinded from all authentic standing orders.  Vatican II is not just a council "gone wrong" it should be declared an anathema because it is malignant cancer.

    Everything else you said is spot on!  :smile:

    Offline Malleus 01

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    A One-Step Refutation of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #49 on: June 20, 2012, 03:37:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote from: Malleus 01
    ...If an Orthodox Pope emerged who leads the Church in an Orthodox manner both the Recognize and Resist and the Sedevacantist would have no grounds any longer to remain in these theological positions.   A Protestant would remain a Protestant.  



    Yes. Of course, Protestants are always welcome to convert!

    Such a Pope would at least do an end run around Vatican II, consecrate Russia to the
    IHM with all the bishops (any bishops who refuse would immediately lose their office)
    and restore the Canonized Latin Mass to all Roman Rite parishes. And the Church
    would be restored and the Faithful would be united once again. We would finally know
    what it means again to be Catholic.

    These actions would be unifying in their effects, because the Church is One, and
    when the Church is allowed to appear as she really is, instead of obscured (as she
    has been for the past 60 years) her one-ness will again become evident to all.

    It's such a hoot to hear these things denounced because they say they're "divisive."


    Great point - because also once again the need to convert would be stressed by the True Pope.


    Offline Malleus 01

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    A One-Step Refutation of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #50 on: June 20, 2012, 03:38:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Such a Pope would at least do an end run around Vatican II,


    I have to disagree with this.  It's an absolute imperative that Vatican II be declared null and void and rescinded from all authentic standing orders.  Vatican II is not just a council "gone wrong" it should be declared an anathema because it is malignant cancer.

    Everything else you said is spot on!  :smile:


    I agree and all the resulting doctrine that eminated as well.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    A One-Step Refutation of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #51 on: June 22, 2012, 01:20:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: Malleus 01
    Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Such a Pope would at least do an end run around Vatican II,


    I have to disagree with this.  It's an absolute imperative that Vatican II be declared null and void and rescinded from all authentic standing orders.  Vatican II is not just a council "gone wrong" it should be declared an anathema because it is malignant cancer.

    Everything else you said is spot on!  :smile:


    I agree and all the resulting doctrine that eminated as well.


    If it were possible to pull it off, I'd say fine, but there are a lot of Catholics today
    who are too invested in the errors of Vat. II, and they would not so easily
    let go and give it up. It's like someone who's 80 and habitual TV watcher.
    Are they going to go cold turkey overnight? Not without withdrawal symptoms.

    As it is, all they would have to do is re-convene Vatican I, without making
    any mention of Vatican II. This time, don't have any Liberals on the board.
    Pick up where Vatican I left off, because it was never closed. It was merely
    postponed because of political turmoil in Italy at the time, and it was going
    to be re-convened at a later time. That's what the original schemas for
    Vatican II were, which Lefebvre was assisting with, to prepare.

    But we could not call this Vatican II because that name is already soiled forever.
    It would need a new name, and I don't know what that would be. The Liberals
    at Vat. II threw all the schemas in the trash and started over. So that's the
    plan: throw Vat. II in the trash and pick up where Vat. I left off, 140 years ago.

    No excuses need be made, and if anyone screams and moans about what's
    going on here, just throw them into prison and post a guard. Simple.
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Malleus 01

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    A One-Step Refutation of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #52 on: June 22, 2012, 09:02:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Quote from: Malleus 01
    Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Quote from: Neil Obstat
    Such a Pope would at least do an end run around Vatican II,


    I have to disagree with this.  It's an absolute imperative that Vatican II be declared null and void and rescinded from all authentic standing orders.  Vatican II is not just a council "gone wrong" it should be declared an anathema because it is malignant cancer.

    Everything else you said is spot on!  :smile:


    I agree and all the resulting doctrine that eminated as well.


    If it were possible to pull it off, I'd say fine, but there are a lot of Catholics today
    who are too invested in the errors of Vat. II, and they would not so easily
    let go and give it up. It's like someone who's 80 and habitual TV watcher.
    Are they going to go cold turkey overnight? Not without withdrawal symptoms.

    As it is, all they would have to do is re-convene Vatican I, without making
    any mention of Vatican II. This time, don't have any Liberals on the board.
    Pick up where Vatican I left off, because it was never closed. It was merely
    postponed because of political turmoil in Italy at the time, and it was going
    to be re-convened at a later time. That's what the original schemas for
    Vatican II were, which Lefebvre was assisting with, to prepare.

    But we could not call this Vatican II because that name is already soiled forever.
    It would need a new name, and I don't know what that would be. The Liberals
    at Vat. II threw all the schemas in the trash and started over. So that's the
    plan: throw Vat. II in the trash and pick up where Vat. I left off, 140 years ago.

    No excuses need be made, and if anyone screams and moans about what's
    going on here, just throw them into prison and post a guard. Simple.


    The Church just needs to remove all the ambiguities from the language by replacing in full all the docuмents of Vatican II - remove all vestiges of the Heresies of Religious liberty , Religious indifferentism and False Ecuмenism and as you say return to the Schemas prepared initially for Vatican II.

    Vatican II Reminds me of Obamas Health Care initiative - ten feet thick on purpose so people wont know whats in it.

    Get rid of it entirely and replace it with a concise streamlined no nonsense format complete with Anathemas and be done with it.   The Church does not exist to accomodate man - the Church exists to teach the Doctrine to the Faithful so they can please GOD.  To those who need to wean themselves off Modernism , to me its like saying you have to gradually wean yourself off a cancerous tumor - no - you need to cut it out completely because if you wait it will only get worse. Sure , it might be painful for awhile - but you wont die from it.


    Offline stevusmagnus

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    A One-Step Refutation of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #53 on: July 09, 2012, 10:10:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: Neil Obstat
    As it is, all they would have to do is re-convene Vatican I, without making any mention of Vatican II.


    Too late. The Modernists thought of everything...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Vatican_Council

    "Consequently, on 20 September 1870 the Kingdom of Italy captured Rome and annexed it. One month later, on 20 October 1870, Pope Pius IX suspended the Council indefinitely. It was never reconvened and formally closed in 1960 prior to Second Vatican Council."

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    A One-Step Refutation of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #54 on: July 10, 2012, 06:19:08 AM »
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  • http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=25&catname=10

    Did Bellarmine Condemn Sedevacantism?
    Rev. Anthony Cekada

    IN DEBATES AMONG traditional Catholics regarding the legitimacy of the post-Conciliar popes, the following quote from St. Robert Bellarmine has been repeatedly recycled:

    Just as it is licit to resist the Pontiff who attacks the body, so also is it licit to resist him who attacks souls or destroys the civil order or above all, tries to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will. It is not licit, however, to judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior. (De Romano Pontifice. II.29.)

          Some use this quote, taken from Bellarmine’s lengthy treatise defending the power of the pope, to condemn “sedevacantism” — the thesis which maintains that the post-Conciliar hierarchy, including the post-Conciliar popes, lost their office ipso facto through heresy. I have seen it employed this way no less that three times in the past four months — once in The Remnant (Edwin Faust, “Signa Temporum,” 15 April 1994, 8), once in The Catholic (Michael Farrell, Letter to Editor, “Simple Answer to the Sede-Vacantists,” April 1994, 10), and once by a Society of St. Pius X priest.

          Traditional Catholics who reject the New Mass and the post-Vatican II changes but still maintain that the post-Conciliar popes legitimately hold office — a group which includes the Society, Michael Davies, and many others — also see in this passage some sort of justification for recognizing someone as pope but rejecting his commands.

          The quote has been cited over and over to support these positions, in complete good faith, no doubt. Alas, it has been taken out of context and completely misapplied. In its original context, Bellarmine’s statement neither condemns the principle behind the sedevacantist position, nor justifies resisting laws promulgated by a validly-elected pope.

          What is more, in the chapter immediately following the statement quoted, Bellarmine defends the thesis that a heretical pope automatically loses his office.

          In passing, we should first note how it is a stupid calumny to cite this passage and to suggest that sedevacantists “judge,” “punish,” or “depose” the pope. They do no such thing. They merely apply to the words and acts of post-Conciliar popes a principle enunciated by many great canonists and theologians, including (as we shall see) St. Robert Bellarmine: a heretical pope “deposes” himself.
     
    I.    The meaning of the passage has been distorted by taking it out of its proper context.

          The passage cited is from a lengthy chapter Bellarmine devotes to refuting nine arguments advocating the position that the pope is subject to secular power (emperor, king, etc.) and an ecuмenical council (the heresy of conciliarism).

          The general context, therefore, is a discussion of the power of the state vis-à-vis the pope. Obviously, this has nothing whatsoever to do with issues the sedevacantists have raised.

          In its particular context, the oft-cited quote is part of Bellarmine’s refutation of the following argument:

    Argument 7. Any person is permitted to kill the pope if he is unjustly attacked by him. Therefore, even more so is it permitted for kings or a council to depose the pope if he disturbs the state, or if he tries to kill souls by his bad example.
    Bellarmine answers:

    I respond by denying the second part of the argument. For to resist an attacker and defend one’s self, no authority is needed, nor is it necessary that he who is attacked be the judge and superior of him who attacks. Authority is required, however, to judge and punish.

    It is only then that Bellarmine states:

    Just as it is licit to resist the Pontiff who attacks the body, so also is it licit to resist him who attacks souls or destroys the civil order or above all, tries to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will. It is not licit, however, to judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior. (De Romano Pontifice. II.29.)

          The quote, then, is not a condemnation of “sedevacantism.” Bellarmine, rather, is discussing the course of action which may legitimately be taken against a pope who upsets the political order or “kills souls by his bad example.” A king or a council may not depose such a pope, Bellarmine argues, because they are not his superior — but they may resist him.

          Nor does this quote support those traditional Catholics who would recognize John Paul II as pope but reject his Mass and ignore his laws.

          First, the passage justifies resistance by kings and councils. It does not say that individual bishops, priests and laymen on their own possess this right to resist the pope and ignore his commands — still less that they can set up places of worship in opposition to diocesan bishops a pope has lawfully appointed.

          Second, note the precise causes for resistance in the case Bellarmine is discussing: disturbing the state or giving bad example. These, obviously, are not the same thing as papal liturgical legislation, disciplinary laws or doctrinal pronouncements which an individual might somehow deem harmful. Bellarmine would hardly approve of disregarding, carte blanche, for 30 years the directives of men one claims to recognize as legitimate occupants of the papal office and the vicars of Christ on earth.

          In sum, the passage neither condemns sedevacantism nor supports traditionalists like the adherents of the Society of St. Pius X.
     
    II.   Bellarmine teaches that a heretical pope automatically loses his office.

          In the chapter which immediately follows the passage cited, St. Robert Bellarmine treats the following question: “Whether a heretical pope can be deposed.” Note first, by the way, that his question assumes a pope can in fact become a heretic.

          After a lengthy discussion of various opinions theologians have given on this issue, Bellarmine says:

    The fifth opinion therefore is the true one. A pope who is a manifest heretic automatically (per se) ceases to be pope and head, just as he ceases automatically to be a Christian and a member of the Church. Wherefore, he can be judged and punished by the Church. This is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers who teach that manifest heretics immediately lose all jurisdiction. (De Romano Pontifice. II.30. My emphasis)

          Bellarmine then cites passages from Cyprian, Driedonus and Melchior Cano in support of his position. The basis for this teaching, he says finally, is that a manifest heretic is in no way a member of the Church — neither of its soul nor its body, neither by an internal union nor an external one.

          Thus the writings of Bellarmine, far from condemning the sedevacantist position, provide the central principle upon which it is based — that a pope who becomes a manifest heretic automatically loses his office and jurisdiction.

          Nor is Bellarmine’s teaching an isolated opinion. It is the teaching of all the ancient Fathers, he assures us. And the principle he enunciated has been reiterated by theologians and canonists right into the 20th century, including commentators on the 1983 Code of Canon Law promulgated by John Paul II himself.

    *   *   *   *   *

    THOSE WHO WOULD recognize John Paul II as pope while disregarding all his commands, therefore, can take no consolation whatsoever in the passage from Bellarmine.

          It is the sedevacantist position, rather, that is supported by the teaching of the great Robert Bellarmine: a legitimate pope must be obeyed; a heretical pope loses his office.
    (Sacerdotium 12, Summer 1994).
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    A One-Step Refutation of Sedevacantism
    « Reply #55 on: July 10, 2012, 07:55:12 PM »
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  • In Catholic history, how were other councils or synods declared null and void?

    What is the administrative process?

    Once Vatican II is declared null and void, it would really only take 11-33 years to restore the Catholic Church.  Traditional Churches could be rebuilt.  Really ugly novus ordo churches could be destroyed.  Moderately ugly novus ordo churches could be consecrated after communion rails and altars are added to the interior (along with a half dozen nice statues).  Many novus ordo priests could be conditionally reordained.  

    First, before the patient can heal, the cancer must be removed.  

    God willing!