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Author Topic: A false understanding of obedience?  (Read 662 times)

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Offline Jovita

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A false understanding of obedience?
« on: April 04, 2017, 03:03:43 PM »
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  • Let's see, I do not want to write a book here, but I question this blind, you must obey teaching. I obey God's commandments and the way in the Bible. In the short time I have been back in the church, I have only seen horrible consequences of blind obedience, especially regarding the local ordinaries here (bishops). I have seen very godly, spiritual people, hurt very badly.

    I take advice from people I know who lead godly lives. Is that wrong? 


    Online Nadir

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    Re: A false understanding of obedience?
    « Reply #1 on: April 04, 2017, 05:15:15 PM »
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  • Let's see, I do not want to write a book here, but I question this blind, you must obey teaching. I obey God's commandments and the way in the Bible. In the short time I have been back in the church, I have only seen horrible consequences of blind obedience, especially regarding the local ordinaries here (bishops). I have seen very godly, spiritual people, hurt very badly.

    I take advice from people I know who lead godly lives. Is that wrong?
    I find your post a little confused. The title talks of obedience, then the first paragraph of blind obedience, and finally the question refers to taking advice, which is yet a third concept.
    We owe obedience to every legitimate authority, that is, depending on our state in life, to our parents, husband, superior, priest, bishop, pope, except in the case of being commanded to do something which is forbidden by the Laws of God and His Church, who is the ultimate authority and the source of authority for all the aforementioned. 
    Of course, it is our responsibility NOT to be blind to what God commands and forbids, so that our obedience is not "blind".
    As to your final sentence: The sinfulness of the person whose authority we are under is not a reason to disobey. Our course it is always more satisfying that we are under those who lead Godly lives. But their sins do not detract from their legitimate authority. After all, we are are all sinners. 
    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline GottmitunsAlex

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    Re: A false understanding of obedience?
    « Reply #2 on: April 04, 2017, 05:55:16 PM »
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  • I wonder that you are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ, unto another gospel. Which is not another, only there are some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema.
    For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? If I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.
    "As the head of the Church, I cannot answer you otherwise: The Jєωs have not recognized Our Lord; therefore we cannot recognize the Jєωιѕн people." -Pope St. Pius X

    "No Jєω adores God! Who say so?  The Son of God say so."

    Offline poche

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    Re: A false understanding of obedience?
    « Reply #3 on: April 04, 2017, 11:30:35 PM »
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  • There is a story during the time of St Francis.
    There was a community of friars where the superior ordered his friars to uproot all the vegetables in teh garden. They did so and St Francis approved.
    Then the superior ordered his friars to uproot all the vegetables of the neighboring farmer. The friars disobeyed and St Francis approved also. Obedience is owed in all things but sin. 
     

    Offline Macarius

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    Re: A false understanding of obedience?
    « Reply #4 on: April 11, 2017, 01:33:20 AM »
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  • Obedience is exemplified by the life of Our Lord, His Holy Mother the Most Blessed Virgin, and her Most Chaste Spouse Joseph.

    St. Ignatius of Loyola, Western master of spiritual discernment:

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    We must put aside all judgment of our own, and keep the mind ever ready and prompt to obey in all things the true Spouse of Christ our Lord, our holy Mother, the hierarchical Church. We should praise sacramental confession ... the frequent hearing of Mass ... vows of religion ... relics of the saints by venerating them ... the regulations of the Church ... images and veneration of them. ... Finally, we must praise all the commandments of the Church, and be on the alert to find reasons to defend them, and by no means in order to criticize them. ... If we wish to proceed securely in all things, we must hold fast to the following principle: what seems to me white, I will believe black if the Hierarchical Church so defines.
    The great spiritual master Francis de Sales says:

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    Saint Paul commands us to obey all superiors, even those who are bad. Our Blessed Saviour, His Virgin Mother, and Saint Joseph have taught us this kind of obedience in the journey they took from Nazareth to Bethlehem, when Caesar published an edict that his subjects should repair to the place of their nativity to be enrolled. They complied with this order with the most affectionate obedience, though the Emperor was a pagan and an idolator, so desirous was Our Lord of showing us that we should never regard the persons of those who command, provided they be invested with sufficient authority.

    John Chrysostom said:

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     ‘Lord, thy will be done! It’s not what this or that one wants, but what You want me to do.’
    Aquinas, "Doctor Angelicus", said:

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    Obedience unites us so closely to God that in a way transforms us into Him, so that we have no other will but His.
    The great Bernardo di Chiaravalle said:


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    A Christian faithful to obedience, knows not delays, but prepares his ears for hearing, and his hands and his feet for labor.
    And quoting Abba Benedict, he continues:

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    The obedience which we render to a superior is paid to God, Who says, ‘He that hears you hears Me;’ so that whatever he who holds the place of God commands, supposing it is not evidently contrary to God's law, is to be received by us as if it came from God Himself
    The hidden but wise master of De Imitatione Cristi (though some theorize him to be Kempis) teaches:

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    It is a very great thing to obey, to live under a superior and not to be one's own master, for it is much safer to be subject than it is to command. Go where you may, you will find no rest except in humble obedience to the rule of authority. Dreams of happiness expected from change and different places have deceived many.

    Learn to obey, you who are but dust! Learn to humble yourself, you who are but earth and clay, and bow down under the foot of every man! Learn to break your own will, to submit to all subjection! Be zealous against yourself! Allow no pride to dwell in you, but prove yourself so humble and lowly that all may walk over you and trample upon you as dust in the streets!
    The Holy Pontiff Saint Pius X writes:
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    When one loves a person, one tries to adhere in everything to his thoughts, to fulfill his will, to perform his wishes. And if Our Lord Jesus Christ said of Himself, "si quis diligit me, sermonem meum servabit," [if any one love me, he will keep my word - Jn xiv, 23] therefore, in order to demonstrate our love for the Pope, it is necessary to obey him.

    Therefore, when we love the Pope, there are no discussions regarding what he orders or demands, or up to what point obedience must go, and in what things he is to be obeyed; when we love the Pope, we do not say that he has not spoken clearly enough, almost as if he were forced to repeat to the ear of each one the will clearly expressed so many times not only in person, but with letters and other public docuмents; we do not place his orders in doubt, adding the facile pretext of those unwilling to obey - that it is not the Pope who commands, but those who surround him; we do not limit the field in which he might and must exercise his authority; we do not set above the authority of the Pope that of other persons, however learned, who dissent from the Pope, who, even though learned, are not holy, because whoever is holy cannot dissent from the Pope.
    Who can obey this way without constant mortification of pride, penance for our sins, and recourse to the intercession of the Most Holy Theotokos, the All Holy, through whom all graces flow to us poor sinners?