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Author Topic: A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error  (Read 12213 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2013, 08:22:39 AM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    I actually brought up on the other thread that Ibranyi's analysis was wrong.

    Nevertheless, Pius XII DID depart from the teaching of Pius XI on the subject of NFP, but for different reasons.  I too shall start my own thread on the subject, starting with my analysis of the differences.  You're right that the other thread has disgressed onto issues regarding infallibility and the nature of papal authority.

    You may find it interesting to note that a majority of Church Fathers taught that it is sinful to have marital relations during infertile times (e.g. when the wife would be pregnant or too old to conceive, etc.)  Pius XII has "come a long way, baby."


    So I guess Pius XI taught error too.  

    No sex for old people!

    This conversation has gotten ridiculous.  I will never understand the need for some to question everything pre-Vatican II as well.  Once we start doing that there is no line drawn and anything goes.


    Where exactly did I say that Pius XI was wrong?  Just because some Church Fathers teach something doesn't mean that it supersedes Church teaching.  I brought it up by way of contrast with Pius XII.

    Offline bowler

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #16 on: November 11, 2013, 08:26:22 AM »
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  • Quote from: Director
    More... from RMJI..


    Natural Family Planning is Contraception

    ―Natural Family Planning‖ is also known as ―The Rhythm Method.‖ Pope Pius XI, in his encyclical Casti Connubii, condemns all forms of contraception as immoral, as an ―offense against the law of God and of nature and is a grave (mortal) sin.‖

    Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii: And now, Venerable Brethren, We shall explain in detail the evils opposed to each of the benefits of matrimony. First consideration is due the offspring, which many have the audacity to call the disagreeable burden of matrimony and which they say is to be carefully avoided by married people not through virtuous continence (which Christian law permits in matrimony when both parties consent) but by frustrating the marriage act. …No reason, however grave, may be put forward by anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good. Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural power and purpose, sin against nature, and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious … any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God.

    A key word is ―deliberate‖ [b]attempt to prevent [[/b]b]conception[/b]. Pope Pius XI teaches all forms of deliberately frustrating the martial act by depriving it of its natural power and purpose (conception) is a ―sin against nature‖ (the natural law) and is ―intrinsically vicious‖ (intrinsically evil).

     He does not qualify deliberate frustration by saying, only if physical devices are used during the act, or by withdrawal during the act. Birth control pills are taken before not during the act to frustrate the fertile cycle of the woman by making it infertile. Natural Family Planning (hereafter referred to as NFP), which is absolutely unnatural and immoral, uses the same prevention technique as birth control pills. The difference being that birth control pills are replaced with modern scientific techniques that chart the fertile and infertile period. In every case the goal is the exact same, to prevent conception from taking place while engaging in the marital act. Spouses that practice NFP chart the woman‘s fertile and infertile period in order that they can prevent conception by only having marital relations during the infertile period. Deliberate frustration of conception occurs either by obstructing the fertile cycle by NFP or birth control pills, or by using a physical device, or withdrawal during the marital act.

    In every case a deliberate plan is made before the act

    Married couples that attempt to frustrate conception while engaging in the martial act must formulate a deliberate plan in order to do so. In every case they deliberately formulate a plan to prevent conception before the marital act. They either plan to use physical contraceptive devices during the act, or plan to withdraw during the act, or plan to take birth control pills that prevents ovulation before the act, or plan to only have relations during the infertile period. In every case the goal of the plan is the same, to 10 prevent conception when engaging in the marital act. Whether they plan by buying the physical contraceptive devices or pills ahead of time, or the husband plans to withdraw at the appropriate time, or they plan by charting fertile and infertile periods, it is exactly the same plan. In every case they plan to prevent conception when engaging in the marital act. In a sense it could be said about NFP that a contraceptive is placed over the fertile period while engaging in the act during the infertile period, or, the husband withdraws from the act during the fertile period while engaging in it during the infertile period, or, instead of preventing ovulation with a pill it is prevented by charting cycles. Dear reader, open your eyes and ears, can you not see that the intention is the same in every case! Can you not see that NFP is contraception!

    It is intrinsically evil when spouses plan to have sɛҳuąƖ relations while also having planned to make conception impossible. It does not matter in what way the spouses plan to prevent conception. The principle is the same in all cases—the deliberate prevention of conception (child bearing) by the spouses while engaging in the marital act. The goal of contraception is to eliminate the possibility of conception while engaging in the marital act. Whether the contraception takes place during the act by physical obstruction, or before the act by obstructing the fertile period by planning to only commit the act during the infertile period. In both cases the goal of the plan is to perform the sɛҳuąƖ act without the possibility of conception. Guilt of mortal sin occurs when these two conditions are met, either in the mind or in the act. Our Lord teaches us that all sin proceeds from the heart, and manifests itself in men‘s actions. “The things which proceed out of the mouth, come forth from the heart, and those things defile a man. For from the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies.” (Mt. 15:11, 18-19)

    What is a plan? A plan is the words of a man that proceed from his mouth that come forth from his heart that he seeks to put into action. The root of every plan is in the heart. What is in the heart of spouses who plan to use physical contraceptive devices during the marital act, or plan to withdraw so as to make conception improbably, or plan to have marital relations only during the infertile period? In the heart of these spouses is the desire to have marital relations while having deliberately planned to prevent conception. Pope Pius XI describes what is in their heart, he says, ―Offspring… they say is to be carefully avoided by married people… by frustrating the marriage act… [They] deliberately frustrate its natural power and purpose.‖

     Sin originates from what is in the heart. I ask spouses who practice NFP, ―What is in your heart when you practice NFP?‖ While engaging in the martial act, after having planned to do so only during the infertile period, ask yourself in the heat of your lust, ―Am I not committing this very act with the explicit, deliberate, premeditated planned intention of preventing conception while fulfilling my lust?‖ If your wish or prayer is to have relations and that conception does not occur, then you committed the mortal sin of contraception.
     
    St. Augustine, Marriage and Concupiscence 1:15:17 [A.D. 419]: ―I am supposing, then, although are not lying [with your wife] for the sake of procreating offspring, you are not for the sake of lust obstructing their procreation by an evil prayer or an evil deed. Those who do this, although they are called husband and wife, are not; nor do they retain any reality of marriage, but with a respectable name cover a shame. Sometimes this lustful cruelty, or cruel lust, comes to this, that they even procure poisons of sterility …Assuredly if both husband and wife are like this, they are not married, and if they were like this from the beginning they come together not joined in matrimony but in seduction. If both are not like this, I dare to say that 11   either the wife is in a fashion the harlot of her husband or he is an adulterer with his own wife.‖

    Even if the spouses have relations for mutual love, which is a precarious concept I will deal with later, and have deliberately planned to prevent conception, then they commit the mortal sin or contraception, which is always intrinsically evil. It is contraception—contrary to conception. Whether conception is prevented by the use of a physical device or withdrawal during the marital act or by planned obstruction of the fertile period while only engaging in the act during the unfertile period, it is all contraception; the planning of man to prevent conception while engaging in the martial act. Man thus takes the place of God in determining if conception should take place during the marital act.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #17 on: November 11, 2013, 08:26:46 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    There was no confusion on this issue, until the liberals twisted Pope Pius XII's teaching, and using the new renamed term, Natural Family Planning, allowed the floodgates to open with all sorts of novelties.


    Pius XII was the one who opened the floodgates.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #18 on: November 11, 2013, 08:45:05 AM »
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  • I'll repeat this from the other thread.

    Pius XI taught that TWO principles applied in ascertaining the moral qualities of the marital act:

    1) that the "natural power" or "inherent force" of the action cannot be violated (artificial birth control, Onanism, etc.)

    AND

    2) that the primary end or purpose of marriage cannot be subordinated to the secondary ends.

    Pius XII in the Allocution DROPPED the second condition or consideration enitrely.  I'll go fetch my juxtaposition of Pius XI and Pius XII's paraphrase of Pius XI.

    NFP is different from ABC in that it avoids violating principle #1.  In other words, it's not INTRINSICALLY immoral, whereas ABC IS because by its very nature it inherently violates the first principle.

    But just because something isn't intrinisically immoral doesn't mean it can't be immoral for other reasons, i.e. because it's FORMALLY immoral, i.e. due to the intent.

    Pius XII argued that since one may abstain from marital relations, it's OK to abstain from marital relations ONLY during fertile times.  His reasoning is just plain wrong.  That does not necessarily follow.  In abstaining altogether, the couple actually tacitly respects the primary ends of marriage.

    HOWEVER ... when a couple abstains from the marital act only during fertile periods, they are clearly trying to exercise the marital act for the secondary ends while DELIBERATELY ATTEMPTING TO EXCLUDE REALIZATION OF THE PRIMARY END.

    If that isn't subordinating the primary end to the secondary ends (which Pius XI condemned), then I don't know what is.  Ambrose has not yet come close to explaining how one can engage in selective abstinence during fertile periods and NOT be doing exactly what Pius XI condemned.  I'm all ears.

    And just because Pius XII put a condition of "serious reasons" on NFP doesn't mean that his principles didn't open the floodgates on NFP.  Because we're just talking about various interpretations of "serious".  When Pius XII lists among "serious" reasons things like "eugenic" and "social" and "economic" considerations, that clearly opens the floodgates.  Serious doesn't have to mean "grave" or "dire"; it only serves as a contrast to "light" or "trivial".  So, based on Pius XII, if I'm having some trouble paying my bills or I'm psychologically worn down by having lots of loud children, or I'm older and have increased risk for having a child with Down syndrome ... all that could easily qualify me for NFP.  Or we're having relationship problems, so it would be unhealthy for a child to be in this environment.  There's no clear, hard, solid line here from the Pius XII teaching.

    I'll dig up my contrasting Pius XI vs. Pius XII quotes.

    PS -- Ibranyi got it wrong for the same reasons I'm citing here, his failure to distinguish betwen #1 and #2 as listed above.  Ibranyi conflated the two considerations.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #19 on: November 11, 2013, 09:05:22 AM »
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  • I dug this up from a post I made 3 days ago on the previous thread:


    Let's now have a look at Casti Conubii from Pius XI.

    Quote from: Pius XI
    Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural powers AND PURPOSE sin against nature and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious. ... For in matrimony as well as in the use of the matrimonial right there are also secondary ends, such as mutual aid, the cultivating of mutual love, and the quieting of concupiscence which husband and wife are not forbidden to consider SO LONG AS THEY ARE SUBORDINATED TO THE PRIMARY END AND so long as the intrinsic nature of the act is preserved.


    Pius XI taught that not only must the instrinisic nature of the act and "natural powers" be preserved (i.e. against artificial birth control, Onanism, etc.) but ALSO that the "purpose" cannot be frustrated, that the secondary ENDS must be subordinated to the PRIMARY.

    Piux XII ignored the second part about the purpose and ends and simply said that it's OK to subordinate the primary purpose to the secondary and to frustrated the "purpose" of the marital ACT so long as its "natural powers" are preserved.  He picks up on the Pius XII "natural powers" part but then conveniently drops that part about the purpose and ends.

    Pius XII, in the aforementioned allocution, cites Casti Conubii, citing the part about the "inherent force" but ignoring the part about the ends and purpose.

    Quote from: Pius XII
    Our Predecessor, Pius XI, of happy memory, in his Encyclical <Casti Connubii>, of December 31, 1930, once again solemnly proclaimed the fundamental law of the conjugal act and conjugal relations: that every attempt of either husband or wife in the performance of the conjugal act or in the development of its natural consequences which aims at depriving it of its inherent force and hinders the procreation of new life is immoral; and that no "indication" or need can convert an act which is intrinsically immoral into a moral and lawful one.



    Offline bowler

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #20 on: November 11, 2013, 09:26:52 AM »
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    Offline bowler

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #21 on: November 11, 2013, 09:30:36 AM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    My observations in red:
    Quote from: Ambrose





    The second problem came about when certain writers, not content with correcting modernist abuse of the teaching on the lawful use of the rhythm, actually attacked the orthodox teaching of Pope Pius XII. (I thought you opened this thread to gett off the "Pius XII errors issue", and explain his rhythm method?)  






    [/quote

    My mistake. The title of the thread says it all "A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error, In a Certain Moral Teaching".

    Anyhow, you can't separate the two, for you have to prove that Pius XII did not teach error in his allocution.

    Me thinks that your fight is caused by the "attack on Pius XII" more than the issue of NFP. The reason being that it throws a wrench in your theories of popes teaching non-infallible errors not popes. Your defense of Pus XII's teaching on NFP looks just like the defense of the Novus Ordo of the "non infallible" errors of Vatican II. It is almost impossible to prove any heresy or error in Vatican II to them. There is always a place for them to wiggle out.

    All of this does not surprise me, since everyone wiggles out of the clearest infallible DOGMAS on baptism and EENS.

    Offline bowler

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #22 on: November 11, 2013, 09:33:42 AM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    My observations in red:
    Quote from: Ambrose





    The second problem came about when certain writers, not content with correcting modernist abuse of the teaching on the lawful use of the rhythm, actually attacked the orthodox teaching of Pope Pius XII. (I thought you opened this thread to gett off the "Pius XII errors issue", and explain his rhythm method?)  







    My mistake. The title of the thread says it all "A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error, In a Certain Moral Teaching".

    Anyhow, you can't separate the two, for you have to prove that Pius XII did not teach error in his allocution.

    Me thinks that your fight is caused by the "attack on Pius XII" more than the issue of NFP. The reason being that it throws a wrench in your theories of popes teaching non-infallible errors not popes. Your defense of Pus XII's teaching on NFP looks just like the defense of the Novus Ordo of the "non infallible" errors of Vatican II. It is almost impossible to prove any heresy or error in Vatican II to them. There is always a place for them to wiggle out.

    All of this does not surprise me, since everyone today wiggles out of the clearest infallible DOGMAS on baptism and EENS to teach and believe that someone can be saved who has no explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor belief in the Christ of the Trinity. Since they currently can do that, everything is up for grabs.


    Offline bowler

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #23 on: November 11, 2013, 01:39:33 PM »
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  • Correction:

    Quote from: bowler


    Me thinks that your fight is caused by the "attack on Pius XII" more than the details of the issue of NFP. The reason being that you feel that it throws a wrench in your theories that if popes teach even non-infallible errors, they are not popes.

    Offline 2Vermont

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #24 on: November 11, 2013, 03:01:24 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    Quote from: Ladislaus
    I actually brought up on the other thread that Ibranyi's analysis was wrong.

    Nevertheless, Pius XII DID depart from the teaching of Pius XI on the subject of NFP, but for different reasons.  I too shall start my own thread on the subject, starting with my analysis of the differences.  You're right that the other thread has disgressed onto issues regarding infallibility and the nature of papal authority.

    You may find it interesting to note that a majority of Church Fathers taught that it is sinful to have marital relations during infertile times (e.g. when the wife would be pregnant or too old to conceive, etc.)  Pius XII has "come a long way, baby."


    So I guess Pius XI taught error too.  

    No sex for old people!

    This conversation has gotten ridiculous.  I will never understand the need for some to question everything pre-Vatican II as well.  Once we start doing that there is no line drawn and anything goes.


    Where exactly did I say that Pius XI was wrong?  Just because some Church Fathers teach something doesn't mean that it supersedes Church teaching.  I brought it up by way of contrast with Pius XII.


    Clearly if the majority of Church Fathers taught that it was sinful to have marital relations when no longer fertile, then Pius XI shouldn't have taught that it's okay for old people to have sex.  

    Or are you suggesting that he taught that old people shouldn't have sex because they are infertile?

    Offline bowler

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #25 on: November 11, 2013, 03:29:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont


    Clearly if the majority of Church Fathers taught that it was sinful to have marital relations when no longer fertile,


    No one has shown any authority teaching that the majority of Church Fathers taught that it was sinful to have marital relations when no longer fertile. This subject shift is a poor distraction. Take it to another thread, in the Ridiculous Comments Section.

    Pius XI Infallible declared CLEARLY in Casti Connubi:

    Quote
    "No reason, however grave, may be put forward by anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good. Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural power and purpose, sin against nature, and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious … any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God".






    Offline bowler

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #26 on: November 11, 2013, 03:31:01 PM »
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  • Quote from: 2Vermont


    Clearly if the majority of Church Fathers taught that it was sinful to have marital relations when no longer fertile...


    No one has shown any authority teaching that the majority of Church Fathers taught that it was sinful to have marital relations when no longer fertile. This subject shift is a poor distraction. Whoever wants to discuss it further can take it to another thread, in the Ridiculous Comments Section.

    Pius XI Infallible declared CLEARLY in Casti Connubi:

    Quote
    "No reason, however grave, may be put forward by anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good. Since, therefore, the conjugal act is destined primarily by nature for the begetting of children, those who in exercising it deliberately frustrate its natural power and purpose, sin against nature, and commit a deed which is shameful and intrinsically vicious … any use whatsoever of matrimony exercised in such a way that the act is deliberately frustrated in its natural power to generate life is an offense against the law of God".





    Offline 2Vermont

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #27 on: November 11, 2013, 04:04:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: 2Vermont


    Clearly if the majority of Church Fathers taught that it was sinful to have marital relations when no longer fertile...


    No one has shown any authority teaching that the majority of Church Fathers taught that it was sinful to have marital relations when no longer fertile. This subject shift is a poor distraction. Whoever wants to discuss it further can take it to another thread, in the Ridiculous Comments Section.




    Really?  Then perhaps you should redirect your sarcastic, uppity comments to Ladislaus since he was the first one to bring up the topic.

    Edit after the thumb down:  It stinks when you're wrong, huh?  LOL

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #28 on: November 11, 2013, 05:19:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Director,

    I am moving this to its own thread, as you have now exponentially increased the importance of correcting this grave error by bringing forth a docuмent that puts into question the orthodoxy of Pope Pius XII.

    I would like to ask you:  do you actually believe this junk theology as put forth in the diatribe by Richard Ibranyi or are you just confused about this and want help to see where he is wrong?

    Director wrote quoting Richard Ibranyi:

    Quote
    From RJMI...  

    The evidence against Pius XII

    On October 29, 1951, Pius XII taught that in certain cases spouses could practice contraception. This exception came to be known as Natural Family Planning.

    Pius XII, Address given October 29, 1951 to the &#8213;Italian Catholic Union of Midwives&#8214;: 36. It is possible to be exempt, for a lengthy period, and even for the entire duration of the marriage, if there are grave reasons, such as those which not infrequently occur in the so-called &#8213;indications&#8214; of a medical, eugenic, economic, or social nature. For this it follows that observing the non-fertile periods alone can be lawful from the moral point of view. Under the conditions mentioned it really is so.

    The underlined portion is where he has allowed excuses to be put forward (grave reasons) that would allow for the practice of the contraception method of NFP. These same reasons, along with all reasons, have been infallibly condemned by Pope Pius XI as intrinsically evil and against the natural law. Pope Pius XI condemned every reason (excuse) that Pius XII allows.

    Pope Pius XI teaches that no reason (excuse), no matter how grave it may be, can be brought forward to violate a moral law. &#8213;No reason, however grave, may be put forward by anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good.&#8214; Pius XII says, &#8213;There are grave reasons&#8214; that allow for the &#8213;observing of the non-fertile periods alone&#8214; and that this &#8213;can be lawful from the moral point of view.&#8214;

    Pius XII, contradicts, word-for-word, the infallible teachings of Pope Pius XI. He says there are certain grave reasons that allow spouses to deliberately plan to prevent (frustrate) conception when they engage in the marital act, and he declares this practice as not immoral or even a fault, but that it is moral. In this he has contradicted and thus denied a dogma of morals.
    Pope Pius XI specifically condemns the common excuses brought forward by those who practice contraception.

    Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii: Some justify this criminal abuse on the ground that they are weary of children and wish to gratify their desires without their consequent burden. Others say that they cannot on the one hand remain continent nor on the other can they have children because of the difficulties, whether on the part of the mother or on the part of family circuмstances.
    These are the very excuses &#8213;grave reasons&#8214; that Pius XII now allows modern man to bring forward in order to break God‘s moral law.

    The condemned reason (excuse) of &#8213;difficulties… on the part of family circuмstances&#8214; by Pope Pius XI is now allowed by Pius XII that he refers to as the &#8213;economic&#8214; and &#8213;social&#8214; reasons. The condemned reason (excuse) of &#8213;difficulties… on the part of the mother&#8214; by Pope Pius XI is now allowed by Pius XII that he refers to as the &#8213;medical&#8214; reason.

    There was much controversy over Pius XII‘s immoral teaching on October 29. Instead of repudiating it he re-confirmed it the following month, so that there would be no misunderstanding that he was allowing spouses to practice the contraception of Natural Family Planning.

    Pius XII, Address to the &#8213;National Congress of the &#8215;Family Front‘ and the Association of Large Families,&#8214; November 26, 1951: Regulation of Offspring:

    21. The Church knows how to consider with sympathy and understanding the real difficulties of the married state in our day. Therefore, in Our last allocution on conjugal morality, We affirmed the legitimacy and, at the same time, the limits—in truth very wide—of a regulation of offspring, which, unlike so-called &#8215;birth control is compatible with the law of God. One may even hope (but in this matter the Church naturally leaves the judgment to medical science) that science will succeed in providing this licit method with a sufficiently secure basis, and the most recent information seems to confirm such a hope.

    Pius XII refers back to his last allocution on October 29 when he taught the heresy of Natural Family Planning. He affirms that this may be practiced and then lies when he says it is not &#8213;birth control&#8214; and is moral. He also concedes to science what belongs to the Church. No science can make moral what is immoral. He teaches that the regulation of offspring is accomplished by the new scientific technique called Natural Family Planning, and hopes that this technique can be perfected so as to guarantee 100% efficiency so that it would be absolutely impossible for spouses to conceive a child while engaging in the marital act.

    Pius XII is also guilty of modernism by teaching what was condemned as immoral is now moral due to different circuмstances for the &#8213;married state in our day.&#8214;

    First of all, even if the circuмstances were different, no excuse can be brought forward to deny a dogma of faith or morals, even at the cost of a Catholic‘s life. The passing of time and changing circuмstances never allow for the denial of one dogma of faith or morals, and those who teach otherwise are guilty of the heresy of modernism

    “Till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. (Mt. 5:18) Jesus Christ, yesterday, and today: and the same for ever. Be not led away with various and strange doctrines.” (Heb. 13:8-9
    )
    Pope Pius X, Lamentabili Sane, 1907: Condemned propositions: &#8213;53. The organic constitution of the Church is not immutable. Like human society, Christian society is subject to a perpetual evolution.&#8214; &#8213;59. Christ did not teach a determined body of doctrine applicable to all times and all men, but rather inaugurated a religious movement adapted or to be adapted to different times and places. 64. Scientific progress demands that the concepts of Christian doctrine concerning God, creation, revelation, the Person of the Incarnate Word, and Redemption be re-adjusted.&#8214;

    Second, what is different about families in the 20th century than from the past? Have not past centuries had their share of plagues, famines, wars, and other catastrophes? In reality modern men have fewer burdens than men of the past, due to scientific advances in medicine, agriculture, and the ability to make the necessities of life available by faster and more efficient means of transportation and communication. So what is this fabricated family dilemma that Pius XII puts forward as a unique problem of &#8213;our day&#8214;?

    The true dilemma is that modern men are greedier, more covetous, more gluttonous, and more selfish than ever before. In order to maintain their sinful materialistic lifestyle they must limit families because children get in the way of them fulfilling their evil lusts, and evil and inordinate passions. Pius XII is listening to the sinful groan of evil people who want to be liberated from the sweet yoke of Christ in order that they can sin and sin mightily. Pius XII sympathizes with them in their quest to be liberated from God‘s commandments and sin mightily. Not only does he sympathize with them, he aids-and-abets them by giving them a way to break God‘s commandments while quelling their guilty consciences by pretending that Natural Family Planning is not birth control.


    RJMI should not be considered a legitimate source of any Catholic theology.  He gives the "brothers" a run for their money on being the worst possible representative of authentic Catholicism.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline roscoe

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #29 on: November 11, 2013, 05:24:07 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    I actually brought up on the other thread that Ibranyi's analysis was wrong.

    Nevertheless, Pius XII DID depart from the teaching of Pius XI on the subject of NFP, but for different reasons.  I too shall start my own thread on the subject, starting with my analysis of the differences.  You're right that the other thread has disgressed onto issues regarding infallibility and the nature of papal authority.

    You may find it interesting to note that a majority of Church Fathers taught that it is sinful to have marital relations during infertile times (e.g. when the wife would be pregnant or too old to conceive, etc.)  Pius XII has "come a long way, baby."


    On the prev page there is a remark by Ambrose that the term NFP was not in use until after the death of Pius XII. If this is correct then there is no way that Pius XII can be said to have departed from Pius XI on 'NFP' because it didn't exist.  :confused1:
    There Is No Such Thing As 'Sede Vacantism'...
    nor is there such thing as a 'Feeneyite' or 'Feeneyism'