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Author Topic: A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error  (Read 11578 times)

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Offline Ambrose

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Director,

I am moving this to its own thread, as you have now exponentially increased the importance of correcting this grave error by bringing forth a docuмent that puts into question the orthodoxy of Pope Pius XII.

I would like to ask you:  do you actually believe this junk theology as put forth in the diatribe by Richard Ibranyi or are you just confused about this and want help to see where he is wrong?

Director wrote quoting Richard Ibranyi:

Quote
From RJMI...  

The evidence against Pius XII

On October 29, 1951, Pius XII taught that in certain cases spouses could practice contraception. This exception came to be known as Natural Family Planning.

Pius XII, Address given October 29, 1951 to the ―Italian Catholic Union of Midwives‖: 36. It is possible to be exempt, for a lengthy period, and even for the entire duration of the marriage, if there are grave reasons, such as those which not infrequently occur in the so-called ―indications‖ of a medical, eugenic, economic, or social nature. For this it follows that observing the non-fertile periods alone can be lawful from the moral point of view. Under the conditions mentioned it really is so.

The underlined portion is where he has allowed excuses to be put forward (grave reasons) that would allow for the practice of the contraception method of NFP. These same reasons, along with all reasons, have been infallibly condemned by Pope Pius XI as intrinsically evil and against the natural law. Pope Pius XI condemned every reason (excuse) that Pius XII allows.

Pope Pius XI teaches that no reason (excuse), no matter how grave it may be, can be brought forward to violate a moral law. ―No reason, however grave, may be put forward by anything intrinsically against nature may become conformable to nature and morally good.‖ Pius XII says, ―There are grave reasons‖ that allow for the ―observing of the non-fertile periods alone‖ and that this ―can be lawful from the moral point of view.‖

Pius XII, contradicts, word-for-word, the infallible teachings of Pope Pius XI. He says there are certain grave reasons that allow spouses to deliberately plan to prevent (frustrate) conception when they engage in the marital act, and he declares this practice as not immoral or even a fault, but that it is moral. In this he has contradicted and thus denied a dogma of morals.
Pope Pius XI specifically condemns the common excuses brought forward by those who practice contraception.

Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii: Some justify this criminal abuse on the ground that they are weary of children and wish to gratify their desires without their consequent burden. Others say that they cannot on the one hand remain continent nor on the other can they have children because of the difficulties, whether on the part of the mother or on the part of family circuмstances.
These are the very excuses ―grave reasons‖ that Pius XII now allows modern man to bring forward in order to break God‘s moral law.

The condemned reason (excuse) of ―difficulties… on the part of family circuмstances‖ by Pope Pius XI is now allowed by Pius XII that he refers to as the ―economic‖ and ―social‖ reasons. The condemned reason (excuse) of ―difficulties… on the part of the mother‖ by Pope Pius XI is now allowed by Pius XII that he refers to as the ―medical‖ reason.

There was much controversy over Pius XII‘s immoral teaching on October 29. Instead of repudiating it he re-confirmed it the following month, so that there would be no misunderstanding that he was allowing spouses to practice the contraception of Natural Family Planning.

Pius XII, Address to the ―National Congress of the ‗Family Front‘ and the Association of Large Families,‖ November 26, 1951: Regulation of Offspring:

21. The Church knows how to consider with sympathy and understanding the real difficulties of the married state in our day. Therefore, in Our last allocution on conjugal morality, We affirmed the legitimacy and, at the same time, the limits—in truth very wide—of a regulation of offspring, which, unlike so-called ‗birth control is compatible with the law of God. One may even hope (but in this matter the Church naturally leaves the judgment to medical science) that science will succeed in providing this licit method with a sufficiently secure basis, and the most recent information seems to confirm such a hope.

Pius XII refers back to his last allocution on October 29 when he taught the heresy of Natural Family Planning. He affirms that this may be practiced and then lies when he says it is not ―birth control‖ and is moral. He also concedes to science what belongs to the Church. No science can make moral what is immoral. He teaches that the regulation of offspring is accomplished by the new scientific technique called Natural Family Planning, and hopes that this technique can be perfected so as to guarantee 100% efficiency so that it would be absolutely impossible for spouses to conceive a child while engaging in the marital act.

Pius XII is also guilty of modernism by teaching what was condemned as immoral is now moral due to different circuмstances for the ―married state in our day.‖

First of all, even if the circuмstances were different, no excuse can be brought forward to deny a dogma of faith or morals, even at the cost of a Catholic‘s life. The passing of time and changing circuмstances never allow for the denial of one dogma of faith or morals, and those who teach otherwise are guilty of the heresy of modernism

“Till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled. (Mt. 5:18) Jesus Christ, yesterday, and today: and the same for ever. Be not led away with various and strange doctrines.” (Heb. 13:8-9
)
Pope Pius X, Lamentabili Sane, 1907: Condemned propositions: ―53. The organic constitution of the Church is not immutable. Like human society, Christian society is subject to a perpetual evolution.‖ ―59. Christ did not teach a determined body of doctrine applicable to all times and all men, but rather inaugurated a religious movement adapted or to be adapted to different times and places. 64. Scientific progress demands that the concepts of Christian doctrine concerning God, creation, revelation, the Person of the Incarnate Word, and Redemption be re-adjusted.‖

Second, what is different about families in the 20th century than from the past? Have not past centuries had their share of plagues, famines, wars, and other catastrophes? In reality modern men have fewer burdens than men of the past, due to scientific advances in medicine, agriculture, and the ability to make the necessities of life available by faster and more efficient means of transportation and communication. So what is this fabricated family dilemma that Pius XII puts forward as a unique problem of ―our day‖?

The true dilemma is that modern men are greedier, more covetous, more gluttonous, and more selfish than ever before. In order to maintain their sinful materialistic lifestyle they must limit families because children get in the way of them fulfilling their evil lusts, and evil and inordinate passions. Pius XII is listening to the sinful groan of evil people who want to be liberated from the sweet yoke of Christ in order that they can sin and sin mightily. Pius XII sympathizes with them in their quest to be liberated from God‘s commandments and sin mightily. Not only does he sympathize with them, he aids-and-abets them by giving them a way to break God‘s commandments while quelling their guilty consciences by pretending that Natural Family Planning is not birth control.
The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


Offline Ambrose

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A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2013, 12:28:43 AM »
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  • The Remaining portion of the charge by Ibranyi quoted by Director:

    Quote
    Pope Pius XI teaches, ―no reason, however grave,

    may be put forward by anything intrinsically against nature,

    ‖ which means not even the death of the mother can be prevented at the cost of killing the child or visa-versa (See: Medical Condition, danger to the mother or child, does not excuse p.12).

    One of the grave reasons brought forward by NFP defenders to justify its use is extreme poverty. Yet, Pope Pius XI specifically condemns this along with all reasons.

    Pope Pius XI, Casti Connubii: We are deeply touched by the sufferings of those parents who, in extreme want, experience great difficulty in rearing their children. However, they should take care lest the calamitous state of their external affairs should be the occasion for a much more calamitous error.
    No difficulty can arise that justifies putting aside the law of God which prohibits all acts intrinsically evil. There is no possible circuмstance in which husband and wife cannot, strengthened by the Grace of God, fulfill faithfully their duties and preserve in wedlock their chastity unspotted.

    This truth of Christian faith is expressed by the teaching of the Council of Trent: ―Let no one be so rash as to assert that which the Fathers of the Council have placed under anathema, namely that there are precepts of God impossible for the just to observe.

    God does not ask the impossible, but by His commands, instructs you to do what you are able, to pray for what you are not able that He may help you.‖
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Pelele

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #2 on: November 11, 2013, 12:36:19 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Director,

    I am moving this to its own thread, as you have now exponentially increased the importance of correcting this grave error by bringing forth a docuмent that puts into question the orthodoxy of Pope Pius XII.

    I would like to ask you:  do you actually believe this junk theology as put forth in the diatribe by Richard Ibranyi or are you just confused about this and want help to see where he is wrong?


    Crazy as Ibranyi is on some things, he seems right on this. NFP is camouflaged birth control plain and simple. The end result is to avoid children while enjoying the marital act. The Novus Ordo sect even offers it as an "alternative" instead of artificial birth control.

    But you believe opposing this birth control method in disguise is a "grave error". Woe to you.

    The "catholics" at fisheaters prove how wicked this is. It is all about lust and engaging in the marital act for pleasure only. I've read posts of them saying how they just "can't wait" for the 3 weeks of "abstinence" to be over or things to that effect.

    But why are you speaking about questioning the orthodoxy of Pius XII when you believe these abominable antichrist apostate vatican 2 antipopoes are still valid popes? Ridiculous.

    Offline Ambrose

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #3 on: November 11, 2013, 12:37:31 AM »
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  • Director wrote:

    Quote
    On October 29, 1951, Pius XII taught that in certain cases spouses could practice contraception. This exception came to be known as Natural Family Planning.


    In this first sentence, the reader can easily see the intent of the writer.  Pope Pius XII never used the term contraception.  The common meaning of the word contraception is an artificial method of blocking conception.  This type of wording is not only inaccurate, it is misleading.

    Secondly,  Pope Pius XII cannot be faulted for the change in terms that happened after his death.  The new term, NFP does not signify what Pius XII taught, and he never used the term, so it is unjust to attribute that term with his teaching in any way.  

    Natural Family Planning as it is commonly understood today, is more than just an exception, it is an overall plan that organizes when the children will come, how many children, and the spacing between children.  

    To connect Pope Pius XII with this perversion of his teaching that became known as NFP is a grave injustice to him personally, and to his teaching.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Ambrose

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #4 on: November 11, 2013, 12:41:33 AM »
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  • Quote from: Pelele
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Director,

    I am moving this to its own thread, as you have now exponentially increased the importance of correcting this grave error by bringing forth a docuмent that puts into question the orthodoxy of Pope Pius XII.

    I would like to ask you:  do you actually believe this junk theology as put forth in the diatribe by Richard Ibranyi or are you just confused about this and want help to see where he is wrong?


    Crazy as Ibranyi is on some things, he seems right on this. NFP is camouflaged birth control plain and simple. The end result is to avoid children while enjoying the marital act. The Novus Ordo sect even offers it as an "alternative" instead of artificial birth control.

    But you believe opposing this birth control method in disguise is a "grave error". Woe to you.

    The "catholics" at fisheaters prove how wicked this is. It is all about lust and engaging in the marital act for pleasure only. I've read posts of them saying how they just "can't wait" for the 3 weeks of "abstinence" to be over or things to that effect.

    But why are you speaking about questioning the orthodoxy of Pius XII when you believe these abominable antichrist apostate vatican 2 antipopoes are still valid popes? Ridiculous.


    Have the Dimonds and Ibranyi really spread their errors this far?  It seems like their followers are multiplying everywhere.   I will pray for you Pelele and I am sorry if they have caused you to doubt the binding teaching of Pope Pius XII on this matter.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Pelele

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #5 on: November 11, 2013, 12:47:17 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Have the Dimonds and Ibranyi really spread their errors this far?  It seems like their followers are multiplying everywhere.   I will pray for you Pelele and I am sorry if they have caused you to doubt the binding teaching of Pope Pius XII on this matter.


    How about you actually raise up some arguments? Isn't this why you made this thread to begin with?

    Address in particular the fact that you seem eager to defend the orthdoxy of Pope Pius XII when you believe these antichrists from the Vatican 2 are still valid Popes.

    If you believe those are real popes, what are you doing with this thread since anything goes?

    Even the neocatechumenal heretics from the novus ordo oppose NFP.

    Imagine that!

    And note: i do not regard neither the Dimonds nor Ibranyi as real Catholics.

    Offline Ambrose

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #6 on: November 11, 2013, 12:59:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: Pelele
    Quote from: Ambrose
    Have the Dimonds and Ibranyi really spread their errors this far?  It seems like their followers are multiplying everywhere.   I will pray for you Pelele and I am sorry if they have caused you to doubt the binding teaching of Pope Pius XII on this matter.


    How about you actually raise up some arguments? Isn't this why you made this thread to begin with?

    Address in particular the fact that you seem eager to defend the orthdoxy of Pope Pius XII when you believe these antichrists from the Vatican 2 are still valid Popes.

    If you believe those are real popes, what are you doing with this thread since anything goes?

    Even the neocatechumenal heretics from the novus ordo oppose NFP.

    Imagine that!

    And note: i do not regard neither the Dimonds nor Ibranyi as real Catholics.


    Quote
    How about you actually raise up some arguments? Isn't this why you made this thread to begin with?


    I am getting to it, be patient.  I just started this thread only minutes ago, and I intend to finish it, whether it takes days or weeks.

    Quote
    Address in particular the fact that you seem eager to defend the orthdoxy of Pope Pius XII when you believe these antichrists from the Vatican 2 are still valid Popes.


    Obviously you have not read much by me or you would not have made that assumption.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Pelele

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #7 on: November 11, 2013, 01:07:49 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Obviously you have not read much by me or you would not have made that assumption.


    Maybe i confused you with someone else. Are you a sede?


    Online Ladislaus

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #8 on: November 11, 2013, 04:22:14 AM »
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  • I actually brought up on the other thread that Ibranyi's analysis was wrong.

    Nevertheless, Pius XII DID depart from the teaching of Pius XI on the subject of NFP, but for different reasons.  I too shall start my own thread on the subject, starting with my analysis of the differences.  You're right that the other thread has disgressed onto issues regarding infallibility and the nature of papal authority.

    You may find it interesting to note that a majority of Church Fathers taught that it is sinful to have marital relations during infertile times (e.g. when the wife would be pregnant or too old to conceive, etc.)  Pius XII has "come a long way, baby."

    Offline 2Vermont

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #9 on: November 11, 2013, 04:34:01 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    I actually brought up on the other thread that Ibranyi's analysis was wrong.

    Nevertheless, Pius XII DID depart from the teaching of Pius XI on the subject of NFP, but for different reasons.  I too shall start my own thread on the subject, starting with my analysis of the differences.  You're right that the other thread has disgressed onto issues regarding infallibility and the nature of papal authority.

    You may find it interesting to note that a majority of Church Fathers taught that it is sinful to have marital relations during infertile times (e.g. when the wife would be pregnant or too old to conceive, etc.)  Pius XII has "come a long way, baby."


    So I guess Pius XI taught error too.  

    No sex for old people!

    This conversation has gotten ridiculous.  I will never understand the need for some to question everything pre-Vatican II as well.  Once we start doing that there is no line drawn and anything goes.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)

    Offline RonCal26

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #10 on: November 11, 2013, 05:45:43 AM »
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  • To be honest,

    As a traditional Catholic, I am confused in regarding the Catholic Church's stance on natural family planning.

    I am even unsure about the orthodoxy of Paul VI's encyclical on birth control, Humanae Vitae?

    After perusing an article on the BBC, it said that Pope Paul VI allowed natural forms of birth control (where one may engage in intercourse during the woman's infertile periods), however artificial birth control was strictly prohibited.

    I wish someone can explain the traditional Catholic teachings on these issues.  
    I'm a Roman Catholic who upholds the sedevacantist position.


    Offline Ambrose

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #11 on: November 11, 2013, 07:30:48 AM »
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  • Quote from: RonCal26
    To be honest,

    As a traditional Catholic, I am confused in regarding the Catholic Church's stance on natural family planning.

    I am even unsure about the orthodoxy of Paul VI's encyclical on birth control, Humanae Vitae?

    After perusing an article on the BBC, it said that Pope Paul VI allowed natural forms of birth control (where one may engage in intercourse during the woman's infertile periods), however artificial birth control was strictly prohibited.

    I wish someone can explain the traditional Catholic teachings on these issues.  


    RonCal,

    There was no confusion on this issue, until the liberals twisted Pope Pius XII's teaching, and using the new renamed term, Natural Family Planning, allowed the floodgates to open with all sorts of novelties.

    The second problem came about when certain writers, not content with correcting modernist abuse of the teaching on the lawful use of the rhythm, actually attacked the orthodox teaching of Pope Pius XII.  

    The truth can be found if you read Casti Connubii Pius XI, and in the  Address to the midwives by Pius XII, October 29, 1951, AAS 43 (1951). Do not let anyone confuse on this point, Pope Pius XII's teaching on this is authoritative, therefore it is safe, and it does bind Catholics under pain of serious sin to believe it.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline bowler

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #12 on: November 11, 2013, 07:59:42 AM »
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  • Quote
    Bowler wrote:
    What is called NFP today is advertised as being as effective at birth avoidance as the pill, that is 99.99%. THAT method was unknown at the time of Pius XII allocution to the midwives. One can't use Pius XII allocution to justify the use of NFP of today for any reason. Modern NFP changes everything, and requires fallible speculation by conciliarists "theologians"


    What I wrote above is NOW moot, it is wrong. I stand corrected based on the following posting where Pius XII said that he hopes it'll be a secure method in the future:

    "One may even hope (but in this matter the Church naturally leaves the judgment to medical science) that science will succeed in providing this licit method with a sufficiently secure basis, and the most recent information seems to confirm such a hope".


    Quote
    21. The Church knows how to consider with sympathy and understanding the real difficulties of the married state in our day. Therefore, in Our last allocution on conjugal morality, We affirmed the legitimacy and, at the same time, the limits—in truth very wide—of a regulation of offspring, which, unlike so-called ‗birth control is compatible with the law of God. One may even hope (but in this matter the Church naturally leaves the judgment to medical science) that science will succeed in providing this licit method with a sufficiently secure basis, and the most recent information seems to confirm such a hope.

    Pius XII refers back to his last allocution on October 29 when he taught the heresy of Natural Family Planning. He affirms that this may be practiced and then lies when he says it is not ―birth control‖ and is moral. He also concedes to science what belongs to the Church. No science can make moral what is immoral. He teaches that the regulation of offspring is accomplished by the new scientific technique called Natural Family Planning, and hopes that this technique can be perfected so as to guarantee 100% efficiency so that it would be absolutely impossible for spouses to conceive a child while engaging in the marital act.



    Offline bowler

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #13 on: November 11, 2013, 08:18:34 AM »
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  • My observations in red:
    Quote from: Ambrose


    There was no confusion on this issue, until the liberals twisted Pope Pius XII's teaching, and using the new renamed term, Natural Family Planning, allowed the floodgates to open with all sorts of novelties. (giving Pius XII's teaching the name "planning" does not change anything. You have not explained anything)


    The second problem came about when certain writers, not content with correcting modernist abuse of the teaching on the lawful use of the rhythm, actually attacked the orthodox teaching of Pope Pius XII. (I thought you opened this thread to gett off the "Pius XII errors issue", and explain his rhythm method?)  


    The truth can be found if you read Casti Connubii Pius XI, and in the  Address to the midwives by Pius XII, October 29, 1951, AAS 43 (1951). Do not let anyone confuse on this point, Pope Pius XII's teaching on this is authoritative, therefore it is safe, and it does bind Catholics under pain of serious sin to believe it. (What is his teaching that Ibranji has not expalined? You have to address Ibranji's point, and not just say "Pope Pius XII's teaching on this is authoritative, therefore it is safe, and it does bind Catholics under pain of serious sin to believe it". Here's the two sides: Ibranji says the couple can only abstain or else engage in the marital act without "consulting charts". You say that it is OK to "consult the charts", and not have children for financial reasons, among other reasons. The Novus Ordo says the same.)





    Offline bowler

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    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #14 on: November 11, 2013, 08:22:30 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ambrose

    Have the Dimonds and Ibranyi really spread their errors this far?  It seems like their followers are multiplying everywhere.


    They have "spread" because they make common sense, while you have not made a good case. I have no dog in this debate, I'm just telling you what I see so far. You are not making a good case.

    I don't see the difference between Pius XII's "rhythm method" which he said basically that  he hopes will be 100% safe in the future, and the modern NFP.