Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error  (Read 12218 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 2Vermont

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 11371
  • Reputation: +6345/-1104
  • Gender: Female
A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
« Reply #105 on: November 16, 2013, 02:53:49 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Ambrose
    Stubborn wrote:

    Quote
    The SV opinion is that a true pope cannot teach heresy - period. A true pope cannot lose his office by virtue of doing that which he cannot do, namely, teach heresy. The SV opinion is that if a true pope were able to teach heresy, that act of teaching heresy from a true pope would destroy the doctrine of papal infallibility and the indefectibility of the Church - is this not so?


    In order to lose one's membership in the Church, the heresy must be both public and pertinacious.  

    If the public heresy of a Pope was professed to a private audience, in a sermon, etc., then it would not conflict with the indefectibility of the Church.  If the Pope attempted to bind Catholics to a heresy or a grave error against the Faith by authoritatively or especially infallibly teaching it to the universal Church, then we could have certainty that he was not a Pope.  This act of the "Pope" would conflict with the indefectibility of the Church.

    Quote
    o for any SV who believes that PPXII is a true pope, they have no need or reason to question his teaching on NFP, rather, they are bound to "blindly" accept it completely, having full confidence that his teaching on NFP is guaranteed free from the possibility of error. End of story.


    The term, "blindly," is not an accurate term, but otherwise, I agree with your point.  Catholics are duty bound to give their assent to the Pope's universal non-infallible teaching on matters of Faith and morals taught to the universal Church.  To refuse to give assent is the matter for mortal sin.  

    The Pope's teaching on the lawful use of the sterile times was not an ex Cathedra pronouncement, therefore it is not infallibly true, but it is infallibly safe.  

    As I have said before of this forum, and will keep saying, Pope Pius XII never used the term, "natural family planning," or "NFP," so this term should not be attributed to him or used for a description of what he taught.  The term is vague, and it means different things to different people.  

    Quote
    OTOH, SVs who question or otherwise believe that his teaching on NFP is  heretical, should agree that since no true pope can teach heresy, that PPXII was never a true pope to begin with.


    Those who refuse to accept Pope Pius XII's teaching on the lawful use of the sterile times, in marriage, for certain grave reasons, are absolutely wrong, and have no ground to stand on.

    They look through the Fathers in support of their attack against Pius XII's teaching but among the Fathers, there is no specific teaching directly and explicitly stating that the use of the sterile times is a form of blocking procreation.  

    Our Lord gave us this divinely created and protected office to give us a constant voice of authority for situations just like this.  When Pope Pius XII taught, and therefore bound, the universal Church to this teaching, he used the power Our Lord gave him when He said "he who hears you, hears me." (Luke 10:16). To refuse to assent and believe Christ's Vicar, Pope Pius XII, is to refuse to hear Christ.

    This teaching given by pope Pius XII cannot be used as a demonstration that Pius XII taught heresy to the universal Church.  Those that make such allegations are fomenting schism, they, through their grave ignorance are further dividing the Church.

    Quote
    There can be no such a thing as a true pope "losing his office because he taught heresy" - either he was the pope and his teaching is true or his teaching is heretical and he was never a pope.


    This is a disputed point.  St. Robert Bellarmine thought as a pious opinion that a Pope would never become a heretic, and thereby fall from office.  But, the matter is not certain.  

    It seems likely that St. Robert was right on this, and that a Pope who is a manifest public heretic was never Pope to begin with.  I believe this is the case with Paul VI.


    So, what I was trying to get at was if the posters here want to claim that PPXII taught heresy then they must accept the fact that they are then, in effect, calling him an anti-pope.

    Offline Matto

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 6882
    • Reputation: +3852/-406
    • Gender: Male
    • Love God and Play, Do Good Work and Pray
    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #106 on: November 16, 2013, 02:58:27 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: 2Vermont
    So, what I was trying to get at was if the posters here want to claim that PPXII taught heresy then they must accept the fact that they are then, in effect, calling him an anti-pope.

    This is not true. A true Pope can teach heresy, as long as he does it out of ignorance and of course non-infallibly. He may teach heresy that he does not know is heresy. It is only after he is shown the truth and then rejects the truth that he becomes a formal heretic and loses his office (according to the sedevacantists).
    R.I.P.
    Please pray for the repose of my soul.


    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11371
    • Reputation: +6345/-1104
    • Gender: Female
    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #107 on: November 16, 2013, 03:01:35 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Matto
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    So, what I was trying to get at was if the posters here want to claim that PPXII taught heresy then they must accept the fact that they are then, in effect, calling him an anti-pope.

    This is not true. A true Pope can teach heresy, as long as he does it out of ignorance and of course non-infallibly. He may teach heresy that he does not know is heresy. It is only after he is shown the truth and then rejects the truth that he becomes a formal heretic and loses his office (according to the sedevacantists).

    OK, thank you.  I didn't think I was clear on this.

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18177
    • Reputation: +8277/-692
    • Gender: Male
    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #108 on: November 16, 2013, 06:24:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • .

    Most sedes today uphold the Papacy of Pius XII as if it's some kind
    of shining city on a hill:  untouchable, immaculate, pure, irreproachable,
    and then the stark contrast with John XXIII who began from the first
    moment with a NAME that had been moth-balled since over 500 years,
    not for lack of interest, but because the last pope to use the name
    was a huge embarrassment -- you know, like Francis is.

    Pius XII was fortunate to live in a time when being an embarrassment
    was something to be AVOIDED, and he managed to pull that off okay.  

    Unlike Francis.  

    Now, one might think that a pontifical embarrassment is some kind of
    achievement to be desired or whatever.

    So it's hard to see the shortcomings of Pius XII in context of the bad
    examples that followed him.  While he did have some stellar moments,
    and one shining example for all time, the definition of the Assumption of
    Our Lady body and soul into heaven, and a lot of other good points and
    works such as the protection of refugee Jews who were fleeing nαzι
    Germany, and the general protection of the Traditions of the Church in
    a time when they were under severe attack, not all was so great in
    his reign.  There were several key negatives, which should not be
    forgotten.  

    The first and most deleterious act was his reform of Holy Week, which
    had NO PURPOSE.  It was the most ancient of all the liturgy in the
    year and it therefore survived for 1,900 + years
    only to be treated
    with utter contempt during the pontificate of this same Pius XII.  And
    there was utterly NO REASON to change it, that is, unless you consider
    what was going to happen over the next 18 years.

    But was the Pope PLANNING those changes?  We don't think so.  And
    so why were they made?  Was he unaware of them being made?  I've
    never heard that he was, and I'm under the impression that he was
    the celebrant using the changed Holy Week liturgy the year it was
    first used.  Is that not correct?  

    Other than Holy Week, Pius XII was the pope who brought in Annibale
    Bugnini and posted him in the office of the Reform of the Liturgy.  That
    was an office that had not existed before.  It was a NEW OFFICE that
    Pius XII had started, with Bugnini as the head official, and the rest is
    history.  There was NO REASON to change the liturgy.  The proof of this
    is in the fact that hundreds of chapels all over the world are using the
    same liturgy that had been changed, and it's JUST FINE.  That's not a
    small problem.

    And there were other things.  He trucked in a new Psalter.  Why do
    that?  Once again:  NO REASON.  The first edition of the new Psalter
    was a flop, though, and they had to re-do it with another new edition.
    But there was NOTHING WRONG WITH THE OLD EDITION.  

    And so on.  So the papacy of Pius XII was not spotless.  But neither
    was it heretical.  He did not teach heresy.  But the fact that he did
    not teach heresy does not mean that his papacy was therefore
    irreproachable.

    The problem sedes have with this is they want Pius XII to be the
    squeaky-clean role model and benchmark standard of greatness, and
    any question or spotlight on a folly, however small (and some were not
    small, as we have seen above) is an act of heresy in itself.  Well, no,
    it's not.  And if it were not for this Pollyanna attitude, we would not
    have to mention the problems.  It's the attitude that IS the problem.

    Pius XII was a good pope.  He did not teach heresy;  but he did bring
    some long-lasting problems into the Church, most of which we are
    still living with today.


    .
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline bowler

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3299
    • Reputation: +15/-2
    • Gender: Male
    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #109 on: November 17, 2013, 01:45:19 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • My comments in red:

    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    I have made a mistake in continuing to discuss this.  I should have stopped pages ago.  At the end of the day, if you think it's OK to reject the teaching of Pius XII, then you will.  Your walls of quotes aren't impressive, not a single one of them proves what you are trying to prove.  (Then absolutely nothing about the faith could ever be proved to you, since I've never seen a more one sided case where all the quotes from Fathers, saints, and doctors are posted by Allmonks side, and you have not posted one. )You are interpreting in light of your position, but we should allow the Church to interpret things for us (the Church is the unanimous opinion of the Fathers, it is infallible, and so is Pius XI's Casti Conubi. So what church do you belong to?) .  Moral theologians and popes teach NFP.  I'm sure you'll understand that their opinion is far weightier than yours (Prior to 1950's, some modern moral theologians taught NFP, so what? You are just one of those seeking teachers according to your own desires)  I will not reply again, because I have made my case.  After reading your last reply, it would appear that you have made yours.  I am not going to repeat myself any longer, and I don't think you will either.(  


    Offline 2Vermont

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 11371
    • Reputation: +6345/-1104
    • Gender: Female
    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #110 on: November 17, 2013, 09:04:19 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Matto
    Quote from: 2Vermont
    So, what I was trying to get at was if the posters here want to claim that PPXII taught heresy then they must accept the fact that they are then, in effect, calling him an anti-pope.

    This is not true. A true Pope can teach heresy, as long as he does it out of ignorance and of course non-infallibly. He may teach heresy that he does not know is heresy. It is only after he is shown the truth and then rejects the truth that he becomes a formal heretic and loses his office (according to the sedevacantists).

     
    I'm now reading this again and I'm still not sure I agree.  Shouldn't a pope "know" what is heresy and what is not?  How does one get to be pope and be ignorant of the Catholic Faith?  This is the Pope not Joe Scmoe in the pews.

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8700
    • Reputation: +1159/-864
    • Gender: Male
    A Defense of Pope Pius XII Against a False Allegation That He Taught Error
    « Reply #111 on: November 17, 2013, 09:40:20 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The head of the Church can't claim ignorance, especially when he has been made aware of his error.  

    If he could then anyone could be "Pope" no matter how ignorant.  Again no purpose to the papacy.  He can err all the time because he does not know better.  "The Devil is God"?   Oh he just doesn't know better.  He is still Pope.

    Get out of here.

    The anti-SV have to come up with things that eliminate any purpose to anything.  Whether be the Mass, Sacraments, Canon Law, Councils, Doctrine oh he just didn't know better.  

    Oh nothing means anything its all relative.  Who needs a pope for anything since he doesn't have to know anything and it does matter whether he errs or not?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church