Quote from: DoubtingThomas

Today it surely would be more difficult than it might have been when Paul VI was "there", but nobody ever tried, not even then. Regardless of its highly unlikely success, it's a duty that our Shepherds have failed to do.

I insist that the hierarchy did try, but that this attempt has been consciously prevented from reaching us by those who have power over society and the media, which is why Fɾҽҽmαsσɳɾყ has first made great effort to deprive the Church of the support of sæcular princes before all forces were joined against the Apostolic See, which has led to the present situation, where the Shepherds sound their voice without the majority of people hearing it.

I don't think we are defeated, I don't think the infiltrators have won. I think the infiltrators have made a remarkable job at convincing many that we have been defeated instead.

I don't know how to win this battle, I'm not theologian, or expert, I just know out of Faith that it is not lost, and we will win.

Quote from: DoubtingThomas

You see, all this reasoning lead to a "can't do anything about it" attitude.

That's wrong, and the Bishops have a duty to do something, or at least to try.

More than 50 years delay on that duty, and counting...

This is your answer to my statement that Bergoglio must be removed from the Vatican by force?

Nope, is this one:

Removing a Pope is Shepherd's business, we're sheep, we don't rule over the Shepherds.
That would be revolution, coup d'etat, and that is not the Catholic way.
A trial is the procedure, and history shows it was done before.
It's a Bishop's task, not for Lay men.

I don't think we are defeated, I don't think the infiltrators have won. I think the infiltrators have made a remarkable job at convincing many that we have been defeated instead.

I don't know how to win this battle, I'm not theologian, or expert, I just know out of Faith that it is not lost, and we will win.

The infiltrants have not won, and the world will be forced to accept this on her knees when the Church will be exalted. Those who claim that the enemies of God have succeeded in changing her divine constitution, however, are the ones who are basically saying that the Church has failed.

Removing a Pope is Shepherd's business, we're sheep, we don't rule over the Shepherds.
That would be revolution, coup d'etat, and that is not the Catholic way.
A trial is the procedure, and history shows it was done before.
It's a Bishop's task, not for Lay men.

It has already been clarified that we are not speaking of a Pope, but of an imposter. Imposters are removed by force.

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: DoubtingThomas

Is it ok, in your opinion, that not even one single Catholic Traditionalist Bishop has ever tried to start a trial for Heresy against them?

Is it ok, in your opinion, that nobody has lifted a finger to get them removed from a seat that does not belong to them?

Is it better, in your opinion, to consecrate Bishops/Priests independently while a false Pope leads the flock into perdition?

I know this was not directed at me but . . . .well, so what lol.

It was not possible for anyone - Bishop or anyone - to start any trial against the heresies because no one was never allowed to argue before a proper forum. Individual members of the clergy - regardless of their rank - who did not go along with the Conciliar Program were simply expelled and replaced - usually just expelled.

The result was public protests - sometimes right under the Pope's window.

There was never any talk of the pope being voted out or removed, the reason being that Christ did not set the Church up this way.

I do not claim to know the "technical details" about how a Pope can be removed from the Seat.

But there must be a way, someone must know it, and it must be somebody's duty to make it happen.

"Can't do anything", "sit and watch", is not the way.

Well, even the thought of "being able to do something about it" is relatively new - prior to V2 and certainly the early 80s, the idea was unheard of.

One reason no one can do anything about it because Our Lord did not include any means of dethroning the pope when He established the Church.

We know there are lay people, priests and bishops who believe it their responsibility to save the Church from an heretical pope, but that never was their assignment. Had the clergy remained faithful to their assignment and taken care of the flock best as they could and admit that the hierarchical structure of the Church and the papacy never was their business, perhaps things would have turned out better - perhaps not - but we'll never know now.

We also know there are Bulls written that some use as a means of justification to declare that that the pope is not the pope - now we see there is another Bull stating trad clergy are not clergy. Personally, I disagree with those interpretations and find no justification within them for either position.

Can I have a look at the record?

http://www.cathinfo.com/catholic.php/McKenna-interview

http://www.bostonphoenix.com/boston/news_features/top/features/docuмents/02320490.htm